Final operational clearance for Tejas again delayed till next year

[Indian Jatt]

Your General says you don't have an ammo storage to fight more than 20 days. Lol, 20 days yours, the rest of the world will be ours. Radio Pakistan Delhi.

U dont even have 5 days of ammunition....... We can finish u off in just 10 days......u are like poland we can capture and sustaine war.....and we are like russia.....u can penetrate us but cannot hold ur position.....ur soldiers can run then....20 days of ammo is enough for whole Pakistan...

My son ... Please stop thibk from your behind.. Each and every part of JF-17 is made in Pak .. minus engine...


Su-30 is assembled (in knock down kits) by india.




Putar teri baad Mein loun ga (class). Abhi buzy Hoon ... Wait kar.

HUDs and MFD etc = 30% of SU-30? Betw most of these also are also probably produced under tot from other nations.

Sabar kar leta hoon teri ... Class.

Tu kya class lega bhai???.....pehle khud toh padhyii karle, even su 30 mki is made india....only titanium blocks are sent to india, rest of the work is done by india......even AL31F engines are assembled in India........and also SU-30 MKI are air superiority fighter do not compare it with an interceptor

 

[Water Car Engineer]

These guys really think they did so much with their annual budget of $6 Billion dollars? Which most isnt even going into R&D. They dont even have a private industry to take in some of the costs for the heavy R&D spending to which is required to produce a whole system, and it's subsystems. And also testing and validating them. So where is the money coming from for your indigenous development?

We all know who did the work in your, "JV". It's the one that toiled in the aerospace industry for decades, and has the deep pockets to support an aerospace industry.

If you were even a little bit as transparent as India was when it comes to defence, you would know where your industry stands.

 

[MAJESTICAL]

That you gonna pee? Wats new? every one does that.

That baby meant that its gonna pee on Tejas so stop

Yipee Yay Yoo!

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

These guys really think they did so much with their annual budget of $6 Billion dollars? Which most isnt even going into R&D. They dont even have a private industry to take in some of the costs for the heavy R&D spending to which is required to produce a whole system, and it's subsystems. And also testing and validating them. So where is the money coming from for your indigenous development?

We all know who did the work in your, "JV". It's the one that toiled in the aerospace industry for decades, and has the deep pockets to support an aerospace industry.

If you were even a little bit as transparent as India was when it comes to defence, you would know where your industry stands.

The basic budget is 7.5 billion... FFG's also earn billions ... 1-5-2 billion CSF, etc etc...


An Hamari chor Bhai ... Apni dekh ... 1980s --- 2019?

 

[MAJESTICAL]

Suppa Duppa Fanboys

 

[Water Car Engineer]

The basic budget is 7.5 billion... FFG's also earn billions ... 1-5-2 billion CSF, etc etc...


An Hamari chor Bhai ... Apni dekh ... 1980s --- 2019?

Yeah, that garbage budget. Most will be going to support the upkeep of your men and equipment, pensions, modernization, etc. How much is left for R&D? Not even a billion, obviously. Most of which surely goes to missiles. You dont have a private sector to speak of to absorb the costs for R&D, where is the funding coming from to produce anything worth while?

What is 1980s to 2019? I dont understand Hindi. Are you referring to wrongly stated LCA timeline? 1985 is the founding of ADA, DRDO's aerospace R&D division.

 

[GURU DUTT]

ehm ehm

JF-17 dubbed as indegenous is as good as your tejas are indegenous becasue we make 58% of the JF-17 at home rest with CHINA and we call it a JOINT venture to correct you and i mentioned your TEJAS BECAUSE you make 60% of your TEJAS if you don't know than research on finding some facts sir your engine is American your radar is israeli your weapon pakage is western your design is french and your avionics is western israeli mix too so if you can call that kind of machine indegenous than whats wrong with us calling JF-17 a joint venture ??? we only make 2% less aircraft than your indegenous one

And assembling and making is two different thing go do some research i think you just like to blabber before doing some research......


1. What does western sympathy gave us in last 67 years on kashmir cause ??

2. Trust of US and NATO ha nice joke thats why US still giving us there top of the line zulu's and still 18 f-16 block 52s can be bought of the shelf anytime because we have permission of US from long time ago rest we are avoiding US made waepons from the fear of sanctions .....

3. US !!! come on we are leaving uncle sam slowly and steadily and its not dependence its called being allies as US to israel and europeans to US so we are also collabarating in every field with China from defense to economy my friend and becomming self reliant in every field by taking baby steps good for us...

4 and 5. OH GOD go do some research law and order has never been better and its getting futher better after the op against terrorist in PAK started and economy is getting higher from time to time slowly and steadily.

6. And like PAK army still using 50year old weaponary right ?? seriously are you following PDF only this year we started alot of modernisation programs for PAK army, Airforce, and NAVY

7.Again metioning 71 hahahahaha you are really good at chest thumping aren't you ??? if guys were good as 71 in this era you wouldn't have ran off in 2002 and 2008 standoffs and still searching for your surgical strikes though

lagta hai Pakistani fanboys in their hate for india have totally lost it

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Yeah, that garbage budget. Most will be going to support the upkeep of your men and equipment, pensions, modernization, etc.

unlike india we don't have a million men and obsolete soviet equipment to replace... Nor a corrupt military junta .. or a crappy "babu" run "procurement" process.


Heavy equipment etc are funded and produced by military run industries whivh actually deliver products - companies like HIT,PAC,POF,GIDS,MRVDE,KSY,KRL,several Complexes like Complex of Optronics etc.. That's why there is no mismanagement unlike your case...Where it takes decades and billions and product either doesn't give satisfactory results or remains on drawing board and indian mil ends up importing stuff from third parties.

P.S; Pensions aren't paid from our defence budget.. Nor is nuclear budget part of it...(it's seperate).

How much is left for R&D? Not even a billion, obviously. Most of which surely goes to missiles. You dont have a private sector to speak of to absorb the costs for R&D, where is the funding coming from to produce anything worth while?

Lmao... We do have private defence companies which produce UAV's,Armour,Armoured vehicles,defence equipment,military optics like NVGs,LR Obs systems,thermal sights etc.. Heavy armoured Tracked vehicles,Heavy transporters,small arms etc.. Just cuz we don't boast or chest thump about these things don't mean we don't have them...

2 examples--- prodyced by a private Pak company;

What is 1980s to 2019? I dont understand Hindi. Are you referring to wrongly stated LCA timeline? 1985 is the founding of ADA, DRDO's aerospace R&D division.

Ok ustad please induct a SQD of Supa dupa LCA before bad mouthing others.

 

[Luca1]

By that time, it will be obsolete.

It's obsolete on arrival

 

[Water Car Engineer]

unlike india we don't have a million men and obsolete soviet equipment to replace... Nor a corrupt military junta .. or a crappy "babu" run "procurement" process.

You're going to tell me you dont have outdated crap in your inventory? Give me a break. Did you just call the IA a military junta? How many times have the PA over taken and manipulated your civilian gov? They're probably still doing it to this day.

Lmao... We do have private defence companies which produce UAV's,Armour,Armoured vehicles,defence equipment,military optics like NVGs,LR Obs systems,thermal sights etc.. Heavy armoured Tracked vehicles,Heavy transporters,small arms etc.. Just cuz we don't boast or chest thump about these things don't mean we don't have them...
.

They're all assembled crap, literally what every other company in Pakistan does. Just because they dont tell you this like India does, doesnt mean it's not assembled crap. If they were even a little transparent, you would know where you stand.

Again, where is the money coming from to do serious R&D in Pakistan? It doesnt exist, and yet you wanna believe that everything just magically appears in your lala land?

You dont have multi billion dollar companies like TATAs, Mahindras, Reliance, L&T, etc,etc, etc. who are starting to enter the sector, even they are starting out by assembling designs from outside, and you want people to believe some no name companies in Pakistan with limited resources is out there produce serious designs by themselves, ok.

Heavy equipment etc are funded and produced by military run industries whivh actually deliver products - companies like HIT,PAC,POF,GIDS,MRVDE,KSY,KRL,several Complexes like Complex of Optronics etc.. That's why there is no mismanagement unlike your case...Where it takes decades and billions and product either doesn't give satisfactory results or remains on drawing board and indian mil ends up importing stuff from third parties.

India has been assembling other people's designs for generations, like what your companies are doing, you can look at the long list of items.

But you sure as hell cant manage a serious aerospace project, etc. without leeching off of China's decades worth of work.

Again, how much of that 6-7 billion dollar garbage budget is going to R&D? It's not even going to be a billion, which in itself is a joke.

You dont have the money for it, so you rightly assemble crap or sow things together, which is fine considering what you're working with. But dont try to demean other peoples efforts, when you havent even done the serious work.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

You're going to tell me you dont have outdated crap in your inventory? Give me a break.

Not as much as yours... The only outdated crap we have is old type series tanks which we are replacing with AK's and Oplots (60% of which will be produced under ToT). And Cobras which are upgraded meanwhile vipers,35Ms and Z-10s will replace...

Did you just call the IA a military junta? How many times have the PA over taken and manipulated your civilian gov? They're probably still doing it to this day.

most of you ppl cry n complain about indian military being reluctant to induct "desi" stuff...coz of Kickbacks?

They're all assembled crap, literally what every other company in Pakistan does. Just because they dont tell you this like India does, doesnt mean it's assembled crap. If you were even a little transparent, you would know where you stand.

assembled crap? Lmao .. That company "produces" stuff in Pak and supplies to Pak mil aswell as exports to third countries.. As for transparency ... What transparency sir? That one in which most of your "indigenous" weapons are assembled in india with dozens of Foriegn companies providing parts? Want me to quote the sources of "indigenous" products and the % of Foriegn parts that result in shortages??? If that's transparency that God save us from that.

Again, where is the money coming from to do serious R&D in Pakistan? It doesnt exist, and yet you wanna believe that everything just magically appears in your lala land?

It appears from military budget .. The military develops these products and finances them .. These things don't pop up on a day .. There is a reason why years are spent .. Even JFs 58+% cost was funded by PAF.

You dont have multi billion dollar companies like TATAs, Mahindras, Reliance, L&T, etc,etc, etc. who are starting to enter the sector, even they are starting out by assembling designs from outside, and you want people to believe some no name companies in Pakistan with limited resources is out there produce serious designs by themselves, ok.

none of those companies are weapon producers.. Those companies produce microwaves,tata cars etc.. It was only recently they came up with "JV's" offering to work with top weapon producers ... I.E; mating an already mass produced gun from DENEL or Nexter on an indian truck is hardly an "achievement"...

India has been doing assembling other people's designs for generations, like what your companies are doing, you can look at the long list of items.

Aparently that didn't work out well for HAL or DRDO.

But you sure as hell cant manage a serious aerospace project, etc. without leeching off of China's decades worth of work.

Sure is that why HAL has been leeching in Israel for radars,France for avionics,foriegn companies for designs...your Arjun is based on leopard -- which still didn't go well.. Your dhruv is based on MB BK heli... The French "consulted" you on LCA.. Do you want exact figures of your leeching on foriegn companies for designs,systems,parts etc???

Again, how much of that 6-7 billion dollar garbage budget is going to R&D? It's not even going to be a billion, which in itself is a joke.

And still we managed to produce systems you are struggling with for decades despite the "money" and foriegn help?

You dont have the money for it, so you rightly assemble crap or sow things together, which is fine considering what you're working with.

Funny we "assemble" and sow stuff with out performs your supa dupa "indigenous" "foriegn made.. indian assembled" stuff your own military doesn't induct? Meanwhile we export ours?

As for money... Sure apparently .. Just this year (till now) we got 400+ M-1117s,80 M-109s,500+ APCS & IFV's... Dragoon IFV (under ToT),15 Vipers,UCAVs,JF-17 BLK II,8 subs and upgrades to Meltem upgrades for PN ATRs,Oplot Ms,Panters howitzers(also produced under ToT),Production of A-100s,MI-35s ,Uqaab LAV,Protector Armoured Vehicles,250+ MRAPs,new POF sniper rifles,new POF guns.. etc etc because we have no money!


Your sole and stupid arguement is based on "money"...

 

[Water Car Engineer]

most of you ppl cry n complain about indian military being reluctant to induct "desi" stuff...coz of Kickbacks?

You think there isnt kickbacks in your establishments? Some people in the military being corrupt isnt a junta either. Junta is more of a military force completely stripping the civilian government of it's rights, and replace it's function with it own. You know where you stand there. <<<< If they had the balls to that several times, corruption is least I suspect from them.

assembled crap? Lmao .. That company "produces" stuff in Pak and supplies to Pak mil aswell as exports to third countries.. As for transparency ... What transparency sir? That one in which most of your "indigenous" weapons are assembled in india with dozens of Foriegn companies providing parts? Want me to quote the sources of "indigenous" products and the % of Foriegn parts that result in shortages??? If that's transparency that God save us from that.

Yes, India has been producing, assembling, and supplying for generations. There's nothing new in it.

You know where your sources of the so and so "indigenous" content or whatever of a platform is coming from? It's all coming from India.

Like I said, if your establishments were even nearly as transparent as India's, you would know where you would stand. If India never provided the sources to begin with, you would be as clueless as what's the "indigenous" content of assembled crap you think it's yours.

Sure is that why HAL has been leeching in Israel for radars,France for avionics,foriegn companies for designs...your Arjun is based on leopard -- which still didn't go well.. Your dhruv is based on MB BK heli... The French "consulted" you on LCA.. Do you want exact figures of your leeching on foriegn companies for designs,systems,parts etc???

How do you know it's based on the MB BK? They're not even of the same size, and only somewhat look a like. There's a difference between having them consult on the design, and outright source the designing, testing, and validation of the platforms, and build it in the country, which Pakistan does.

And HALs effort in the Dhruv project turned out great, with several marks and variants of the platform in place.

With even a heavily modified gun ship trialing and LUH prototyping. All off the Dhruv experience.

As for money... Sure apparently .. Just this year we got 400+ M-1117s,80 M-109s,500+ APCS & IFV's... Dragoon IFV (under ToT),15 Vipers,UCAVs,JF-17 BLK II,8 subs and upgrades to Meltem upgrades for PN ATRs,Oplot Ms,Production of A-100s,MI-35s ,Uqaab LAV,Protector Armoured Vehicles,250+ MRAPs... etc etc because we have no money!

I added modernization in that list, now out of the garbage $7 billion is going to R&D to produce your "indigenous" crap? If it's not even a billion, you know where your industry stands in producing anything serious like airplanes, etc. in house.

none of those companies are weapon producers.. Those companies produce microwaves,tata cars etc.. It was only recently they came up with "JV's" offering to work with top weapon producers ... I.E; mating an already mass produced gun from DENEL or Nexter on an indian truck is hardly an "achievement"...

They have their own defence branches. And actually, these branches are already ahead of your no name firms.

They're already making FICV chassis, ICBM canisters, nuclear sub hulls, missile seekers, etc. Though many are being helped along by DRDO, etc. Which is fine for now.

In the next 10 years, that gap will be significantly wider.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Next time QUOTE my post so I get so I get a notice and reply!

You think there isnt kickbacks in your establishments? Some people in the military being corrupt isnt a junta either. Junta is more of a military force completely stripping the civilian government of it's rights, and replace it's function with it own. You know where you stand there. <<<< If they had the balls to that several times, corruption is least I suspect from them.

nothing compared to what you have... From coffin scam,arty gun scam,getting caught with russian hookers,wide swapping,the Arjun scam,dud ammo and missile contract scam,Tatra truck scam etc etc ,.

It's either your military is corrupt to the core or your much bragged "industries" are incompetent to the core... No other reason why indian "weapons" aren't inducted by her own military.

Yes, India has been producing, assembling, and supplying for generations. There's nothing new in it.

Even assembled stuff is very much prone to accidents... Crashes... Etc

You know where your sources of the so and so "indigenous" content or whatever of a platform is coming from? It's all coming from India.

should I come from US or Pak? Would you accept other sources? In short yes ... The claims of "indigenous" systems is debunker by your own (indian) sources.

Like I said, if your establishments were even nearly as transparent as India's, you would know where you would stand. If India never provided the sources to begin with, you would be as clueless as what's the "indigenous" content of assembled crap you think it's yours.

But our products are exported to several nations and the systems,inports or JVs are mentioned .. But unlike you we don't claim that our product is 100% indigenous (even if it's a JV or produced under ToT) despite the fact that ours are successfully in service ... Meanwhile yours are either in the drawing board or refused by your own military despite most if them being procured from third parties and the "desi" tag..

How do you know it's based on the MB BK? They're not even of the same size, and only somewhat look a like. There's a difference between having them consult on the design, and outright source the designing, testing, and validation of the platforms, and build it in the country, which Pakistan does.

And HALs effort in the Dhruv project turned out great, with several marks and variants of the platform in place.

So it looks like a MB ... It's design was "consulted" by MB... All of its systems are imported from 2 dozen companies but it's indian and 100% indigenous?


In reality a staggering 90% of your "dhruv heli" is imported from other nations yet it's "indigenous"!!!



Want the chart with the imported systems described & sources??

I added modernization in that list, now out of the garbage $7 billion is going to R&D to produce your "indigenous" crap? If it's not even a billion, you know where your industry stands in producing anything serious like airplanes, etc. in house.

repeating nonsense over and over again won't change reality...

We Dalai produced a new long ranged ground radar this year... A team of Pak scientists also won a US patent on ECM,Radar tech just 2 days back... New uavs and unmanned ground drones,new ATGM etc were also developed,Pak also became a member of CERN..


Your Nonsense arguementbis nothing but chutiyapa and has a nuisance value nothing else.

They have their own defence branches. And actually, these branches are already ahead of your no name firms.

They're already making FICV chassis, ICBM canisters, nuclear sub hulls, missile seekers, etc. Though many are being helped along by DRDO, etc. Which is fine for now.

In the next 10 years, that gap will be significantly wider.

your pinaka eqvilent was developed by Pak years ago!

Missile seekers ? Yes we have no missiles poor us..... you have 1 odd CM .. A modified Yakhont from Russia... what's indian contribution in it??? Let me tell you... india modified its guidance software.. And has been lobbying its export (possible owing to its 290km range- owing to which russia itself can't transfer a longer ranged "Brahmos" to india) ... India has been offering it to countries like Vietnam (which also buy Pak weapons) but failed when the viets went straight to Russia to buy yakhonts instead of brahmos.


P.S; Those CGI's look nice ... wake me up when you actually produce and induct them.

http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2010-08-06/news/27599544_1_alhs-cag-advanced-light-helicopter


@Water Car Engineer So much R&D !

Here is another assembled tank (Arjun) hat happened to the 118-124 tanks (designed by Germany and imported from several nations... After "decades of R&D ... ....Which involved getting ToT from several countries ! 60% is still imported - which doesn mean that 40% is indian ... It actually means tht after decades of R&D 40% is thankfully produced in india - thanks to ToT from other countries) is still a flawed design,obsolete imported gun,no quality "indigenous" ammo etc etc .lol:

India Grounds Most of Original Arjun Tanks

Meanwhile you brag about Arjun mk II... Which again is on the drawing board !

No wonder indian military is getting russian T-90s! Which were also to be assembled in India but sadly still being bought off th shelf from Russians!

Meanwhile the much touted AJT has again been killed by indian airforce for indian assembled BAE Hawks (which again have started crashing)..!

 

[Water Car Engineer]

@DESERT FIGHTER

So it looks like a MB ... It's design was "consulted" by MB... All of its systems are imported from 2 dozen companies but it's indian and 100% indigenous?

Yup, it can do whatever it wants with it's own design, and is making an dedicated gunship and LUH off of the design experience of the dhruv. Again, come back to me when you find out the % of your platforms. Get ready for the amount you actually import for your platform.

If it wasnt for India, you wouldnt have most of your bookmarked sources.

nothing compared to what you have... From coffin scam,arty gun scam,getting caught with russian hookers,wide swapping,the Arjun scam,dud ammo and missile contract scam,Tatra truck scam etc etc ,.

I already explained the level of transparency that exists in India. You're going to tell me there isnt any scams in your establishments? Dude get real, your generals took over your whole country several times, even executed PMs. That's the level power and influence they have.

Missile seekers ? Yes we have no missiles poor us..... you have 1 odd CM .. A modified Yakhont from Russia... what's indian contribution in it??? Let me tell you... india modified its guidance software.. And has been lobbying its export (possible owing to its 290km range- owing to which russia itself can't transfer a longer ranged "Brahmos" to india) ... India has been offering it to countries like Vietnam (which also buy Pak weapons) but failed when the viets went straight to Russia to buy yakhonts instead of brahmos.

Pretty much every single part is made in India, and there's a whole ecosystem purely for Brahmos. And competition for it's seeker, is won by data patterns, which will produce the x band terminal guidance seeker.

So much R&D !

That's coming from mostly import of RAW material.

Can you comment on the value of components of the Dhruv which are imported?
There are a lot of misconceptions regarding indigenisation and imports. There is tremendous value addition that is being done in the Dhruv programme. Structures for the Dhruv are made from composites. Now while the raw material comes from abroad, everything else, from tailoring of the raw material when it comes to design of a component, development of a component, qualification and testing of the component and finally manufacturing of the component, is all done entirely in India. The value addition to the basic raw materials we are getting is anywhere between 45 to 65 per cent. If you look at the percentage of the number of components that are made in this country then 85 to 90 per cent of the Dhruv is made in India.


FORCE - A Complete News Magazine on National Security - Defence Magazine

should I come from US or Pak? Would you accept other sources? In short yes ... The claims of "indigenous" systems is debunker by your own (indian) sources.

No one in US, Pak, etc. will have that information. If your establishment puts out similar sources, dont be surprise how much is imported.

If India didnt put out the info, you would be clueless, just like you're clueless of how much of your platform is imported.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

@DESERT FIGHTER



Yup, it can do whatever it wants with it's own design, and is making an dedicated gunship and LUH off of the design experience of the dhruv.

With German design and 90% import I bet you did!

Again, come back to me when you find out the % of your platforms. Get ready for the amount you actually import for your platform.

If it wasnt for India, you wouldnt have most of your bookmarked sources.

we already know about Pak weapons... Go check related threads.. As for bookmarks nah.. I dont waste my hard disk for that! why do that when you can google!

I already explained the level of transparency that exists in India. You're going to tell me there isnt any scams in your establishments? Dude get real, your generals took over your whole country several times. That's the level power and influence they have.

corruption is everywhere in every military .. Everywhere in the world but the % isn't... Unlike your R&D duds n scams that's not the case in Pak..

Pretty much every single part is made in India, and there's a whole ecosystem purely for Brahmos. And competition for it's seeker, is won by data patterns, which will produce the x band terminal guidance seeker.

im impressed .. Now you produce Brahmos aka Yalhont junior under ToT..

That's coming from the import of RAW material.

Can you comment on the value of components of the Dhruv which are imported?
There are a lot of misconceptions regarding indigenisation and imports. There is tremendous value addition that is being done in the Dhruv programme. Structures for the Dhruv are made from composites. Now while the raw material comes from abroad, everything else, from tailoring of the raw material when it comes to design of a component, development of a component, qualification and testing of the component and finally manufacturing of the component, is all done entirely in India. The value addition to the basic raw materials we are getting is anywhere between 45 to 65 per cent. If you look at the percentage of the number of components that are made in this country then 85 to 90 per cent of the Dhruv is made in India.


FORCE - A Complete News Magazine on National Security - Defence Magazine

what is that raw material ? Kryptonite?

Here is an old chart showing some of those imported "raw materials".. Those companies providing "raw material" also list these products in their websites;

Just like after decades of R&D 60+ % of failed arjun (again based in german design) "raw material" is imported and other 40% "raw material" now produced under ToT.. Or should I say "was"...

No in US, Pak, etc. will have that information. If your establishment puts out similar sources, not be surprise how much is imported.

If India didnt put out the info, you would be clueless, just like your clueless of how of your platform is imported.

yes other countries like US,Pak don't have money or R&D like india..