For Indian war planners, is the PAF their worst fear?

[IceCold]

Which missile of 2500km range has Pakistan tested? .

The Shaheen missile series (named after a white eagle that lives in the mountains of Pakistan) was developed by National Defence Complex (NDC), a subsidiary of the NESCOM which was formed in 1993, under the guidance of Dr. Samar Mubarakmand.
Background

Shaheen-I missile is a short-range ballistic missile (SRBM) with an optimal range of 750 km. The Shaheen missile is very accurate by the standards of ballistic missiles[2], and has a CEP of 25 meters[3]. The Shaheen-I has a single stage solid fuel rocket motor. Shaheen-II a longer range variant of Shaheen-I, uses a two-stage motor, giving it a range of 2,500 km.[4]

The Shaheen missile system can deliver either a conventional or a non-conventional payload. The solid propellant engine, makes Shaheen missiles faster to deploy than systems such as the Ghauri. It is also thought that Pakistan is in the process of developing the capability to fire these missiles from submarines, a feature that would greatly enhance the deterrent capability of the Pakistani Navy.[citation needed]

[edit] Advance Re-entry vehicle:Ballistic Missile Defence and CEP

Re-entry vehicle carried by the Shaheen-I missile have a mass of 850kg. This re-entry vehicle mass of 850kg carry Nuclear Warhead weight of the re-entry vehicles itself and a terminal guidance[5] (as confirmed by Dr. Samar Mubarakmand[6])which is most probably radar correlation terminal seeker to achieve extremely accurate CEP in range of 25m[7] similar to US PERSHING II[8].This re-entry vehicle also have four moving delta control fins at the rear (in case of Shaheen-I only) and small solid-propellantside thrust motors motors, which can be used to orientate the re-entry vehicle after boost burn out or before reentry to improve the accuracy by providing stabilization during the terminal phase[9] and this can also be used to fly evasive maneuvers, making it immensely problematic to intercept by any existing anti-ballistic missile defence systems. Shaheen-I changes its trajectory several times during re-entry and even during the terminal phase, effectively preventing pre-calculated intercept points of radar systems - which is a method nearly all ABM systems use these days. This re-entry vehicle also has GPS updates to further improve its CEP.

Shaheen-I was first flight tested on April 15, 1999. It was handed over to Pakistan Army in 2003. The missile has a range of 750 km, weighs almost 10 tonns and can carry a payload of 1000 kg. Shaheen-I is also designated as Hatf-IV.

Shaheen (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[IceCold]

Which missile of 2500km range has Pakistan tested?

Ghauri 3 with a planned range of 3500kms is also in the process of making and this is i am talking about back in 1994, it might be operational for all we know. As long as current regime is in place we wont see further tests of BM for obvious reasons but here is the link to the article:

MissileThreat :: Ghauri-3

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

Which missile of 2500km range has Pakistan tested?
And second, please read up on any independent source on the number of missiles possesed by Pakistan.

you have no knowledge of that, please do not make claims from like this. it's okay to let your imagination and bollywood movies take over once in a while, but it's important you don't loose control.
Tell me the CEP of Hatf-5, i believe the longest ranged Pakistani missile.

again, sources are there, Shaheen II's range is 2500km, we've tested 2000 km due to our territorial boundaries. videos have been released showing Shaheen II's warhead hitting a flag on the spot. it's funny how you doubt my claims, seeing how mods and other board members find my words to be as good as gold. independent source, what a joke, as if an trolling indian can tell me that! you can't even accept the fact that we are operating Ghauri II or Shaheen II, which is why you are saying hatf 5, which is the basic Ghauri missile. Perhaps you still are living in the illusion that Pakistan's missiles are korean, and are unsuccessful, even though we've tested Shaheen II for years, and your own scientists admit our program is superior. so much for independent source, you're just the biased troll I was expecting to say sh!t like this.

The fact that you have not even bothered to get into the technical aspect to prove your point makes something evident-you dont know jack$hit about IAF AFB's, their range, the bases of Su-30 or heck-the SAM's in use by PAF!
technical! all you were able to tell me was the "damned good range of the Su-30". let's get one thing straight here, you have no idea what you're talking about. it's beyond me how you've been able to participate in a defense forum all these years. tell me, how can your Sukhoi's range come in handy when they can't even achieve control of our airspace? how are they going to avoid SAM's and BVR missiles?


Now, secondly, for a 'wave' of BM's on bases in Central India, give me a rough estimate on the number of missiles of the Hatf 5 variant!! Calculate the distance to Pune and then lets talk!
I'm not the one making a claim here that Pakistan is short on ballistic missiles, you are. Please provide proof of your claim like I asked. show me that Pakistan only has a few ballistic missiles.

Lol. Refute my statements with technical proof, not with bull$hit and semantics!
The difference between you and some of the other senior members debating here is more than evident.
Have you stopped to wonder why CM's are being so actively pursued by Pakistan? Or why the world over CM's are preferred when it comes to 'these things'.
you haven't brought up any worthy evidence to refute, instead you still live in the 90's when Pakistan only had the Ghauri I at its disposal. as for you claim on cruise missiles, you're words are nothing but an empty rhetoric. Pakistan's pursuing cruise missiles only for second strike capability through submarines. so much for your technical knowledge, in the end, you have no idea what you're talking about! stop trolling and talking bullsh!t, you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Contrarian]

again, sources are there, Shaheen II's range is 2500km, we've tested 2000 km due to our territorial boundaries. videos have been released showing Shaheen II's warhead hitting a flag on the spot. it's funny how you doubt my claims, seeing how mods and other board members find my words to be as good as gold. independent source, what a joke, as if an trolling indian can tell me that! you can't even accept the fact that we are operating Ghauri II or Shaheen II, which is why you are saying hatf 5, which is the basic Ghauri missile. Perhaps you still are living in the illusion that Pakistan's missiles are korean, and are unsuccessful, even though we've tested Shaheen II for years, and your own scientists admit our program is superior. so much for independent source, you're just the biased troll I was expecting to say sh!t like this.

Insofar i dont give a damn whether your word is as good as Gold or as Gods for the mods.

First point, if you want to talk, then stop the personal attacks. It doesnt take much to pay back in the same coin.

Have i mentioned that i dotn accept that Shaheen II is not in use by Pakistan? Give me my exact wording saying so. And if your not able to, then stop trying to put words in my mouth.

technical! all you were able to tell me was the "damned good range of the Su-30". let's get one thing straight here, you have no idea what you're talking about. it's beyond me how you've been able to participate in a defense forum all these years. tell me, how can your Sukhoi's range come in handy when they can't even achieve control of our airspace?

The point is that the Su-30's can launch from bases that are further out than the maximum range of Pakistani missiles. They have the endurance to be launched from Central and Southern India. Moreover, IAF also possess FRA. Thus in short, it would mean that the scenario your talking about, like using a massed BM strike on AFB"s in India to knock out the Airforce is not half as useful as you think. This is what is implied by the range of the Su-30. If you were as great the armchair general you assume you are, you'd have figured that out, and especially in light of what i was talking about.

And after that, there are H.A.S on major AFB's.

how are they going to avoid SAM's and BVR missiles?

SAM's and BVR missiles? Is this a joke? We are talking about a BM strike on AFB's that is supposed to render all planes useless.

Secondly, since that scenario is not possible. Allow me to ask you-Which LRSAM and MRSAM does PAF possess and in what quantities?

I'm not the one making a claim here that Pakistan is short on ballistic missiles, you are. Please provide proof of your claim like I asked. show me that Pakistan only has a few ballistic missiles.

Did i mention Pakistan has few ballistic missiles? I said does Pakistan have enough BM's for a barrage strike on all the AFB's in Western, Central, and South Western and Northern India? Because AFB's from all these bases are going to host Su-30's, and even other aircraft, as the FRA allows them to double the endurance.

you haven't brought up any worthy evidence to refute, instead you still live in the 90's when Pakistan only had the Ghauri I at its disposal. as for you claim on cruise missiles, you're words are nothing but an empty rhetoric.

You still havent gotten to the nitty gritty of using BM's to disable AFB"s, you are becomming and talking like a fanboy.

Pakistan's pursuing cruise missiles only for second strike capability through submarines. so much for your technical knowledge, in the end, you have no idea what you're talking about! stop trolling and talking bullsh!t, you have no idea what you're talking about.

If THIS is what you think, then i am shocked that the mods here would take your words as good as gold, because most of the mods here are well versed in such military aspects.

Just ONE point-before talking to me on this issue, please talk to some senior members like Agnostic, or Blain or Keysersoze about WHY Pakistan is going for CM'!

LOL, you actually think CM"s are for second strike through submarines

 

[Patriot]

Malay I don't think Pakistan or India will use Ballistic Missiles for destroying AFB..They will most likely use Cruise Missiles (As Ballistic Missile can be confused with Nuclear Armed Ballistic Missile..) What do you think?

 

[Contrarian]

Now on to the main part, as Qsaark has already mentioned, BM's are no good to use or at best have limited utility to attack AFB's because of reasons more than one.

One of them is that they are simply not good at it. BM's are not accurate enough to attack the runways.

Secondly, even when accurate, they are not designed for that role, the damage they do in most cases is not enough to close the AFB's for long periods.

Thirdly, use of BM is considered escalatory, as the enemy has no means of knowing whether the BM has a conventional warhead or not. You wouldnt want the enemy(India in this case!) to think the BM is nuclear and retliate with nukes now would you!

There are other reasons as well, these are simply off the top of my head.

And Lastly, i think it would be good if you tried to debate with me not thinking of me as your enemy. We'r here to learn something new and that unequivocally includes me. And the fact that you think that Pakistan's pursuing cruise missiles only for second strike capability through submarines tells me you need to learn loads.

So stop your arrogance.

 

[qsaark]

Which missile of 2500km range has Pakistan tested?

None is TESTED. As Icecold and asaad-ul-islam has mentioned, they have theoretical or proposed range of 2,500km. But due to the limited territorial boundaries, Pakistan was not able to test them beyond those boundries. There was also some international politics involved. At any rate you are right when saying that 2,500km range missile is not tested, Icecold and asaad-ul-islam are also right in saying that Shaheen II is capable of reaching 2,500km range but couldn't be tsted due to the limted territorial boundaries or other reasons.

 

[Contrarian]

Malay I don't think Pakistan or India will use Ballistic Missiles for destroying AFB..They will most likely use Cruise Missiles (As Ballistic Missile can be confused with Nuclear Armed Ballistic Missile..) What do you think?

Yes mate, both Pakistan and India will use Cruise Missiles to attack each other's vital command nodes and AFB's. And that is the reason why both the countries are putting that much effort to develop their respective CM"s.

The world over CM's are preferred for such roles, not only because BM's are considered escalatory and are ambiguous in terms of its warhead, but also because CM's are--to put it simply--better.

 

[qsaark]

And Lastly, i think it would be good if you tried to debate with me not thinking of me as your enemy. We'r here to learn something new and that unequivocally includes me.

Yes dude, you are absolutely right here. Trust me, most of the times problems or tensions arise not because we intentionally want to be arrogant but because of the language. If we were typing in Urdu or Hindi, we would be more polite and collegial. It’s just that we can’t really express ourselves as well in English since this is not our mother tongue. I see my sons, who are born here in US and are being raised here. They speak very cloakial english, which, I no matter what cant.

 

[mean_bird]

The point is that the Su-30's can launch from bases that are further out than the maximum range of Pakistani missiles. They have the endurance to be launched from Central and Southern India.

What????

Please tell me which which place in Central or southern India is further than 2500km from Pakistan? just name a single one.

 

[Contrarian]

Yes dude, you are absolutely right here. Trust me, most of the times problems or tensions arise not because we intentionally want to be arrogant but because of the language. If we were typing in Urdu or Hindi, we would be more polite and collegial. It’s just that we can’t really express ourselves as well in English since this is not our mother tongue.

Mate frankly, reading asaad-ul-islam's posts makes it evident he wouldnt have been any more polite in Hindi or Urdu. Maybe a few of the choiciest words he would know in those languages would have come my way!

I think its better in english!

 

[Contrarian]

What????

Please tell me which which place in Central or southern India is further than 2500km from Pakistan? just name a single one.

Lol, didnt mean that literally! Most of Indiia gets covered, barring and that too maybe East, North East, South India.

The essence though was not about being outranged, the further the AFB is from Pakistan, the greater the number of BM's need to be used. Because you got to cover the intermediate bases as well.

 

[mean_bird]

Lol, didnt mean that literally! Most of Indiia gets covered, barring and that too maybe East, North East, South India.

The essence though was not about being outranged, the further the AFB is from Pakistan, the greater the number of BM's need to be used. Because you got to cover the intermediate bases as well.

Well just to set the record straight, no inch of India is out of range of the Shaheen missile. Not even the southern most tip, not even the eastern most tip. There ware many maps, interview of scientists mentioning this or you can calculate for yourself using google earth.

Secondly, I don't see how all this talk is relevant. A war on paper and a war in reality are two completely different things. Otherwise, no wars would be fought. Each side would calculated its number of missiles, range of fighter planes, etc as has been suggested in this thread, and we would have a winner without a single shot being fired. We know, however, that such is not the case in the real world.

Before even beginning to analyze military strength we need to take the war scenario into consideration. Personally, I do not think there will ever be a Indo-Pak all-out, fierce and protracted war again. If there is, you and I would not live to talk about it. By fierce, I mean attacking all 5000 targets or the reciprocal 10000 targets that you keep on hearing from Indian and Pakistani sides. And by protracted, I mean anything longer than when one side starts to really wear out significantly. Such a scenario will not happen as long as both have non-conventional weapons.

Second point is...OK lets consider either a limited war or a fiercer one but very short one. In both cases, you do not "wipe out" enemy bases entirely, you would hardly use ballistic missiles, and your targets would rather be focused. Let's talk about the scenario "as of today" or very near future. How many Su-30's does Indian have at the moment that have entered service? How many of India's inventory can fly from out-of-range Pak cruise missiles? how many long range weapons are in service today? while the brahmos( has it entered service?) has a maximum range of 290km, ra'ad and babur have ranges of 350km and 700km respectively. Plans for a 1000+ km CM have been there for quite sometime and if the surprise element of Pakistan is anything to go by, I will bet my money there are much more things out there than publicly acknowledged.

Fact is if India has to cause any damage well inside pakistan, they will have to enter deep into pakistani airspace. That means countering PAF jets, that means countering SAM's. Save the new or upgraded ones, how many indian jets are currently in a state to carry out long range strike role and that too as frequently as required in a war scenario?

The defender always have the surprise element to his advantage over the intruder. And till now we even haven't begun talking about tactics.

Practically, you don't go into a war so can kill 120 birds while 100 of yours will killing along the way. The only time you go in a war is either when you have no other option or you have a decisive advantage. And frankly speaking, neither side has a decisive advantage at the moment.

 

[qsaark]

Fact is if India has to cause any damage well inside pakistan, they will have to enter deep into pakistani airspace. That means countering PAF jets, that means countering SAM's. Save the new or upgraded ones, how many indian jets are currently in a state to carry out long range strike role and that too as frequently as required in a war scenario?

Most of our weapon complexes, nuclear reactors, re-processing plants, GHQ, almost everything significant is not 'deep' inside Pakistan. All of the mentioned structures are located within 50-75km from the international borders.

To be honest with you, our most assets are well withing the direct 155mm artillery range (40-62km) of the Indians.

Note: My assumption is based on the most latest South African guns and munition, if and when this deal is finalized.

Correct me if I am worng.

Practically, you don't go into a war so can kill 120 birds while 100 of yours will killing along the way.

If that can result in the complete control of the airspace, this is not a bad deal.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

Insofar i dont give a damn whether your word is as good as Gold
yes, you still live in an imaginative world, where you can just conduct "surgical strikes" on Pakistani territory to "punish" us, just like the rest of your ignorant countrymen.

Have i mentioned that i dotn accept that Shaheen II is not in use by Pakistan? Give me my exact wording saying so. And if your not able to, then stop trying to put words in my mouth.
"Tell me the CEP of Hatf-5, i believe the longest ranged Pakistani missile."

The point is that the Su-30's can launch from bases that are further out than the maximum range of Pakistani missiles. They have the endurance to be launched from Central and Southern India. Moreover, IAF also possess FRA. Thus in short, it would mean that the scenario your talking about, like using a massed BM strike on AFB"s in India to knock out the Airforce is not half as useful as you think. This is what is implied by the range of the Su-30. If you were as great the armchair general you assume you are, you'd have figured that out, and especially in light of what i was talking about.
again, you aren't listening. range is irrelevant when you can't enter our territory without risk of being shotdown.

SAM's and BVR missiles? Is this a joke? We are talking about a BM strike on AFB's that is supposed to render all planes useless.
Secondly, since that scenario is not possible. Allow me to ask you-Which LRSAM and MRSAM does PAF possess and in what quantities?
what are you talking about? I can't believe what I'm seeing here, I have no idea why you're allowed to post on this forum. ironically, you are probably the smartest out of the indian posters here. for the umpteenth time, range is irrelevant when you are flying over hostile territory. you have to get past our aircraft, SAM's. we have HQ-2, SPADA 2000 Plus, FT-2000 (HQ-9).

Did i mention Pakistan has few ballistic missiles? I said does Pakistan have enough BM's for a barrage strike on all the AFB's in Western, Central, and South Western and Northern India? Because AFB's from all these bases are going to host Su-30's, and even other aircraft, as the FRA allows them to double the endurance.
yes, that's what our planners have prepared for. exact number for ballistic missile inventory is never available, but the use of ballistic missiles were part of the plan during the Mumbai drama. it's unconventional warfare with a massive wave of SCUD style attacks. we were forced to rely on ballistic missiles and other unconvetional means thanks the arm embargoes.

You still havent gotten to the nitty gritty of using BM's to disable AFB"s, you are becomming and talking like a fanboy.
and I suppose you were being technical? I've already posted a bit more detailed info on our missiles concerning guidance and precision, possible war scenarios, yet the only thing you have thrown at me is "FRA" or IFR and "damned good range".

If THIS is what you think, then i am shocked that the mods here would take your words as good as gold, because most of the mods here are well versed in such military aspects.
Just ONE point-before talking to me on this issue, please talk to some senior members like Agnostic, or Blain or Keysersoze about WHY Pakistan is going for CM'!
LOL, you actually think CM"s are for second strike through submarines
yeah...so? the whole entire point for developing cruise missiles was for second strike capability. a bit unconventional considering the usage of SLBM's, but perfect due to our budget. almost everyone on this forum knows that, what are you talking about? arguing with you is apparently a waste of time, just like it is arguing with any other indian on this forum.