Final nod soon for Navy’s advanced stealth frigate

[anant_s]

Ekdum sahi Bhaijaan..

on topic: can we have some more info on the boat pl.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Do I really have to mouth feed you ??
Indian shipyards import 80% of components | Business Line

Did you read the news item? It pertains to a reply by the MoST (ie Minister of Surface Transport) and it talks about shipyards that are building Merchant ships. It even refers to the Director General Shipping; who is the nodal agency. However the report does not clarify what that 80% represents? 80% by weight, volume or value? All of them represent different things .

Now to tell you: in Civilian Ship-building, huge amounts of equipment are built by some International Mfg cos.
E.G. Cargo Handling Eqpt by Navire McGregor, Nav Radars by KruppAtlas or Raytheon or Furuno, SatComms by say JRC or Furuno, Fire-Fighting Installations by Thune-Eureka, Large Main Diesel Engines by MAN-B&W or Sulzer-Wartsila and so on. So if Merchant Ships are being built in Finland, South Korea, China, Japan, Scotland, USA, India, or even in Somalia; then equipment will be sourced from these manufacturers on a COTS basis. It is far simpler and economic to so.
Therefore, Diesel Engines built by Kirloskar or Cummins in India find their way to ships being built in Norway or China as prime-movers for ship gen-sets. Large capacity Air Compressors made by Kirloskar Pneumatic in India are installed in ships built else where. Large Capacity HVAC plants built by Voltas and Blue-Star in India are installed in some of the world's largest Cruise Ships including the RMS Queen Mary.
Ship-building, especially Civilian ship-building depends entirely on international sourcing. For instance, check how many ships built in China have locally built Gyro-Compasses? They are of western origin;either from Anschutz or Sperry-Brown. And the Gyro-Compass is the very heart of the Navigational Eqpt on a ship.

In case of Warships; sometimes a greater degree of customisation is sought and achieved (wrt to Civilian/Merchant Ships). If the amount of customisation is large enough, then Localisation is the next step and is justified in it creation. Justified in terms of both cost-effectiveness and/or security/confidentiality. Indian built warships now have greater levels of indigenisaton compared to Indian built Merchant Ships. And understandably so; as I've explained above.

 

[RISING SUN]

i
Bro,
I never claimed that all these products are indigenous. My point was showing them that we do have the capability to make them at home.

Yes,I am equally worried as you for the lack of indigenous content in the armed forces as you. We do have the capability and capacity but still we import.


But I can never ever agree with you calling the junkyards and other such names. They have chosen to work for their own country instead of migrating to some foreign lands. These guys earn just as much a decent call centre employ and has no glamour in their professional life. Definitly , I would have gone and worked for some other country if I was in their position

Recently ,I got involved big time in Student Satellite program and then only I realized the amount of hardwork put on each of these project. Now I have nothing short of respect for these men.

And there you nailed it buddy. I believe that it was organized by our space science related agencies , not DRDO or our money eating shipyards(actually angry with MDL only.)

 

[acetophenol]

And there you nailed it buddy. I believe that it was organized by our space science related agencies , not DRDO or our money eating shipyards(actually angry with MDL only.)

bro,
My project was organized by us students ourselves and supported by ISRO ( only whenever we manage to convince them).

And related to our DRDO or other govt sector organizations,
come one man you know how things work with govt organizations in our country! They simply lack the glamour and salary that other nations are ready to offer.Still they stick with India only.

 

[Rocky25]

C'mon man give India some credit beside some basic welding and painting , at least the ship look stealthy to me, I hope the artistic sketch is done by Indians.

Not bad, India is learning from what China did to its sole Aircraft Carrier!

Bro Indian shipyars import 80% of their equipment. From engines to almost all radars and missiles. Indian contribution is bare minimum. Accept it.

Chill Bro, It is much much much better than importing the ship from other countries like the INS Vikramaditya! Brahmos and Barak 8 are co-developed.... Engines and Radars are complex technologies... We should try to get ToT or develop a new ones with joint development.... India is certainly improving but the pace is worrisome for sure!

 

[Rocky25]

Mate no offense but these PSUs & DRDO are just junk yard nothing less. So poorly equipped & trained(if they are trained , they do it just for promotions nothing less nothing more. I just know these things somehow.)

Buddy I accept on the underlined part.... but not on the bold part.... My friend work in HAL... he used to go to office at 6AM and return at 3PM sharp! I asked whether any of the engineers stay back after the regular work hours.. He answered 'NO'... My friends friend was furious as why the software engineers alone get salaries that they cannot imagine to get!

But me being in Software R&D team... was seeing my colleagues working 18 hours on their own interest and get patents one after the other! They were rewarded if their tech is useful in getting a contract.... I have seen colleagues getting their cut as 6 Lakhs for their patent was very useful in getting more customers!

you must have know, The Email was invented by an Indian at the age of just 14, He had similar proposals

He tried to make this work in Indian CSIR.... But as usual he was ejected out!

Shiva Ayyadurai - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Gessler]

P-17A will collectively be the best frigate in the world.

They say it will be in the 6700-ton category, but they said Shivalik will be in the 4500-ton category
when it was being built and it turns out to be 6200 tons when completed.

They also seemed to be downplaying the tonnage of the P-15A DDGs also. The old P-15 Delhi was
already 6900 tons, now they're saying the P-15A is only 100 tons more? I find that hard to believe.

P-17A FFG may turn out to be 7000-7500 tons, challenging PLAN's Type-052C DDGs in terms of
tonnage, if it is equipped with BrahMos-II Mach 7 cruise missiles when completed, it will be one ship
to watch out for.

I wonder what combat management system it uses, the Shivalik used the CMS-17.

Complete the Kolkatas first，which have been in waters for god knows how many years。

P-17A are descendent of P-17 Shivalik, all 3 of which were inducted and operational in IN.

 

[Manindra]

After the nod the stocks of Isreali defence firms will shoot up, because of the $10 bill they will be supplying $9 bill of equipment. All missiles, sonars, electronics will be imported and so will be the steel. Value addition from India will come in form of basic welding and putting foreign kits together.

It has local sonar, EW suite, battle management system, cruise missiles, surface to air missiles , warship grade steel & probabaly AESA radar.

 

[Manindra]

Complete the Kolkatas first，which have been in waters for god knows how many years。

Kolkata class destroyers are almost complete but late due to delay in development of Barak 8 SAM.

 

[Manindra]

P-17A will collectively be the best frigate in the world.

They say it will be in the 6700-ton category, but they said Shivalik will be in the 4500-ton category
when it was being built and it turns out to be 6200 tons when completed.

They also seemed to be downplaying the tonnage of the P-15A DDGs also. The old P-15 Delhi was
already 6900 tons, now they're saying the P-15A is only 100 tons more? I find that hard to believe.

P-17A FFG may turn out to be 7000-7500 tons, challenging PLAN's Type-052C DDGs in terms of
tonnage, if it is equipped with BrahMos-II Mach 7 cruise missiles when completed, it will be one ship
to watch out for.

I wonder what combat management system it uses, the Shivalik used the CMS-17.

You can't compare power punch of warship with their tonnage. Russian Gorshkov class frigate have same power punch as Shivalik class frigate. You should compare that their armament, radar, sonar, battle management system etc.

Kolkata class destroyers holds many fold more power punch despite slicely more weighted then Delhi class destroyers because it has reenforced fiber & carbon composites to reduce weight & RCS. If it would make on basis of Delhi class destroyers then it will cross 8000 ton.

 

[Gessler]

You can't compare power punch of warship with their tonnage. Russian Gorshkov class frigate have same power punch as Shivalik class frigate. You should compare that their armament, radar, sonar, battle management system etc.

Kolkata class destroyers holds many fold more power punch despite slicely more weighted then Delhi class destroyers because it has reenforced fiber & carbon composites to reduce weight & RCS. If it would make on basis of Delhi class destroyers then it will cross 8000 ton.

I'm not saying P-17A FFG will be the best FFG in the world because it's got the biggest tonnage, I am saying it wrt to the capability of the systems involved: -

What other frigate has a better radar than the MF-STAR AESA?

What other frigate has a better ASCM than BrahMos (or better still BrahMos-II)?

What other frigate has a better SAM than Barak-2?

About the tonnage issue, there are a lot more factors than just type of materials used in construction. Consider this: -

The Type-45 Daring-class DDG of the British Royal Navy has a stealthy superstructure, employs probably some of the best warship-construction methods in the world, can carry 8 Harpoon CMs and upto 48 Aster-15/30 SAMs, and comes with close-in defence systems like Phalanx, 30mm guns etc.

It's all-up displacement is said to be about 8,000 tons.

Now look at the P-15A Kolkata-class DDG of the Indian Navy - it carries 16 BrahMos CMs, upto 48 Barak-2 SAMs, and 4 30mm guns, one big 100mm gun and oh yeah, it's construction methods are not as advanced as the Daring's.

So how come it weighs in 1,000 tons less?

It definitely ought to displace as much as, if not more than, the Daring.

 

[Gessler]

 

[Manindra]

I'm not saying P-17A FFG will be the best FFG in the world because it's got the biggest tonnage, I am saying it wrt to the capability of the systems involved: -

What other frigate has a better radar than the MF-STAR AESA?

What other frigate has a better ASCM than BrahMos (or better still BrahMos-II)?

What other frigate has a better SAM than Barak-2?

About the tonnage issue, there are a lot more factors than just type of materials used in construction. Consider this: -

The Type-45 Daring-class DDG of the British Royal Navy has a stealthy superstructure, employs probably some of the best warship-construction methods in the world, can carry 8 Harpoon CMs and upto 48 Aster-15/30 SAMs, and comes with close-in defence systems like Phalanx, 30mm guns etc.

It's all-up displacement is said to be about 8,000 tons.

Now look at the P-15A Kolkata-class DDG of the Indian Navy - it carries 16 BrahMos CMs, upto 48 Barak-2 SAMs, and 4 30mm guns, one big 100mm gun and oh yeah, it's construction methods are not as advanced as the Daring's.

So how come it weighs in 1,000 tons less?

It definitely ought to displace as much as, if not more than, the Daring.

You can count US frigate for comparison for Radar , anti ship capability, SAM and also the main one battle management system.

You make a insult to British warship building industry to compare there class apart Type 45 destroyers with Kolkata class destroyers.

We are new in this field compare to UK & US but our strategy is that we make top tier naval vessels & I am impressed with Kamorta class corvette.

Aster SAM is class apart compare to Barak-2 & you think Harpoon is a simple missile compare to Brahmos.

 

[Gessler]

You can count US frigate for comparison for Radar , anti ship capability, SAM and also the main one battle management system.

Okay...tell me son, what US frigate should I compare P-17/P-17A with?

You make a insult to British warship building industry to compare there class apart Type 45 destroyers with Kolkata class destroyers.

As I expected, your argument lacks substance. I did not say P-15A is constructed with superior techniques to what was used in Daring. Yeah, sure, our shipyards are junk compared to the Brit ones, but where is your point?

You did not explain how Type-45 weighs in more than P-15A's supposed displacement despite carrying smaller number of missiles and using more advanced construction methods??

Answer me, boy.

Aster SAM is class apart compare to Barak-2

This shows that you don't know a thing about Barak-2. By chance, are you confusing Barak-2 with the Barak-1 close-in SAM?

you think Harpoon is a simple missile compare to Brahmos.

Nonsense and more nonsense. Are you here to put up a constructive discussion or just spew up BS?

I never compared Harpoon with PJ-10. But you can do it if you like - but let me tell you PJ-10 surpasses Harpoon in respect to speed, range and hitting power. Harpoon on the other hand is slower but can stay hidden from radar horizon for a longer period of time, provided the ship's crew press all the right buttons.

My point however was different, it was wrt to the weight - I said that Daring has provision to carry 8 Harpoons, while Kolkata can carry 16 BrahMos PJ-10s. 16 is equal to 2 x 8...twice as many CMs as Daring.

And point #2 - a single Harpoon hardly weighs 700kg I think (correct me if I'm wrong), so 8 means a total of around 5,500kgs.

A single BrahMos weighs 3,000kgs, so 16 such missiles means 48,000kgs.

So who is carrying a greater weapon load?

 

[Manindra]

Okay...tell me son, what US frigate should I compare P-17/P-17A with?

Here is Spanish Frigate

Álvaro de Bazán-class frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As I expected, your argument lacks substance. I did not say P-15A is constructed with superior techniques to what was used in Daring. Yeah, sure, our shipyards are junk compared to the Brit ones, but where is your point?

You did not explain how Type-45 weighs in more than P-15A's supposed displacement despite carrying smaller number of missiles and using more advanced construction methods??

Answer me, boy.

You didn't count how many Radar, sensor type 45 posses & Type 45 is 10 metre short compare to Kolkata but its beam is 21.2 metre & draught is 7.4 metre compare to Kolkata's 17.4 m & 6.5 m. Then use simple calculation that which ship posses big area.
Type 45 has 190 crew & other hand kolkata would be posses 250 crew then simply think how many automation done in Type 45 for reducing crew size.

This shows that you don't know a thing about Barak-2. By chance, are you confusing Barak-2 with the Barak-1 close-in SAM?

Its Barak-8 not Barak-2 & Kolkata would posses both.

Nonsense and more nonsense. Are you here to put up a constructive discussion or just spew up BS?

I never compared Harpoon with PJ-10. But you can do it if you like - but let me tell you PJ-10 surpasses Harpoon in respect to speed, range and hitting power. Harpoon on the other hand is slower but can stay hidden from radar horizon for a longer period of time, provided the ship's crew press all the right buttons

.

I didn't have problem if a Cruise or anti ship missile is slow but more accurate & destroy their target without detection & have less weight & more range.

My point however was different, it was wrt to the weight - I said that Daring has provision to carry 8 Harpoons, while Kolkata can carry 16 BrahMos PJ-10s. 16 is equal to 2 x 8...twice as many CMs as Daring.

And point #2 - a single Harpoon hardly weighs 700kg I think (correct me if I'm wrong), so 8 means a total of around 5,500kgs.

A single BrahMos weighs 3,000kgs, so 16 such missiles means 48,000kgs.

So who is carrying a greater weapon load?

I clear your doubts about weght in above & don't be rude if someone counter your claim. This is a discussion forum & due to healthy discussion we can improve our knowledge not ego.