FLASH! Indian 155-mm Self-Propelled Howitzer Big Begins All Over Again

[KS]

@ Kinetic and Spitfighter.

Both of u have valid points.But this is not the forum (ours) to wash our dirty linen in public.

So please cut it out...or there is always the PM.

Cheers

 

[jha]

An Indian journey sans Bofors baggage

In adversity, the saying goes, lies opportunity. Applying that principle, India’s indigenous defence complex is at a crucial moment where a resolute decision could make it a genuine supplier of high-end artillery equipment, instead of a mere spectator to a global shopping spree by the Indian military.

Last Friday, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) signalled (if confirmation were needed) that it lacks the political will to cast aside the procedure in selecting a 155-millimetre artillery gun for the army. With the CBI proceeding against Singapore Technologies Kinetic (STK), one of the two remaining companies in the fray, the MoD restarted the entire process of tendering and trials rather than awarding the contract to the sole vendor remaining, UK-headquartered BAE Systems, which offered the politically contentious Bofors gun.

It is time to end this long-playing farce of trial and rejection and put the MoD and global vendors of artillery systems out of their misery. The Indian Army must be frankly told that it will receive no 155-mm guns for the next five-to-seven years. And a predominantly Indian consortium must be brought together to build an Indian gun within that period.

There are systems that remain beyond the capability of India’s defence establishment. Aircraft engines, even tank engines, have proven too complex for India to develop. The DRDO has also been unable to produce world-class night-vision devices; electro-optic sensors; and electronically scanned radars. But India’s growing technological capability has given it the capability to take on projects that were unthinkable two decades ago: fourth-generation fighters; advanced warships; even a tank with a gun that has proven to be world class.

India has the skills for building a 155-mm artillery gun; leadership is needed to bring them together. The DRDO, increasingly sophisticated and technologically capable, is yearning to harness the proven manufacturing skills of India’s private sector. Global majors like Bharat Forge and L&T are straining at the leash, willing to put money and muscle into what they have identified as a promising business vertical.

The Pinaka multi-barrelled rocket launcher (MBRL) has already proven how effectively the DRDO can leverage the private sector’s manufacturing skills. A state-of-the-art system, with electronics that are superior to even Russian frontline MBRLs, a single Pinaka regiment can obliterate a target 40 km away by pouring down 72 rockets onto it in just 44 seconds. The DRDO’s choice of L&T and Tata Power as industrial partners in the Pinaka project ensured that a quality design was enhanced by skilled manufacture. In the past, poor manufacturing practices, especially those of the public sector Ordnance Factory Board, had tarnished the reputation of otherwise well-designed DRDO products like the 5.56-mm INSAS rifle.

The MoD must bring together a public-private consortium, forming a joint venture (JV) — call it, for now, the Indian Artillery Project (IAP) — in which the DRDO, the Indian Army, and the prime private sector participants have financial stakes. The structure of the JV must allow for quick and flexible decision-making, without crippling regulations that mandate multi-vendor tendering and L-1 (lowest cost) procurement. And, most importantly, a project management group must be drawn from the IAP partners to set and monitor timelines ruthlessly.

The army will understandably resist this project, being desperately short of artillery and wanting guns yesterday. The most crucial component of combat capability, artillery guns — firing high explosive shells at faraway targets — have caused three quarters of all battlefield casualties over the last century of wars. But the soldiers will come around, given assurances about delivery within a clear time frame. Their choice is a stark one: continuing trials of foreign guns with no light certain at the end of the tunnel; or an official moratorium of five-to-seven years, followed by the simplified procurement processes of indigenous equipment. The army is also aware that an indigenous 155-mm gun can be integrated ground-up into the overarching Artillery Command, Control and Communications System (ACCCS) that networks artillery resources into a seamless whole.

If that is acceptable to the army, it must frame its requirements realistically, rather than demanding a system so advanced that it remains a dream. If a range of 40 km will suffice tactically, it is self-defeating to hold up the project by asking for 50 km. The DRDO too, with its institutional love for living in the future, will have to be firmly pegged to the here and now.

Constituting and financing the Indian Artillery Project will be small change, given what the MoD plans to pay global vendors for the four different 155-mm guns that the army needs. Multiple procurements are simultaneously unfolding under the MoD-sanctioned Artillery Modernisation Plan. The tender for 1,580 towed guns is worth an estimated Rs 8,000 crore. Another tender for 140 ultralight howitzers for mountain formations is worth over Rs 3,000 crore. Also being processed is a Rs 3,500 crore purchase of 100 medium guns, mounted on tracked vehicles, for India’s mechanised forces. Another Rs 4,000 crore is earmarked for 180 vehicle-mounted guns for self-propelled regiments. The total money in play here is some Rs 18,500 crore.

The MoD’s procurement procedures have a “Make” category, which has been envisioned for just such a project. The time for the Indian Artillery Project is now.

 

[CONNAN]

Bofors Ghost Forces Army To Scrap Gun Deal Again

 

[sancho]

-One is Barrel length , ULH/LTH are 155mm * 39 caliber gun while Normal Towed/Field gun are 155mm * 52 caliber gun .

-ULH should be designed so that Gun-Train should be capable of negotiating sharp road bends without the need to unhook the gun from the prime mover.

- Rest I think is same as Towed one , both can be airlifted .

So the main reason to go for other towed howitzers and not simply buy more of them, is the smaller caliber right?

You said that the Rheinmetall/Denel offer was ruled out because of Denel, that means the chances for Bhim must be very low too, but what about ammo from Denel like the VLAP, is it prohibited too?

Personally I think the ARCHER could be a good choice for self propelled and the FH 77 for towed howitzers, because IA has experience with the base gun and commonality would ease the licence production, not to mention that the Excalibur ammo would be exellent for precision hits and could be used then at all 3 types of howitzers, but I'm not sure if it is a good idea to depend that much on US weapons and arms.

 

[KEETARP]

So the main reason to go for other towed howitzers and not simply buy more of them, is the smaller caliber right?

You said that the Rheinmetall/Denel offer was ruled out because of Denel, that means the chances for Bhim must be very low too, but what about ammo from Denel like the VLAP, is it prohibited too?

Personally I think the ARCHER could be a good choice for self propelled and the FH 77 for towed howitzers, because IA has experience with the base gun and commonality would ease the licence production, not to mention that the Excalibur ammo would be exellent for precision hits and could be used then at all 3 types of howitzers, but I'm not sure if it is a good idea to depend that much on US weapons and arms.

Nice to see you after small break

1) Small caliber in addition to that , ULH unlike other Field artillery dosen't need to be broken + reassembled . Can easily be transported or Heli-lifted in mountains . This 145 numbers is for mountain division
Possibly more since along ind-Chi border mountain division is being developed .

2)Yes , as i said Rheinmetal has about 45pc stake /shares .
Or may be it overtook Denel , can't say exactly . i have to check the news for that .

But yes Bhim with T6 is gone ,
I am the most heart-broken person bcoz T6 was the strongest gun on this planet at that time .
Anyways K9 gun as was rumored and was shown at expo mounted on chasis . May be a new Avatar of Bhim on cards .

With regard to 155mm ammo , yes that's also over .
Ask JHA
he will probably tell more about the factory(School/marriage hall) where VLAP production was to happen .
IAI did offer TOT for ammo but they were also chased away by CBI

Personally I think the ARCHER could be a good choice for self propelled and the FH 77 for towed howitzers, because IA has experience with the base gun and commonality would ease the licence production, not to mention that the Excalibur ammo would be exellent for precision hits and could be used then at all 3 types of howitzers, but I'm not sure if it is a good idea to depend that much on US weapons and arms.

Yeah , that is only option left for Fast-track .
All from BAE would ease operation,spares .
Excalliber if allowed to be Locally produced would be good . Till that happens we would be firing those Krasnopol-M only .

I was sure Indian ammo is being produced , guess with some help from Israel
Ordnance Factory Board

But.......
then Sudhir brings this news today
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...ply-artillery-fuses-army-causing-concern.html

 

[sancho]

Nice to see you after small break

1) Small caliber in addition to that , ULH unlike other Field artillery dosen't need to be broken + reassembled . Can easily be transported or Heli-lifted in mountains . This 145 numbers is for mountain division
Possibly more since along ind-Chi border mountain division is being developed .

2)Yes , as i said Rheinmetal has about 45pc stake /shares .
Or may be it overtook Denel , can't say exactly . i have to check the news for that .

But yes Bhim with T6 is gone ,
I am the most heart-broken person bcoz T6 was the strongest gun on this planet at that time .
Anyways K9 gun as was rumored and was shown at expo mounted on chasis . May be a new Avatar of Bhim on cards .

With regard to 155mm ammo , yes that's also over .
Ask JHA
he will probably tell more about the factory(School/marriage hall) where VLAP production was to happen .
IAI did offer TOT for ammo but they were also chased away by CBI




Yeah , that is only option left for Fast-track .
All from BAE would ease operation,spares .
Excalliber if allowed to be Locally produced would be good . Till that happens we would be firing those Krasnopol-M only .

I was sure Indian ammo is being produced , guess with some help from Israel
Ordnance Factory Board

But.......
then Sudhir brings this news today
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...ply-artillery-fuses-army-causing-concern.html

Yeah, I am rarely online at weekends, especially not with such good weather here in Germany at the moment.

If VLAP still would be possible, I would love to see a team up with the German Rheinmetall for Bhim on basis of the PZH 2000. It can use VLAP too and with proven ranges up to 60Km, or even more. Also very interesting here is the AGM (Artillery Gun Module), a light weight version of the PZH 2000, that can be mounted on several different chassis (tracked, or wheeled):

Artillery Gun Module (AGM) 155-mm Self-Propelled Howitzer | Military-Today.com


Compared to Archer, it has comparable weight, speed and range, but is more than 4m shorter and offers 360° coverage (Archer can't fire to the rear area). But more important is that it can carry 30 rounds of ammo, while the Archer can only carry 20, so must be reloaded faster. The AGM imo is very mobile system that can be used in any region and with the addition of VLAP should even offer good ranges.

So M777 and FH 77 with Excalibur, or Krasnopol-M for the towed guns and AGM for the self-propelled howitzers would be a good solution for IA, with different capabilities. What do you think?

 

[KEETARP]

Yeah, I am rarely online at weekends, especially not with such good weather here in Germany at the moment.

If VLAP still would be possible,
I would love to see a team up with the German Rheinmetall for Bhim on basis of the PZH 2000. It can use VLAP too and with proven ranges up to 60Km, or even more. Also very interesting here is the AGM (Artillery Gun Module), a light weight version of the PZH 2000, that can be mounted on several different chassis (tracked, or wheeled):

Compared to Archer, it has comparable weight, speed and range, but is more than 4m shorter and offers 360° coverage (Archer can't fire to the rear area). But more important is that it can carry 30 rounds of ammo, while the Archer can only carry 20, so must be reloaded faster. The AGM imo is very mobile system that can be used in any region and with the addition of VLAP should even offer good ranges.

So M777 and FH 77 with Excalibur, or Krasnopol-M for the towed guns and AGM for the self-propelled howitzers would be a good solution for IA, with different capabilities. What do you think?

Red part is impossible now bcoz -

Indian towed-gun deal hits another snag - UPI.com

quoting from link above -

The CBI wrote to the defense ministry to recommend blacklisting of foreign firms Singapore Technologies Kinetics, Israel Military Industries, Zurich's Rheinmetall Air Defense and Russian Cooperation Defense. Also recommended for blacklisting are two Indian firms, T. S. Kisan and Company and R. K. Machines Tools.

There are fears that the entire tender process might be scrapped and restarted, said Brig. Khutab Hai, chief executive officer of the Mahindra Group's Defense Land Systems India, which will manufacture around 55 percent of the BAE Systems FH-77B-05 howitzer if it wins the contract.

"If STK is blacklisted, I apprehend that the MoD might entirely scrap the tender for towed howitzers, on the grounds that there is now just a single vendor," he said.

"But, remember, three companies had bid in this tender, Rheinmetall, STK and BAE Systems. Even if the other two are eliminated for various reasons, this was never a single-vendor situation."

Rheinmetall was dropped from the list when Indian procurement authorities realized it was working with banned South African company Denel.

Denel was and now rhienmetal is History
Laws have gone strict with blacklisting in defence sector . With Hon Def Min Antony around - Impossible for Rhienmetal to win law suite against CBI in Indian court .

So M777 and FH 77 with Excalibur, or Krasnopol-M for the towed guns and AGM for the self-propelled howitzers would be a good solution for IA, with different capabilities. What do you think?

If we talk reality -
My logic says M777 and Fh 77 for towed ones

ATMOS 2000 for Self-P guns , I favour it bcoz Israeli Army use their ATMOS system on TATRA trucks imported from India .
Why not replicate - here

Still , i would say
SP will be closely fought by ARCHER , ATMOS , CAESAR

France has been aggressively pushing CAESAR

 

[KEETARP]

ompared to Archer, it has comparable weight, speed and range, but is more than 4m shorter and offers 360° coverage (Archer can't fire to the rear area). But more important is that it can carry 30 rounds of ammo, while the Archer can only carry 20, so must be reloaded faster. The AGM imo is very mobile system that can be used in any region and with the addition of VLAP should even offer good ranges.

Missed this in replying

Actually - what matters is Recoil length , Firing rate , Extended Sustained firing rate .

This is where Bhim scored heavily against other foreign systems .

Not sure about utility of reward firing missing from Archer . Usually don't see back shot fired often

 

[sancho]

If we talk reality -
My logic says M777 and Fh 77 for towed ones

ATMOS 2000 for Self-P guns , I favour it bcoz Israeli Army use their ATMOS system on TATRA trucks imported from India .
Why not replicate - here

Still , i would say
SP will be closely fought by ARCHER , ATMOS , CAESAR

France has been aggressively pushing CAESAR

Here some basic specs for comparison (green = best in this field):

Caesar

Crew 3-5 men (normal 5 with 3 loaders)
Maximum firing range 34-42 km (latter with rocket ammo)
Maximum rate of fire 6 rpm
Main gun 18 rounds
Deployment time ~60s
MRSI (multiple-round
simultaneous - impact) ?

Note: Can be airlifted by the C-130


ATMOS

Crew 4-6 men (nomal 6 with 2 loaders)
Maximum firing range 30 - 41 km (latter with rocket ammo)
Maximum rate of fire 4 - 6 rpm
Main gun 27 rounds
Deployment time ~90s
MRSI 4 rounds

Note: Can be airlifted with a C-130


Archer
Crew 2-4 men (2 possible with auto loading)
Maximum firing range 30 - 60 km (latter with Excalibur ammo)
Maximum rate of fire 8 - 9 rpm
Main gun 21 rounds
Deployment time ~30s
MRSI 6 rounds

Note: Can be airlifted by the Airbus A400M


For comparison

Bhim

Crew 2-4 men (2 possible with auto loading)
Maximum firing range 41 - 50+ km (latter with VLAP ammo)
Maximum rate of fire 8 rpm
Main gun 20 + 20 rounds
Deployment time ?
MRSI 6 rounds

Note: Can not be airlifted


Going by these specs and the lack of VLAP, the ARCHER Artillery is clearly the best choice! Downside is airlifting only with bigger transport aircrafts.

Here a nice BAE video of the Archer in HD:

 

[CONNAN]

Bofors In The Wilderness

LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: Bofors In The Wilderness

Just received this picture of what appears to be the BAE-Bofors FH77-B05-L52 towed gun in Leh, Jammu & Kashmir. On July 28, the MoD officially gave Parliament a list of vendors that have been recommended recently for a blacklist, and it reads like a roll-call of modern gun makers. ST Kinetics and Rheinmetall join the hallowed company of Soltam and Den

 

[sancho]

On July 28, the MoD officially gave Parliament a list of vendors that have been recommended recently for a blacklist, and it reads like a roll-call of modern gun makers. ST Kinetics and Rheinmetall join the hallowed company of Soltam and Den[/B]

If Soltam is blacklisted, shouldn't be the ATMOS out too? That would leave the Caesar and Archer systems only and the Archer is clearly better.

 

[Kinetic]

Kinetic I've had just about enough of your 'holier than thou' bull$hit. I don't know what's gotten into you but lately you've been talking like your head is in your rectum. I was born and raised outside India but I have never considered myself anything but Indian.

I have also got enough of your ranting. Thats what you learned being outside India!

You yourself is a bull$hit. Thats why you can use such language, I hate those people first left India and then hate India. I feel sorry for this country because B$hit like you born here. Thats why my country is not improving. Don't ever call yourself Indian, coward. Why don't America-lover like you directly born in that country and left India aside????

Many people work or study abroad by I never seen them to hate India like this in every way!!!

I am not going to put anything more because there is nothing subjective in your post. If you want to rant more PM me.

 

[saumyasupratik]

Here some basic specs for comparison (green = best in this field):

Caesar

Crew 3-5 men (normal 5 with 3 loaders)
Maximum firing range 34-42 km (latter with rocket ammo)
Maximum rate of fire 6 rpm
Main gun 18 rounds
Deployment time ~60s
MRSI (multiple-round
simultaneous - impact) ?

Note: Can be airlifted by the C-130


ATMOS

Crew 4-6 men (nomal 6 with 2 loaders)
Maximum firing range 30 - 41 km (latter with rocket ammo)
Maximum rate of fire 4 - 6 rpm
Main gun 27 rounds
Deployment time ~90s
MRSI 4 rounds

Note: Can be airlifted with a C-130


Archer
Crew 2-4 men (2 possible with auto loading)
Maximum firing range 30 - 60 km (latter with Excalibur ammo)
Maximum rate of fire 8 - 9 rpm
Main gun 21 rounds
Deployment time ~30s
MRSI 6 rounds

Note: Can be airlifted by the Airbus A400M


For comparison

Bhim

Crew 2-4 men (2 possible with auto loading)
Maximum firing range 41 - 50+ km (latter with VLAP ammo)
Maximum rate of fire 8 rpm
Main gun 20 + 20 rounds
Deployment time ?
MRSI 6 rounds

Note: Can not be airlifted


Going by these specs and the lack of VLAP, the ARCHER Artillery is clearly the best choice! Downside is airlifting only with bigger transport aircrafts.

I would suggest the Bhim should not be compared with the mounted Howitzers you mentioned above.Bhim is a self-propelled tracked howitzer.The CAESAR,ATMOS,ARCHER & Denel T5 are all mounted howitzer's that is they are mounted on a truck for higher mobility and are light weight
but still require the crew to get down and load each shell manually apart from the ARCHER which has an automated system but still requires crew to load ammunition once it's exhausted it's shells.


Bhim T6,RTG-52,PzH 2000 likewise have a crew mounted turret

If they do issue new tenders hope these be the contenders

Ultra Light Howitzers
BAE Systems M777
ST Kinetics SLWH Pegasus

Towed Field Howitzers
BAE Systems FH 77B05 L52
Denel Land Systems G5-2000
Soltams ATHOS
ST Kinetics FH-2000

Mounted Howitzers
BAE Systems ARCHER
Denel Land Systems T5-52
Soltams ATMOS 2000
Nexter CAESAR
Soltams RASCAL

Self-Propelled Wheeled Howitzers
Denel Land Systems G6-52
Rheinmetall RWG-52
ShKH ZUZANA/ZUZANA 2

Self-Propelled Tracked Howitzers
Denel Land Systems T6-52/Bhim
Rheinmetall RTG-52
ShKH HIMALAYA/HIMALAYA 2(They already have a L52 turret for the ZUZANA 2 so I am hoping they would create one as well for a tracked chasis)
Krauss-Maffei Wegmann PzH 2000
Krauss-Maffei Wegmann Artillery Gun Module
Nexter GCT AUF2
AS90 Bravehart
HSW S.A. AHS Krab
Samsung Techwin K9 Thunder

 

[black flame]

so what is the point even this RPF is going to be canceled any ways until govt has the balls to do the rite thing.............. we just wait and wait and wait and they will buy the howitzer when we have our grand kids................

 

[Hulk]

Guys please do not get excited about what is happening with Atrillary deals, past is past. I personally know people who are working on this deal *PERSONALLY*. I have been told that they know what needs to be done and it will be settled in 2 years time. It takes time to get this done, but things are on fast track. The trials takes time and last time ST was not cooperative on this front which delayed the matter. Also Bofors is their first choice.