for PAF What a Mirage offeres that F-16/ JF 16 don't/ Can't/ Won't

[Lincoln]

It its a good, safe and fast bombers. Age is not a great factor until the upgrade you can do to the jet becomes limited.

PAF mirages have gone overhaul and upgradation. But its time is coming to a halt by 2025, I think. PAF is replacing it with JF-17 Thunder.

 

[BHarwana]

I invite you to commentary on 2 different platforms

different from their physical layout, capability (payolad, engine, performance, avionics) and mission

the Discussion is centered around Mirage , it will serve for few more years but knowing its a 60/70s era plane it will have to be retired despite its excellent service to date

when PAF got Mirages originally what was their role?
did it change to dedicated strike role later?
what made it so special?
what other Airforces got them for multi role or strike role only?
why Mirage is fit for a strike role better than JF-17 or F-16?

what will be a true representative of Mirage then? a modified JF-17 with some compromises and some additions?
would future blocks of JF-17 ever be able to match its its capability that comes with speed?

or like for like replacement of Delta wing jet like Grippen or J-10? Mirage 2000 (their production stopped their spares maybe an issue).

Currently Mirages are performing the duty of B-57 for PAF.

 

[MastanKhan]

I invite you to commentary on 2 different platforms

different from their physical layout, capability (payolad, engine, performance, avionics) and mission

the Discussion is centered around Mirage , it will serve for few more years but knowing its a 60/70s era plane it will have to be retired despite its excellent service to date

when PAF got Mirages originally what was their role?
did it change to dedicated strike role later?
what made it so special?
what other Airforces got them for multi role or strike role only?
why Mirage is fit for a strike role better than JF-17 or F-16?

what will be a true representative of Mirage then? a modified JF-17 with some compromises and some additions?
would future blocks of JF-17 ever be able to match its its capability that comes with speed?

or like for like replacement of Delta wing jet like Grippen or J-10? Mirage 2000 (their production stopped their spares maybe an issue).

Hi,

The life and usage of a strike aircraft is endless---. So---basically---as long you can keep it in wartime flyable condition---have the ability to upgrade its electronics---weapons delivery and weapons---the aircraft is never going to get old till they start falling down from the skies in large numbers---and then public starts to call them 'flying coffins'---.

 

[VCheng]

when PAF got Mirages originally what was their role?
did it change to dedicated strike role later?
what made it so special?
what other Airforces got them for multi role or strike role only?
why Mirage is fit for a strike role better than JF-17 or F-16?

It is simple really. PAF shoulders its responsibilities with the aircraft it can get, not the aircraft it wishes it could get.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Hi,

The life and usage of a strike aircraft is endless---. So---basically---as long you can keep it in wartime flyable condition---have the ability to upgrade its electronics---weapons delivery and weapons---the aircraft is never going to get old till they start falling down from the skies in large numbers---and then public starts to call them 'flying coffins'---.

our Mirages have fallen down from the skies on regular intervals
whether it was pilot failure or structural integrity issue or the long gone engine life I dont know.

despite that if they are the Wolks Wagon of PAF then I agree their lime time is endless

It is simple really. PAF shoulders its responsibilities with the aircraft it can get, not the aircraft it wishes it could get.

understood but despite that many exceptional acquisitions Sabers, Star fighters , Mirages and F-16s

Currently Mirages are performing the duty of B-57 for PAF.

so true. the ROSE upgrade has made them so adaptable that they are able to deploy cruise missiles and new smart bombs that PAF releases from time to time.

 

[bananarepublic]

My opinion is that the role of modern fighter bombers will be taken over by drones or at least most of it.
Paf wants something that will be effective in its role but at lower cost than its more better performing inventory just as milspec pointed out that due to their low maintenance and cost of procurement they became strike elements.
For me drones as bombers will do two things
1.Allow PAF to field dedicated strike elements at lower procurement and maintenance cost.
2.it will allow PAF to procure more planes for other roles thereby increasing the fleet size at much lower cost.

 

[VCheng]

understood but despite that many exceptional acquisitions Sabers, Star fighters , Mirages and F-16s

... and also the JF-17.

PAF has managed to keep its fleet in line with its resources very well over the years, with an aim to meeting its primary defensive posture, very successfully. If only if the country had been able to create, in the lost decades of the past, the metallurgical bases to create modern aircraft alloys, it would be in a very different situation by now. It showed how to integrate all types of electronics, software and weapons system on the JF-17. What is left after that: airframe and engine. Metallurgy.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

My opinion is that the role of modern fighter bombers will be taken over by drones or at least most of it.
Paf wants something that will be effective in its role but at lower cost than its more better performing inventory just as milspec pointed out that due to their low maintenance and cost of procurement they became strike elements.
For me drones as bombers will do two things
1.Allow PAF to field dedicated strike elements at lower procurement and maintenance cost.
2.it will allow PAF to procure more planes for other roles thereby increasing the fleet size at much lower cost.

this is a discussion of an other level and a logical move to next level
thanks for pointing that out
to reach that level to replace manned planes we need to take many technological leaps and achieve landmarks.
stealth jet Drones of a heavier class with super sonic speed

 

[bananarepublic]

this is a discussion of an other level and a logical move to next level
thanks for pointing that out
to reach that level to replace manned planes we need to take many technological leaps and achieve landmarks.
stealth jet Drones of a heavier class with super sonic speed

There are somethings which are inevitable and more or less PAF leadership knows what the future will be.
If we have the will to build 5th gen fighter planes then we can also build drones too.
I am just pointing out the trend I have been seeing in the past years regarding what many air force around the world are doing.
When PAF invests in something they do it with the intention of using it for 40+ years . I just don't want an investment that will last them less than that

 

[BHarwana]

so true. the ROSE upgrade has made them so adaptable that they are able to deploy cruise missiles and new smart bombs that PAF releases from time to time.

PAC is still operating the Mirage rebuild factory. It has a name for it's self now with in PAC it is called MRF and there is also an MRF engine group.

These links below will tell you their importance and role in PAF further.

https://pac.org.pk/mrf-mro
https://pac.org.pk/mrf

Mirages are here to stay for a long time and I am also sensing an upgrade by PAF for Mirages.

 

[CriticalThought]

so the Delta design and profile enabled performance at high altitude as well as low flying strike the design and engine together boosted the entire strike cycle
then you point out at its ROSE upgrade of its avionics and computer system through domestic and foreign suppliers.

moving to second part of my questions.the ultimately the time of unavoidable replacement and with what? if JF-17 why or why not? how much the delta design and its 2.2 Mac speed is a decider? which JF-17 cant address due to design difference and engine limitations

For me, a good replacement of Mirages is Su-35. It can provide top cover, highly maneuverable, can act as bomb truck if needed, and brings many additional benefits.

 

[MastanKhan]

this is a discussion of an other level and a logical move to next level
thanks for pointing that out
to reach that level to replace manned planes we need to take many technological leaps and achieve landmarks.
stealth jet Drones of a heavier class with super sonic speed

Hi,

The real problem that the Paf faces is a NOW problem---. So---until and unless it can fill up that hole for the NOW problem---it would be going around in endless circles---.

The NOW problem is a lack of frontline aircraft in operation now---.

We are woefully equipped to fight the enemy with our current inventory---.

Once that threshold level is met---then the Paf can take a free hand to look for desired aircraft---.

 

[Shane]

Excellent analyses except for the following two quotes.

why Mirage is fit for a strike role better than JF-17 or F-16?
It's not. Both JF 17 and F16 have superior flight performance, better avionics, better targetting and are newer platforms.

Despite the technological advancements of JF-17 and F-16 highlighted above, there are still other factors to consider.

Yes, an F-16 and even JF-17 can easily make its way, even fight it's way, to the target/standoff range, deploy it's payload and exfil but no aircraft in PAF inventory can match the Mirage Delta in its egress capabilities to dive back and out run anything in the eminent response our enemy has to offer.

what will be a true representative of Mirage then? a modified JF-17 with some compromises and some additions?
would future blocks of JF-17 ever be able to match its capability that comes with speed?
It does not provide anything special with it's higher speed, Higher speeds are for a short burst of time. It's speed does not provide a greater advantage than a JF17.

It does provide something special and not just higher speed at altitudes but also it's ability to fly lower than any other PAF strike platform in its approach with the specific payload.

Beyond the delta design capabilities, what it lacks in high tech sophistication, is probably a contributing factor to its ability to allow, rather than restrict as in the case of modern fly by wire, a masterful pilot to skim the surface of the sea and comeup, for example, to the surprise of USS Abraham Lincoln.

INS-Vikramaditya too is welcome to try.

@MUSTAKSHAF 's thread and proposal is at least worthy of a "tinker" with a dedicated JF17 unit to match Mirage capabilities. I know it is way beyond adding "conformal" gondola tanks to F-6s but so is the technological know-how after years of Mirage rebuilt and JF-17 manufacturing for an Air Force aiming for project Azm.

 

[mqur1963]

f16 1978 almost 1980

 

[Humble Analyst]

Mirage advantages over F16- sanction proof so can deliver bombs, missiles.
Over JF 17 has increased clearance from ground so has better ability to carry bombs missiles under fuselage and wings compared to JF 17.
Mirage can fly better hugging the terrain