for PAF What a Mirage offeres that F-16/ JF 16 don't/ Can't/ Won't

[Dil Pakistan]

Also depends if the radar can work despite the cloud cover ……

…. I am really sorry.... I know the discussion is serious but I could not resist

 

[mqur1963]

where the money will come for j10d a new platform

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

What is the utility of these Mirages if they don’t conduct strikes deep inside Afganistan day in and day out?!?!

 

[Pakistani captain]

I have meet with a Air Force worker. Who was doing a job as a engineer and his job was to maintain mirage fleet. He told me that the main reason for Pakistan airforce like this plane is it's speed. And capability that allows this plane to attack a place and then come back in seconds

And why this plane is still in service is the that Pakistan airforce is unable to find a suitable and cost effective replacement.
He said that rafale was best replacement but much costly. So paf not be able to buy in numbers. Plus india also buying this plane now

 

[nomi007]

Mirage is good platform in term of learning
I am still convinced that only mirage 2000-09 can replace mirage-III/V.
Qatari Mirages soon be replaced by Rafales. so good option is available.

 

[SQ8]

I invite you to commentary on 2 different platforms

different from their physical layout, capability (payolad, engine, performance, avionics) and mission

the Discussion is centered around Mirage , it will serve for few more years but knowing its a 60/70s era plane it will have to be retired despite its excellent service to date

when PAF got Mirages originally what was their role?
did it change to dedicated strike role later?
what made it so special?
what other Airforces got them for multi role or strike role only?
why Mirage is fit for a strike role better than JF-17 or F-16?

what will be a true representative of Mirage then? a modified JF-17 with some compromises and some additions?
would future blocks of JF-17 ever be able to match its its capability that comes with speed?

or like for like replacement of Delta wing jet like Grippen or J-10? Mirage 2000 (their production stopped their spares maybe an issue).

A WELL known(inside out), highly customizable, decent ranged stable strike platform.

 

[ARMalik]

I have meet with a Air Force worker. Who was doing a job as a engineer and his job was to maintain mirage fleet. He told me that the main reason for Pakistan airforce like this plane is it's speed. And capability that allows this plane to attack a place and then come back in seconds

And why this plane is still in service is the that Pakistan airforce is unable to find a suitable and cost effective replacement.
He said that rafale was best replacement but much costly. So paf not be able to buy in numbers. Plus india also buying this plane now

I have mentioned this exact same point a few times on this forum. The speed and acceleration that the Mirages offer at such a competitive cost just cannot be found anywhere else. PAF's has a fleet of above 100+ Mirages, many of them ROSE upgrades. This is a real strike weapon and available in big numbers.

 

[Yasser76]

Most Mirages have ROSE upgrade. The strike ones (Mirage 5 under ROSE I and II) makes this a decent strike platform. FLIR and laser ranger finder and SAGEM Nav/Attack avionics means these can flow low and at night in bad weather. Atlis pods are old and not all weather capable and take up valuable space so unsure if we use LGBs on them. Makes more sense to user these for precision strike with H2/H4 missiles and anti runway munitions. Probably why F-16 took on most of the attack work in FATA. Also worth remembering that PAF still has so many trained officers on Mirages, same with F-16. In war means that we can use these almost constantly as there will be fresh crew, same goes with ground crew. It will take at least a decade of two where JF-17 or even F-16 can get to this level.

 

[Windjammer]

PAF's first acquisition of Mirages involved IIIEP Strike/Interceptors, IIIDP Dual seat trainers and IIIRP for high speed reconnaissance. Albeit the latter were combat capable but essentially they were kept for their dedicated roles, later several versions of Mirage-V were bought which were mix of fighter/bombers and Agave radar equipped optimised for use with the Exocet AM-39 anti-shipping missiles.
These Mirages served PAF well for over 50 years now even fighting Pakistan's wars with satisfactory results.
But as in old days, you needed a separate Telephone, PC, Calculator, Music centre and Torch where as today all this can be found in a single decent Mobile Phone, the aircraft have also evolved so just a single platform can perform the above mentioned multi tasks. Take the JF-17 for example, the PAF didn't have a need for a dual seat, within a decade it has evolved into a Multi role capable machine. From WVR to BVR, ASh capability and now equipped to deliver SOW systems. Albeit, Mirages have their own advantages, like able to carry and deliver Pakistan's own ALCM or as recently demonstrated their capability to strike targets across the LOC. Any wonder then why PAF is acquiring more of these platforms from Egypt. As for future, the PAF needs a twin engine platform for operations over the sea.....something the likes of J-10 lacks.

 

[Pakistani captain]

I have mentioned this exact same point a few times on this forum. The speed and acceleration that the Mirages offer at such a competitive cost just cannot be found anywhere else. PAF's has a fleet of above 100+ Mirages, many of them ROSE upgrades. This is a real strike weapon and available in big numbers.

He also said that Pakistan have actually capture 2 pilots on 27 dated incident. One of then belong to Israel. Because their aircraft was upgraded with israeli software and bonbs. But this thing didn't show public because of Pakistan interest. (maybe people will ask to attack on Israel to same like we did to india)

 

[Windjammer]

True, that is testament to F-16 design's flexibility. But am not right to think F-16s seed was laid in late 1960s?

In the late 1960s, Boyd gathered a group of like-minded innovators who became known as the Fighter Mafia, and in 1969, they secured Department of Defense funding for General Dynamics and Northrop to study design concepts based on the theory.[16][17]

With the first F-16 flight taking place in 1974 and was in service with USAF in 1978 with PAF recieving F-16s by 1983?


Role Multirole Fighter, Air Superiority Fighter
National origin United States
Manufacturer General Dynamics
Lockheed Martin
First flight 20 January 1974 (unplanned)
2 February 1974 (official)

Introduction 17 August 1978
Status In service

First F-16 or YF-16 from 1975.

My dear, going by this logic, do you know that the Dassault Rafale first flew in 1986.

In the late 1970s, the French Air Force and Navy were seeking to replace and consolidate their current fleets of aircraft. In order to reduce development costs and boost prospective sales, France entered into an arrangement with UK, Germany, Italy and Spain to produce an agile multi-purpose fighter, the Eurofighter Typhoon. Subsequent disagreements over workshare and differing requirements led to France's pursuit of its own development programme. Dassault built a technology demonstrator which first flew in July 1986 as part of an eight-year flight-test programme, paving the way for the go-ahead of the project. The Rafale is distinct from other European fighters of its era in that it is almost entirely built by one country, involving most of France's major defence contractors, such as Dassault, Thales and Safran.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

My dear, going by this logic, do you know that the Dassault Rafale first flew in 1986.

In the late 1970s, the French Air Force and Navy were seeking to replace and consolidate their current fleets of aircraft. In order to reduce development costs and boost prospective sales, France entered into an arrangement with UK, Germany, Italy and Spain to produce an agile multi-purpose fighter, the Eurofighter Typhoon. Subsequent disagreements over workshare and differing requirements led to France's pursuit of its own development programme. Dassault built a technology demonstrator which first flew in July 1986 as part of an eight-year flight-test programme, paving the way for the go-ahead of the project. The Rafale is distinct from other European fighters of its era in that it is almost entirely built by one country, involving most of France's major defence contractors, such as Dassault, Thales and Safran.

Because of complexity of modern technology there tends to be long period of gestation. So some of the dates are open to debate. However I think we can all agree with the actual date when fighters go into service. By that measure the Dassault Mirage is a 1960s fighter and F-16 a 1970s fighter as those are the decades they entered service with French Air Force and USAF respectively. To put it bluntly F-16 is fifteen years younger then the Mirage.

 

[Windjammer]

Because of complexity of modern technology there tends to be long period of gestation. So some of the dates are open to debate. However I think we can all agree with the actual date when fighters go into service. By that measure the Dassault Mirage is a 1960s fighter and F-16 a 1970s fighter as those are the decades they entered service with French Air Force and USAF respectively. To put it bluntly F-16 is fifteen years younger then the Mirage.

And that makes F-15 Eagle only 13 years younger than the Mirage as it was inducted two years before the F-16.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

And that makes F-15 Eagle only 13 years younger than the Mirage as it was inducted two years before the F-16.

True. Fact is Mirages, Eagles, Falcons are now old and dated, rather similar to me in age !

True. Fact is Mirages, Eagles, Falcons are now old and dated, rather similar to me in age !

But still pack a punch ~ old is gold

And I suspect F-15s and F-16s can still horse whip the new boys like Jf-17s .....

 

[Signalian]

when PAF got Mirages originally what was their role?
PAF got into a habit of inducting Multirole aircrafts through F-86 Sabres. F-86 successfully shot down aircrafts and also conducted strike missions. F-104, a rocket with wings, was considered more of a air superiority aircraft and didn't suit any role eventually.
Mirage III was inducted in PAF as Multirole aircraft. The same pattern continued with F-16 in 1980's and now with JF-17. It also had a recce variant, atleast 3 recon versions were inducted. Before the Mirage III recce version, T-33 was tasked for recon missions. Those who say that Mirage-III has the speed should know that primarily T-33 lacked speed to fly in IAF's dense AD network therefore Mirage III recon version was deemed necessary for this task. Interestingly, PAF made F-86 night intercept capable and this was also considered a requirement for Mirage-III from the onset. PAF's pattern has been same in many areas of aircraft induction. Just like single seat induction of JF-17, PAF went for single seat Mirage III and inducted a squadron 40+ years ago. Afterwards 3 two-seat trainer versions were ordered. The single seat version was made all weather and night missions capable for strike missions. In 1971 war, Mirage III conducted air defense and took part in strike missions as well as Recon missions. They were equipped with Aim-9 and few French R-350. Aim-9 was considered in high esteem by PAF, so Mirage III compatibility to Aim-9 was of utmost priority.


did it change to dedicated strike role later?
Mirage-III was envisioned as a fighter and used as such both by Israelis and then PAF. Mirage-III evolved into Mirage-V which was considered a strike oriented aircraft. Mirage-V has an extended nose, said to have two extra pylons. For ease of understanding, basically F-16 Block 15 evolving into Block-40 and above with strike role in mind. Therefore Mirage-V was tested and inducted with a variety of air to surface weaponry (bombs, missiles, nuclear weapons), including naval support weaponry.
If you look at Project ROSE, Mirage-III as upgraded as an air defense fighter and Mirage-V was upgraded as a strike fighter with excellent night strike capability.


what made it so special?
For PAF, Mirage-III was a step up than F-86. The Sabre had bore the brunt of 1965 war in all roles. B-57's were bombers and F-104 had little to offer. Just like today, the way JF-17 compliments F-16, the same way Mirage-III complimented F-86 Sabre. While the USA put sanctions in 1965 war, there was a requirement for another non-US aircraft. In 1960's and 1970's, it was the Mirage-III and today its JF-17.

Secondly, Mirage-III could be upgraded and carry a variety of weaponry, US and Non-US ordnance. This made the aircraft very versatile and flexible for upgrades. Ra'ad ALCM is just one example after 2000's.

Thirdly,ROSE upgrade is a very budget efficient upgrade that 68 x Mirages have gone through, even being a French aircraft. Upgrading same number of F-16's did cost billions of USD.

Fourthly, one of the few aircraft of its era to conduct terrain hugging flights.


what other Airforces got them for multi role or strike role only?
Israelis got Mirage-III for Air defense role, but then invested in Strike version Kfir . Mirage III strike payload was moderate, but due to its multirole capability, it was used as bomber by Israelis. In later wars, Mirage III was primarily used in air defense role. Argentinians had difficult time using Mirage-III in strike role and shifted them to air defense role. South Africans resorted to use Mirage-III for air defense roles also which later evolved into Cheetah version.

Mirage-V was a different story. It's kfir variant was extensively used by Israelis for strike missions, even before and after induction of F-16's. Another variant Nesher was also flown by israelis in air defense missions and performed extremely well.

why Mirage is fit for a strike role better than JF-17 or F-16?
F-16 is better suited for strike role. The embargo saga of F-16's made Mirage the primary strike fighter for PAF. Had PAF acquired 111 F-16 A/B's and follow up orders of C/D versions, the story of Mirage III and Mirage V would have ended at some point in PAF and not dragged on till today. 40 decent F-16's and above 100 Mirages with few upgraded ones was all that PAF had in 1990's.
Mirages were also the first aircraft to get BVR capability in PAF. Having said that, Mirage-III and V both could carry as assortment of weaponry as stated earlier, which gave PAF flexibility to conduct strike missions. The upgrades for F-16 Block 15's had a bigger cost, still PAF made them capable to fire AGM-65, carry ALTIS II targeting pods and possibility to fire AGM-84 Harpoon apart from legacy Mark-82/84 bombs.


what will be a true representative of Mirage then? a modified JF-17 with some compromises and some additions?
A follow up true representative of Mirage-III would be Mirage-2000 and then probably Rafale.
JF-17 has limitations in design which can be overcome with structural changes, if PAF is interested.

would future blocks of JF-17 ever be able to match its its capability that comes with speed?
Speed is just one side of the game. Electronics (data link+controlling UAV, EW, radar, sensors), ability to carry all types of weapons (including AAM's, ALCM's,Missiles, Bombs) along with stealthy features (design + internal payload too) as well as reduced RCS is the future.


or like for like replacement of Delta wing jet like Grippen or J-10? Mirage 2000 (their production stopped their spares maybe an issue)
PAF interest has been in many planes, just like window shopping. Gripen was evaluated and deemed a certain possibility. J-10 was almost ordered. Similar story with Mirage-2000 in 1990's continuing up til now. Its not about replacing a delta with delta, PAF has to induct an aircraft which suits its requirements. So far PAF is only interested in inducting JF-17's (newer blocks) and F-16's (any block). In aviation industry, the future is stealth, not delta really. This is why project Azm has become a part of PAF.