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For Pakistan, time to try India as a friend (resurrection)

You are giving too much credit to New Delhi...It is quite clear that we don't have a policy on how to deal with Pakistan...We are a confused lot...Some fine day we say no talks till blah blah blah...and some day we say let's talk as that is the only way....

I don't think Nee delhi is happy in maintaining status quo however since current status quo is favoring us Pak needs to bring a lot to the table to get any meaningful settlement(from their perspective)....

Shhhh..Trade secrets are not allowed to be revealed.;)

On a serious note - I agree. Intentionally or not (more chances) a state of status -quo has been formed that is being favorable to us. If there is an ounce of Chanakya-neeti left in the South Block they would serve the nation well by just maintaining the status quo and prolonging the conflict at the same time taking care not to escalate it beyond a threshold.

But then that is where our democracy kicks in - the opposition party (both UPA and NDA whichever is there) will never miss a chance to remind the Govt how it is a political suicide to enter into any sort of agreement that is seen as a 'compromise' with Pakistan. Tada..back to square one.
 
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Shhhh..Trade secrets are not allowed to be revealed.;)
lol...

On a serious note - I agree. Intentionally or not (more chances) a state of status -quo has been formed that is being favorable to us. If there is an ounce of Chanakya-neeti left in the South Block they would serve the nation well by just maintaining the status quo and prolonging the conflict at the same time taking care not to escalate it beyond a threshold.

But then that is where our democracy kicks in - the opposition party (both UPA and NDA whichever is there) will never miss a chance to remind the Govt how it is a political suicide to enter into any sort of agreement that is seen as a 'compromise' with Pakistan. Tada..back to square one.
I agree...that is why i said Pak needs to bring on to the table a lot to convince new delhi that cracking a deal is favorable...However doing that they risk ire backhome...so we are back to square one...Kashmir issue has been made so huge that it is now a matter of pride...I doubt any side will move even an inch...
 
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I agree...that is why i said Pak needs to bring on to the table a lot to convince new delhi that cracking a deal is favorable...However doing that they risk ire backhome...so we are back to square one...Kashmir issue has been made so huge that it is now a matter of pride...I doubt any side will move even an inch...

I firmly believe that if an agreement is reached b/n India and Pak on Kashmir it will be between a civ govt in India and a general in Pindi. No other way about it. And yes Kashmir issue transitioned from being a political dispute to a religious dispute to just a matter of pride between the two countries. Sort of "lets see whose the last man standing".

The only possible solution I can think of of legalizing the status quo whose time is yet to come, not now. ;)
 
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You can think that it is the exact way we want the Pak generals to think to lure them into an un-winnable arms race and and the downward spiral accompanying with it.

Sadly the day you realize that you have been played, it would have been too late.

Well you do know that what's the biggest bone of contention between India and Pakistan, right ? It's the Kashmir issue. Stop chanting that Kashmir is the Atoot Ang of India,solve it so we all can move on. The average Pakistanis would stop falling for the cunning schemes of the Generals and would eventually try India as a friend. Be the big man and help us try you as a friend.
 
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Well you do know that what's the biggest bone of contention between India and Pakistan, right ? It's the Kashmir issue. Stop chanting that Kashmir is the Atoot Ang of India,solve it so we all can move on. The average Pakistanis would stop falling for the cunning schemes of the Generals and would eventually try India as a friend. Be the big man and help us try you as a friend.

Our country's dignity is worth more to us than Pakistan's friendship. Jammu & Kashmir is an integral part of India, and we have no interest in the other side of Kashmir. Your own people in cities like Karachi are suffering more in months than Kashmiris might have "suffered" in years or even decades. Even if we assume that the majority of the population of Kashmir was "suffering", abandoning them would simply mean making them even more miserable. Pakistan's economy cannot support Pakistan let alone help setup an entirely new country. Do you really think the Kashmir "issue" is worth all the trouble that you have gotten into today ?

I would suggest Pakistan mind it's own business, try to get it back on track and perhaps someday have the economic and diplomatic power to actually play the Kashmir game.
 
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Well you do know that what's the biggest bone of contention between India and Pakistan, right ? It's the Kashmir issue. Stop chanting that Kashmir is the Atoot Ang of India,solve it so we all can move on. The average Pakistanis would stop falling for the cunning schemes of the Generals and would eventually try India as a friend. Be the big man and help us try you as a friend.

That is definitely not possible with so much blood being spilt. Till today most of the Indians I have come across acknowledge the fact that P.O.K is lost forever and want to move on making the LOC as IB. OTOH none of the Pakistanis I met are open to that idea and still cling on to either the plebiscite or accession of Kashmir to Pakistan which has less chances of happening than George Bush becoming the President of North Korea.

Then you have the religious nutjobs chanting ghazwa-hind or jihad against infidels who will not stop at kashmir.

Remember that the status-quo currently prevailing heavily favours India and if as you see we get no real benefit in trying to 'solve' this issue. It is Pakistan that is more benefitted from solving this issue as it would release it from the clutches of the Generals and their penchant to spend on arms and BMWs.

So on the contrary it is Pakistan that has to take concrete steps to convince the Indian Gov and more importantly the Indian population that they are serious in solving the issue and not the other way around.
 
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Actually, the OP has posted a realistic article and looks like more and more people in Pakistan are now beginning to shake off this 'security state' mindset, especially after the OBL raid. Things are being said in public space which were a taboo barely a few weeks ago.

Here is one more. By Kunwar Idris. He is a veteran at Dawn. Also, around that time, another one was by Riffat Hussain at Dawn (I can't find the latter one). Kunwar Idris goes farther than anyone else and is reluctantly suggesting a 'union' with India in some way.

Relations with India | Opinion | DAWN.COM

AT a time when India is gathering laurels for its fast-growing economy and vibrant democracy and Pakistan is getting attention for its suicide bombers and nuclear weapons, thoughts go back to the fateful events of 65 years ago, which led to the emergence of the two countries as separate nation-states.

It all happened in the weeks and months after the Muslim League and Congress gave up their stubborn stands to agree to a constitutional arrangement which could be easily described as a confederation, though it was not so termed. The central government was to administer only three subjects — foreign affairs, defence and communications. The rest were left to the three zonal governments.

The visiting Cabinet Mission, led by Sir Stafford Cripps, had proposed to place the provinces in three groups: Group A was to comprise Bengal and Assam; group B Punjab, Sindh, Balochistan and the North West Frontier; and group C the rest of the provinces.

The mission had proposed that at the end of 10 years the legislative assembly of each group by a majority vote could opt out of the confederation and form its own sovereign government. About Assam a special provision was made that if the assembly of group A (in which Assam was placed) voted to quit the confederation, the legislators belonging to Assam, by a majority vote, would have the option to join the provinces in group C.

Having agreed to the plan and after the mission had departed, Pandit Nehru (he had succeeded Abul Kalam Azad as Congress president soon after the agreement) announced that “the Congress was completely unfettered by agreements and free to meet all situations as they arise”. He went on to assert that “he, as president of Congress, had every intention of modifying it” (the Cabinet Mission’s agreed plan). He was particularly insistent on Assam’s right to quit group A and join group C straightaway without waiting for 10 years as the plan had envisaged.

Maulana Abul Kalam Azad described Nehru’s statement as “a costly mistake” and the Quaid-i-Azam “treachery”. Reacting to Nehru’s interpretations, the Quaid also withdrew acceptance of the plan. When even Prime Minister Attlee’s personal last-minute intervention failed to save the plan, the way was paved for the partition of India and the subsequent division of Punjab and Bengal.

The purpose of recalling the events of 1946 summer is to highlight the fact that, Pandit Nehru’s mistake or treachery apart, if the leadership of the Muslim League had considered it possible, just a year before Partition, to coexist with India in a confederation, why can’t we now, as an independent state, coexist with India in a looser union without compromising our sovereignty — as in the case of the countries joining the EU and Asean?

As a sovereign state, Pakistan would not be handicapped, as the Muslim League was in 1946. It could withdraw from the union or confederation (whatever way it may be described) if it hurt Pakistan’s national interests or tended to impair its sovereignty.

If the two countries were unable to get along they could part company and would be no worse off. Pakistan, very likely, would be much better off if the ‘union’ (call it just a treaty, if you will) were to work and endure.

It would be no exaggeration to say that the chief, if not the only, cause of our political instability, economic backwardness, recurring wars and endemic violence has been confrontation with India. Kashmir would no longer be a hurdle to normality as the Kashmiris now ask for azadi and not accession to Pakistan. They haven’t exactly defined azadi but, seemingly, it falls short of full independence and seeks an end to oppression.

Pakistan’s raison d’être for maintaining a half-a-million-strong army and nuclear arsenal is lost if we don’t have to wage a war to liberate Kashmir. If the expenditure on defence was to be cut by half, perhaps, we wouldn’t be borrowing (except for development) or begging for aid from the US and balance-of-payment support from the IMF and could still spend twice as much on education, health and social services than we do presently.

On a different plane, India would not be fomenting unrest in Pakistan’s vulnerable borderlands which, we suspect, it habitually does. Thus, both politically and economically Pakistan has little to lose but much to gain by making friends with India. The only losers on both sides would be the religious extremists and the ideologues who exploit them.

Indonesia, with a Muslim population larger than Pakistan’s, is an example to quote. Its economy has boomed ever since it has reshaped its policies toward liberalism and regional cooperation. Turkey is another example to follow. It is Islamic but desperate to join the European Union (which is dominated by the Christians) only to improve the economic lot of its people.

Pakistan’s alliances even with the Islamic countries have remained moribund except for occasional Saudi doles.

Half a million Indians working in California’s Silicon Valley have helped India’s software companies grow and break into the US and world markets. The Indians on Wall Street have helped put their home country’s venture capital industry on a sound footing. By contrast, Pakistani industrialists and researchers, alike, have to prove they are not terrorists before they can enter America. Access to technology remains a distant cry.

A pact of peace and friendship with India will give us access to Bangalore’s technology. Currently, it is restricted to Bollywood films.

kunwaridris@hotmail.com
 
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Our country's dignity is worth more to us than Pakistan's friendship. Jammu & Kashmir is an integral part of India, and we have no interest in the other side of Kashmir. Your own people in cities like Karachi are suffering more in months than Kashmiris might have "suffered" in years or even decades. Even if we assume that the majority of the population of Kashmir was "suffering", abandoning them would simply mean making them even more miserable. Pakistan's economy cannot support Pakistan let alone help setup an entirely new country. Do you really think the Kashmir "issue" is worth all the trouble that you have gotten into today ?

I would suggest Pakistan mind it's own business, try to get it back on track and perhaps someday have the economic and diplomatic power to actually play the Kashmir game.

Lol, thank you for the kind response. I just wanted to illicit this very response to prove how trustworthy of a friend India would be. Good day.
 
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That is definitely not possible with so much blood being spilt. Till today most of the Indians I have come across acknowledge the fact that P.O.K is lost forever and want to move on making the LOC as IB. OTOH none of the Pakistanis I met are open to that idea and still cling on to either the plebiscite or accession of Kashmir to Pakistan which has less chances of happening than George Bush becoming the President of North Korea.

Then you have the religious nutjobs chanting ghazwa-hind or jihad against infidels who will not stop at kashmir.

Remember that the status-quo currently prevailing heavily favours India and if as you see we get no real benefit in trying to 'solve' this issue. It is Pakistan that is more benefitted from solving this issue as it would release it from the clutches of the Generals and their penchant to spend on arms and BMWs.

So on the contrary it is Pakistan that has to take concrete steps to convince the Indian Gov and more importantly the Indian population that they are serious in solving the issue and not the other way around.

And this is why we can't be friends. The whole terrorism that the GoI cries about stems from the issue of Kashmir. I do not see how you can say that you have no real benefits of resolving the Kashmir issue. Is there any other place in India where supposed Pakistan based militant groups are operating from? No, its just Kashmir, solve the issue and you won't have the terrorism/backlash/radicalism that you are so terrified of.
 
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Actually, the OP has posted a realistic article and looks like more and more people in Pakistan are now beginning to shake off this 'security state' mindset, especially after the OBL raid. Things are being said in public space which were a taboo barely a few weeks ago.

Here is one more. By Kunwar Idris. He is a veteran at Dawn. Also, around that time, another one was by Riffat Hussain at Dawn (I can't find the latter one). Kunwar Idris goes farther than anyone else and is reluctantly suggesting a 'union' with India in some way.

Relations with India | Opinion | DAWN.COM

Where is agnostic. He always says India is not the reason for any of Pakistan's problems!
 
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Well you do know that what's the biggest bone of contention between India and Pakistan, right ? It's the Kashmir issue. Stop chanting that Kashmir is the Atoot Ang of India,solve it so we all can move on. The average Pakistanis would stop falling for the cunning schemes of the Generals and would eventually try India as a friend. Be the big man and help us try you as a friend.

It has already been discussed that further division of India is not possible. The constitution does not allow it. To change the constitution you would require 2/3rds majority. That kind of a majority is not possible on an issue like Kashmir.

OTOH, Pakistan does not have the werewithal to take Kashmir - militarily, diplomatically, economically. Pakistan has tried, Pakistan has failed.

The best solution is to have open borders for Kashmir. And that is also the ONLY solution.
 
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The problem with sole nuclear security.. is well, its a samson option. Its a pandora's box of decision that will have to be taken in case thing spiral out of control.
What is going to be the threshold of nuclear war?
if the first strike is to be carried out .. how much and where?
Whats the end then??.. MAD?

Considering the focus being projected on the safety of our nukes by Western sources.. Its becoming less of an if and more of a when they ask us to relinquish them.
And once those nukes go, there is nothing stopping the Hawks in India to look for an excuse in letting their massive war machine loose.
 
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stop post this kind of crap, indian cyber army.
 
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