First Block 2 JF-17s under construction in Pakistan

[Didact]

That's why the word 'clean' was at number 5 position in my sentence that you quoted.



What we are talking here is facts. JF-17's KLJ-7 will detect 10 m2 SU30 at about the same range as Su30's radar will detect a 5m2 target. So from detection point of view, that extra range on Su30 is nullified. Both have good BVRs, SD10 contains Russian technology any way, that went into the R7x series. So i am not sure why you think Su30 cannot get into a fight with JF-17? Because Su30 is big in size?
Because India bought it so it must be the best?
Because you are a troll?
Because your local sabzi wala told you so?

Nope, what you are talking is conjecture intertwined with biased opinions, not facts. Facts would be official data from both Sukhoi/Tikhomirov Scientific Research Institute of Instrument Design and the designers of KLJ-7, which we both know is not forthcoming anytime soon.

The next point is the pulse Doppler radar is far inferior to the PESA in every aspect of its operations, that extends from the peak power output to the processor to the superior transceiver.

The higher peak output provides coupled with the faster processor provides higher, significantly higher resistance to jamming and other ECMs, while each transceiver on the antenna array of N011M has its own receiver amplifier, which is the same as AESA, and with noise level of 3dB, which is also in the same class of AESA arrays.

And it is these advantages onboard the Su that will have a bigger effect on the outcome of a BVR engagement between the MKI and the JF, more so than the range some here try to dish out.

The JF-17 was never intended as a counter to the MKIs. It's and aircraft that fits in with the PAF strategy of holding out while at the same time while maintaining some semblance of airspace control for as long as possible, hopefully till a UN/US/China brokered ceasefire comes into effect.

A JF-17 flying CAP would and should be pleased enough to force a MKI strike group to bail on its objectives. Anything over and above that would be an exceptional result.

Nope, what you are talking is conjecture intertwined with biased opinions, not facts. Facts would be official data from both Sukhoi/Tikhomirov Scientific Research Institute of Instrument Design and the designers of KLJ-7, which we both know is not forthcoming anytime soon.

The next point is the pulse Doppler radar is far inferior to the PESA in every aspect of its operations, that extends from the peak power output to the processor to the superior transceiver.

The higher peak output provides coupled with the faster processor provides higher, significantly higher resistance to jamming and other ECMs, while each transceiver on the antenna array of N011M has its own receiver amplifier, which is the same as AESA, and with noise level of 3dB, which is also in the same class of AESA arrays.

And it is these advantages onboard the Su that will have a bigger effect on the outcome of a BVR engagement between the MKI and the JF, more so than the range some here try to dish out.

The JF-17 was never intended as a counter to the MKIs. It's and aircraft that fits in with the PAF strategy of holding out while at the same time while maintaining some semblance of airspace control for as long as possible, hopefully till a UN/US/China brokered ceasefire comes into effect.

A JF-17 flying CAP would and should be pleased enough to force a MKI strike group to bail on its objectives. Anything over and above that would be an exceptional result.

An anecdote: It would be similar to a Sherman or a Cromwell or a T-34-76 v/s a Tiger I in WW2. The allies did manage to kill over 1700 tigers, but that cost them some 10,000 tanks.

 

[rockstarIN]

Interesting thing would be to see the following happen.

• How a 'Clean' JF-17 looks like on radar.
• What if an enclosed weapons pod is developed for belly mounted hard point and the jet is employed without fuel tanks.
• 2X SD-10s inside the pod + AEWC aircraft link which has a detection range of 400kms and the capability to guide radar guided missiles.

Im wondering what the symmetry would be in such a scenario

Can you, for a change, put the exact scenario like below,

• A bison, lowest RCS (with 2x R77+ELTA Jammer)+best AWAC which have the same range of 400+kms with capability to guide radar missiles.

Now, change the bison to:-

1. M2k with 4 or 6 MICA+ Radar Jammer
2. Mig-29 UPG 4xR77M + Radar Jammer
3. MKI- 10-12 x R77 + ELTA Pod

Forget about Rafale/FGFA for a time being.

 

[danger007]

That's why the word 'clean' was at number 5 position in my sentence that you quoted.



What we are talking here is facts. JF-17's KLJ-7 will detect 10 m2 SU30 at about the same range as Su30's radar will detect a 5m2 target. So from detection point of view, that extra range on Su30 is nullified. Both have good BVRs, SD10 contains Russian technology any way, that went into the R7x series. So i am not sure why you think Su30 cannot get into a fight with JF-17? Because Su30 is big in size?
Because India bought it so it must be the best?
Because you are a troll?
Because your local sabzi wala told you so?

Just check your post and mine... I haven't said one word against jf 17 ... but you are calling me troll... see who is trolling... I just said EW, weapons package, engine, climb rate , radar, range, RCS everything matters.. you are just taking down mki because of is RCS ... you are trying to nullify whatever advantage mki holds( in Internet forum)...

 

[That Guy]

With over 700 aircrafts calculate a certain ratio still 3:1 IAF is very realistic and will deploy in that manner. IAF would not look into PAF small fleet "therefore deploy in small numbers against PAF such soft doctrine does not exist, the point is over whelm opponent...they will they always have. JF-17 is meant to counter anything in indian inventory PAF is literally out of options PAF will use whatever they have against whatever they counter. 76 or even 100 is not enough numbers PAF is depending on its strategies to counter how successful it would be that would be known in any real Air War. More F-16s and improved JF-17s more in numbers would be a good combination however funds is the problem but Gov can always arrange depends on their will to help.

Fuel consumption, cost of operation, etc should all be considered when talking about deploying an air force. India has a large fleet, but they cannot afford to deploy them at the same time, it would bankrupt India within days. A few dozen at most are deployed at any given time, and considering Pakistan's and India's previous air campaigns, it may not even be that much.

The JF-17 would get blown out of the sky against the Su-30s, so your argument that the thunder is meant to be a deterrent against the Sukhois is unrealistic. The F-16s are meant to take care of the high tech end, thus counter India's advanced fleet, and the JF-17 is meant to take care of the low tech end, thus counter India's low tech fleet. That is why Pakistan Air Force has a hi-lo doctrine.

 

[Luftwaffe]

Fuel consumption, cost of operation, etc should all be considered when talking about deploying an air force. India has a large fleet, but they cannot afford to deploy them at the same time, it would bankrupt India within days. A few dozen at most are deployed at any given time, and considering Pakistan's and India's previous air campaigns, it may not even be that much.

The JF-17 would get blown out of the sky against the Su-30s, so your argument that the thunder is meant to be a deterrent against the Sukhois is unrealistic. The F-16s are meant to take care of the high tech end, thus counter India's advanced fleet, and the JF-17 is meant to take care of the low tech end, thus counter India's low tech fleet. That is why Pakistan Air Force has a hi-lo doctrine.

They have no restrictive budgetary constraints for IAF, they can afford if they could not they would not have offered good amount to upgrade Mirage 2000s over the top they have plans for 214 PAK-FA lets not take them lightly. Lets not believe that F-16s are our only first and last line of defense. Air Campaign, equipment and tactics are changing. There is no other option whatever PAF has will be used in variety of configurations for verity of Operations. A scenario of 60 Rafales, 120 Flankers and good Number of Fulcrums against hand full of F-16s is not a good scenario. Hi-low doctrine even if it is there how do you suppose to counter 272 Flanker and 126 Rafales with 76 F-16s in future, do you believe every time F-16 would score and Flanker/Rafales pilots would not change their tactics or have no tactics to counter? Because they are also training with Singaporean Air Force who happen to have F-16s.

 

[That Guy]

They have no restrictive budgetary constraints for IAF, they can afford if they could not they would not have offered good amount to upgrade Mirage 2000s over the top they have plans for 214 PAK-FA lets not take them lightly. Lets not believe that F-16s are our only first and last line of defense. Air Campaign, equipment and tactics are changing. There is no other option whatever PAF has will be used in variety of configurations for verity of Operations. A scenario of 60 Rafales, 120 Flankers and good Number of Fulcrums against hand full of F-16s is not a good scenario. Hi-low doctrine even if it is there how do you suppose to counter 272 Flanker and 126 Rafales with 76 F-16s in future, do you believe every time F-16 would score and Flanker/Rafales pilots would not change their tactics or have no tactics to counter? Because they are also training with Singaporean Air Force who happen to have F-16s.

I feel like you ignored my comment. IAF cannot deploy that many fighters at the same time, it simply isn't possible. In case of war, budgetary constraints are usually lifted, but only for so long as the nation can afford it.

No nation on earth, not even the US, can afford to deploy hundreds of fighters into the air for a long period of time. It is not a matter of want or need, but a matter of what is possible.

I also did not say that PAF's first and only line of defence is F-16, in fact, that is exactly the opposite of what I'm saying.

Look, I like you, I consider you a friend on the forum, but I need you to thoroughly read my comment before you reply. I'm not a regular member, I'm a fellow TT, I deserve at least that much respect.

 

[fatman17]

i thought this thread was about JFT-Blk-2 not india v. pakistan air doctrines.

 

[Donatello]

Pak will deploy everything that you will have against indian airforce.. any country will do same against any enemy..


Su 30 mki
Mig 29 upg
Hal tejas
Mirage 2000 mk2
D Rafele

India upgrating our fleets but still Pak lacking on this matter.... f-16 blk 50 is gud but rest r tech. Very behind compare to indian air fleet.
Jf 17 just like Hal tejas... both are not forntline aircrafts.... they will only useful for intercept...

I think pakistan should get new machiene if u talking about india.... liike j10 b from China... f-16 blk 50 is only gud aircarft in pak inventory...

Hey everyone, look another Super power post.

Post reported for trolling.

 

[WishLivePak]

Good.

But Pakistan should work on some 4.5 gen fighter now jointly with Saudi Arabia & UAE. Pakistan got best experienced engineers whereas KSA & UAE have plenty of resources.

resources buy american
They ordered bunch of f15s and rafaels etc

if they didn't have resources they'd have looked at us

 

[shanis]

resources buy american
They ordered bunch of f15s and rafaels etc

if they didn't have resources they'd have looked at us

i dont think we have to go to saudia n UAE ... etc ...
IN SHA ALLAH ... JF-17 is a best fighter aircrafts and we have to admit it ...
and with more hard work we have to work on Block 2 and 3 and after block 3 jF-17 block 4 with more latest upgrades.
we must work on JF-17 blocks ... because we are doing and making in Pakistan so for upgrades we can easily updates our JF-17 thunders.... we must hard work on JF-17 thunder blocks and make these jets F-16's F-15's tofoon and suk 30 mki standard.

because after some years it will be hard for us to upgrade F-16's from america or UAE ..... so we must work on our JF-thunders ...

 

[shanis]

RIght now i am waiting two things about JF-17 thudner block 1 or 2

1. when you will see Block 2 to fly
2. when PAF use JF thunder to participate in exercise with other country like china, turkey ...

 

[Sankpal]

Hey everyone, look another Super power post.

Post reported for trolling.

I am SAD....... 1st time my post reported

 

[Luftwaffe]

I feel like you ignored my comment. IAF cannot deploy that many fighters at the same time, it simply isn't possible. In case of war, budgetary constraints are usually lifted, but only for so long as the nation can afford it.

No nation on earth, not even the US, can afford to deploy hundreds of fighters into the air for a long period of time. It is not a matter of want or need, but a matter of what is possible.

I also did not say that PAF's first and only line of defence is F-16, in fact, that is exactly the opposite of what I'm saying.

Look, I like you, I consider you a friend on the forum, but I need you to thoroughly read my comment before you reply. I'm not a regular member, I'm a fellow TT, I deserve at least that much respect.

My friend I did read your posts and your respect is always maintained we may not agree but let's look at it realistically without prejudice...we are debating I am presenting my point of view from perspective of IAF having unrestricted Funds their Air Force is 3-4 times bigger their FOREX is also in world's top 7 they have Major allies friends that would sell them almost anything either Russians or US. In limited time period IAF can deploy modern Aircrafts 3:1 that is enough again the point is to over whelm opposition that is something IAF has learned effectively from US. What I am trying to say is PAF will use F-16s and JF-17s against IAF inventory whatever is deployed for verity of missions it all comes down to how effective and the way to employ PAF's strategies/tactics and how IAF would counter it with much potent larger Fleet relatively. However I disagree that F-16s are only to counter Flankers and later Rafales and JF-17s are to counter older fleets of IAF forgetting Fulcrums. As far as bankruptcy is concerned PAF would be first one to be concerned about themselves.

@fatman17 the debate is will JF-17 counter IAF Flankers or not my point of view is yes PAF has no other option except for F-16s and JF-17s to be deployed against IAF as a realistic approach however my friend may disagree.

 

[Donatello]

I am SAD....... 1st time my post reported

It won't be last if you keep trolling.

 

[cengizkahra330]

woooow these are GORGEOUS