Fighting hopelessness: Panama Case, JIT and the confusions

[Arsalan]

With the Panama case verdict, a vast majority of our population are in sense of hopelessness and everywhere you go you see people that are abusing and cursing the supreme court and the system as a whole. No one believe that FBR or FIA or State Bank or the other institutions that are to be part of JIT will deliver something that a strong supreme court failed to do. What they fail to understand is that supreme court could not have penalized the guilty as it was NOT a criminal trial. There was nothing much else the panel could do. This is because of lack of awareness but mostly because people have been deliberately misguided, AGAIN. What else where you think those celebration were about when the panel of supreme court have clearly stated that PM and his family failed to provide evidence and justification of those properties and what they have said is doubtful and needs to be investigated further. Two of the five members even went to the extent to state that it is obvious that they family is guilty and the PM is no longer suitable to hold the office and must be disqualified. There is not a single judge that have confirmed that Nawaz Sharif and his family are innocent and all their properties are made by legal means and the case should be dismissed! NO A SINGLE ONE have stated this. The best thing for the government in this verdict is ambiguity in words in some places but still a clear call of further investigation of sitting prime minister and his family. The worst thing is the disqualification decision by two judges including the head of the panel. (and in fact, these are the only two who have given a decision, the other three have just asked for further probe declaring prime minister neither guilty nor innocent)

The only defense the NS and Co. presented, the Qatri Letter have been thrown in the bin by all five. In light of the other evidence presented or even the lack of it;

2 judges have said that it is over and NS have to be disqualified.
3 have said that they are not sure and want the matters to be investigated further.

Then why the celebration if not to simply misguide the nation. One minister and a key member of PMLN went on to state that the verdict proves that PM is both sadiq and ameen. I am yet to find a single sentence in 500 plus page decision stating that. Sir, the prime minister is not eligible to hold the office as per two judges and the remaining three have doubts on what have been said in the court and want further investigation. Please do not misguide us.

Now that the cat is out of the bag, the ruling elite have remembered that the Qatri letter was never there prime evidence and that there were documents and money trail (that they have promised dozens of time now, in parliament and in supreme court but still fail to produce) as well that the lawyers fail to present. Have you listened to what NS lawyer said yesterday? I think it was enough to prove what actually is happening, still they have made the nation believe that supreme court have betrayed them and that corruption is here to stay forever. The family can sense it but they won’t let you. They are powerful and will go all out but we should not be helping them in accomplishing that. Please do not let the efforts of this one year go down the drain by just giving it up right now. We know what have happened, we should believe in it. Rather than spreading awareness across we our self are getting restless and hopeless, THAT SHOULD NOT HAPPEN, PLEASE. I will even go all out and say that do it as a personal favor to me while in fact, it is a favor to OUR country. Frankly speaking, what else have we done to turn anything for good except sitting on this online forum and spreading the word across? It will be sad and shameful if we even stop contributing that. We are only a few educated members here on the forum with access to internet, this is a privilege and we of all should have better understanding. Think about the millions who need to be made aware of the reality, by us! Do this as a duty to motherland as the system as it exists today may not last for long. This have to end and we will be honored to be the ones to do that.

I am not saying that JIT is going to work perfectly, not even very confident, but I for one am ALWAYS against speculating things and specially against forming and giving judgements on those speculations. Even when case proceedings were underway I was always asking all the members to pray and hope for the best but at the same time, kept of telling that do not get there hopes too high. That was NOT the time to do guess work. THIS is not the time either. The JIT names will give us some 10-20% idea. Rest we will have another 15-20% when they present their first report. Till then, we should hold our horses and NOT LOSE hope. You have to believe me when I say that this is exactly what the guilty party will want. If they can deprive you of hope for justice, they take out most of your energy to fight for it and almost win the case before it even starts. This is the first, the most important and a time proven formula to enslave people, to make them believe that nothing can be done now. When we got HOPE we were able to defeat the BRITISH and get independence. What else do you think Allama Iqbal contributed but spreading the awareness? May be even Jinnah? A leader that the nation believed in and through him, believed in what seemed impossible. And what drive Jinnah? To me, it was the HOPE and FAITH of a nation that believed in him to deliver. I am not comparing anyone here with Quadi-e-Azam, no one can be, may be NEVER but just stating a fact. Pick up any revolution and you will find the same thing, pick up and oppression and you will read the same happening? The first thing an oppressor does is to kill hope, it is easy picking after that. Do not let that happen.Do not let them force you to choose the best from the worst and be happy and contend with it. This is our country and we want the best of the best of it.

What should be happening right now is nation full of confidence that they are going to stand up to corruption and will root it out. Acceptance of corrupting, while cheering it or crying about it is equally bad in my eyes. We do not want to join that second category. Have faith in yourself, in Allah and even in these institutions and your faith, faith and hope of 200 million population can and will make EVERYONE work properly. Faith is a power and we all know it. What else make you believe in miracles? If the JIT knows that the nation is not expecting anything from them to begin with, they won’t go out on a limb to prove them wrong, the easy job for them will be what is expected from them. Don’t give the corrupt the easy way out, do not pretend or act as if we don't care. This is OUR COUNTRY, WE CARE!! It is our children who will live here, how can we not care?

I have already asked what alternative judgement were any of you expecting or what it should have been? There is no practically possible alternative. We were not thinking of a direct disqualification and a suspension would have been of absolutely no practical value at all since the acting PM from this same team of corrupt would have only carried forward the same agenda. May this could have been even damaging as now if one of the three judges is convinced by JIT and the majority decision then becomes against PM, he won’t be able to cry foul play. He was sitting right there on top of the matters while it all happened. And INSHALLAH it will happen, INSHALLAH!!!

Arsalan Aslam

Your view:
@Horus @HRK @araz @fatman17 @waz @Slav Defence @Verve @Path-Finder @django @Zibago @The Sandman @PaklovesTurkiye @Khafee @TaimiKhan @Zaki @The Eagle

 

[truthseeker2010]

With the Panama case verdict, a vast majority of our population are in sense of hopelessness and everywhere you go you see people that are abusing and cursing the supreme court and the system as a whole. No one believe that FBR or FIA or State Bank or the other institutions that are to be part of JIT will deliver something that a strong supreme court failed to do. What they fail to understand is that supreme court could not have penalized the guilty as it was NOT a criminal trial. There was nothing much else the panel could do. This is because of lack of awareness but mostly because people have been deliberately misguided, AGAIN. What else where you think those celebration were about when the panel of supreme court have clearly stated that PM and his family failed to provide evidence and justification of those properties and what they have said is doubtful and needs to be investigated further. Two of the five members even went to the extent to state that it is obvious that they family is guilty and the PM is no longer suitable to hold the office and must be disqualified. There is not a single judge that have confirmed that Nawaz Sharif and his family are innocent and all their properties are made by legal means and the case should be dismissed! NO A SINGLE ONE have stated this. The best thing for the government in this verdict is ambiguity in words in some places but still a clear call of further investigation of sitting prime minister and his family. The worst thing is the disqualification decision by two judges including the head of the panel. (and in fact, these are the only two who have given a decision, the other three have just asked for further probe declaring prime minister neither guilty nor innocent)

The only defense the NS and Co. presented, the Qatri Letter have been thrown in the bin by all five. In light of the other evidence presented or even the lack of it;

2 judges have said that it is over and NS have to be disqualified.
3 have said that they are not sure and want the matters to be investigated further.

Then why the celebration if not to simply misguide the nation. One minister and a key member of PMLN went on to state that the verdict proves that PM is both sadiq and ameen. I am yet to find a single sentence in 500 plus page decision stating that. Sir, the prime minister is not eligible to hold the office as per two judges and the remaining three have doubts on what have been said in the court and want further investigation. Please do not misguide us.

Now that the cat is out of the bag, the ruling elite have remembered that the Qatri letter was never there prime evidence and that there were documents and money trail (that they have promised dozens of time now, in parliament and in supreme court but still fail to produce) as well that the lawyers fail to present. Have you listened to what NS lawyer said yesterday? I think it was enough to prove what actually is happening, still they have made the nation believe that supreme court have betrayed them and that corruption is here to stay forever. The family can sense it but they won’t let you. They are powerful and will go all out but we should not be helping them in accomplishing that. Please do not let the efforts of this one year go down the drain by just giving it up right now. We know what have happened, we should believe in it. Rather than spreading awareness across we our self are getting restless and hopeless, THAT SHOULD NOT HAPPEN, PLEASE. I will even go all out and say that do it as a personal favor to me while in fact, it is a favor to OUR country. Frankly speaking, what else have we done to turn anything for good except sitting on this online forum and spreading the word across? It will be sad and shameful if we even stop contributing that. We are only a few educated members here on the forum with access to internet, this is a privilege and we of all should have better understanding. Think about the millions who need to be made aware of the reality, by us! Do this as a duty to motherland as the system as it exists today may not last for long. This have to end and we will be honored to be the ones to do that.

I am not saying that JIT is going to work perfectly, not even very confident, but I for one am ALWAYS against speculating things and specially against forming and giving judgements on those speculations. Even when case proceedings were underway I was always asking all the members to pray and hope for the best but at the same time, kept of telling that do not get there hopes too high. That was NOT the time to do guess work. THIS is not the time either. The JIT names will give us some 10-20% idea. Rest we will have another 15-20% when they present their first report. Till then, we should hold our horses and NOT LOSE hope. You have to believe me when I say that this is exactly what the guilty party will want. If they can deprive you of hope for justice, they take out most of your energy to fight for it and almost win the case before it even starts. This is the first, the most important and a time proven formula to enslave people, to make them believe that nothing can be done now. When we got HOPE we were able to defeat the BRITISH and get independence. What else do you think Allama Iqbal contributed but spreading the awareness? May be even Jinnah? A leader that the nation believed in and through him, believed in what seemed impossible. And what drive Jinnah? To me, it was the HOPE and FAITH of a nation that believed in him to deliver. I am not comparing anyone here with Quadi-e-Azam, no one can be, may be NEVER but just stating a fact. Pick up any revolution and you will find the same thing, pick up and oppression and you will read the same happening? The first thing an oppressor does is to kill hope, it is easy picking after that. Do not let that happen.Do not let them force you to choose the best from the worst and be happy and contend with it. This is our country and we want the best of the best of it.

What should be happening right now is nation full of confidence that they are going to stand up to corruption and will root it out. Acceptance of corrupting, while cheering it or crying about it is equally bad in my eyes. We do not want to join that second category. Have faith in yourself, in Allah and even in these institutions and your faith, faith and hope of 200 million population can and will make EVERYONE work properly. Faith is a power and we all know it. What else make you believe in miracles? If the JIT knows that the nation is not expecting anything from them to begin with, they won’t go out on a limb to prove them wrong, the easy job for them will be what is expected from them. Don’t give the corrupt the easy way out, do not pretend or act as if we don't care. This is OUR COUNTRY, WE CARE!! It is our children who will live here, how can we not care?

I have already asked what alternative judgement were any of you expecting or what it should have been? There is no practically possible alternative. We were not thinking of a direct disqualification and a suspension would have been of absolutely no practical value at all since the acting PM from this same team of corrupt would have only carried forward the same agenda. May this could have been even damaging as now if one of the three judges is convinced by JIT and the majority decision then becomes against PM, he won’t be able to cry foul play. He was sitting right there on top of the matters while it all happened. And INSHALLAH it will happen, INSHALLAH!!!

Arsalan Aslam

Please give me instances where SC gave clear verdict against powerful elite for corruption or any other misdoing? The court has always given decision in grey areas..... Had it not been for military courts, even the terrorist had gone free.......

 

[Lars]

Oh man, I haven't lost hope. There isn't much the JIT can do to rescue Sharif's. They are doomed if don't give anything, doomed if they bring something new, doomed if they stick to their old story. SC has called Nawaz out on his Bullshit.

 

[Arsalan]

Please give me instances where SC gave clear verdict against powerful elite for corruption or any other misdoing? The court has always given decision in grey areas..... Had it not been for military courts, even the terrorist had gone free.......

So what is our second option?
Say that this is how this country always have been so let us just keep it that way and simply look the other way while we are looted and sacked by the ruling elite?I dont think so. Let us hope that things are about to change as that will be the first step to stand up for that change.

 

[The Sandman]

With the Panama case verdict, a vast majority of our population are in sense of hopelessness and everywhere you go you see people that are abusing and cursing the supreme court and the system as a whole. No one believe that FBR or FIA or State Bank or the other institutions that are to be part of JIT will deliver something that a strong supreme court failed to do. What they fail to understand is that supreme court could not have penalized the guilty as it was NOT a criminal trial. There was nothing much else the panel could do. This is because of lack of awareness but mostly because people have been deliberately misguided, AGAIN. What else where you think those celebration were about when the panel of supreme court have clearly stated that PM and his family failed to provide evidence and justification of those properties and what they have said is doubtful and needs to be investigated further. Two of the five members even went to the extent to state that it is obvious that they family is guilty and the PM is no longer suitable to hold the office and must be disqualified. There is not a single judge that have confirmed that Nawaz Sharif and his family are innocent and all their properties are made by legal means and the case should be dismissed! NO A SINGLE ONE have stated this. The best thing for the government in this verdict is ambiguity in words in some places but still a clear call of further investigation of sitting prime minister and his family. The worst thing is the disqualification decision by two judges including the head of the panel. (and in fact, these are the only two who have given a decision, the other three have just asked for further probe declaring prime minister neither guilty nor innocent)

The only defense the NS and Co. presented, the Qatri Letter have been thrown in the bin by all five. In light of the other evidence presented or even the lack of it;

2 judges have said that it is over and NS have to be disqualified.
3 have said that they are not sure and want the matters to be investigated further.

Then why the celebration if not to simply misguide the nation. One minister and a key member of PMLN went on to state that the verdict proves that PM is both sadiq and ameen. I am yet to find a single sentence in 500 plus page decision stating that. Sir, the prime minister is not eligible to hold the office as per two judges and the remaining three have doubts on what have been said in the court and want further investigation. Please do not misguide us.

Now that the cat is out of the bag, the ruling elite have remembered that the Qatri letter was never there prime evidence and that there were documents and money trail (that they have promised dozens of time now, in parliament and in supreme court but still fail to produce) as well that the lawyers fail to present. Have you listened to what NS lawyer said yesterday? I think it was enough to prove what actually is happening, still they have made the nation believe that supreme court have betrayed them and that corruption is here to stay forever. The family can sense it but they won’t let you. They are powerful and will go all out but we should not be helping them in accomplishing that. Please do not let the efforts of this one year go down the drain by just giving it up right now. We know what have happened, we should believe in it. Rather than spreading awareness across we our self are getting restless and hopeless, THAT SHOULD NOT HAPPEN, PLEASE. I will even go all out and say that do it as a personal favor to me while in fact, it is a favor to OUR country. Frankly speaking, what else have we done to turn anything for good except sitting on this online forum and spreading the word across? It will be sad and shameful if we even stop contributing that. We are only a few educated members here on the forum with access to internet, this is a privilege and we of all should have better understanding. Think about the millions who need to be made aware of the reality, by us! Do this as a duty to motherland as the system as it exists today may not last for long. This have to end and we will be honored to be the ones to do that.

I am not saying that JIT is going to work perfectly, not even very confident, but I for one am ALWAYS against speculating things and specially against forming and giving judgements on those speculations. Even when case proceedings were underway I was always asking all the members to pray and hope for the best but at the same time, kept of telling that do not get there hopes too high. That was NOT the time to do guess work. THIS is not the time either. The JIT names will give us some 10-20% idea. Rest we will have another 15-20% when they present their first report. Till then, we should hold our horses and NOT LOSE hope. You have to believe me when I say that this is exactly what the guilty party will want. If they can deprive you of hope for justice, they take out most of your energy to fight for it and almost win the case before it even starts. This is the first, the most important and a time proven formula to enslave people, to make them believe that nothing can be done now. When we got HOPE we were able to defeat the BRITISH and get independence. What else do you think Allama Iqbal contributed but spreading the awareness? May be even Jinnah? A leader that the nation believed in and through him, believed in what seemed impossible. And what drive Jinnah? To me, it was the HOPE and FAITH of a nation that believed in him to deliver. I am not comparing anyone here with Quadi-e-Azam, no one can be, may be NEVER but just stating a fact. Pick up any revolution and you will find the same thing, pick up and oppression and you will read the same happening? The first thing an oppressor does is to kill hope, it is easy picking after that. Do not let that happen.Do not let them force you to choose the best from the worst and be happy and contend with it. This is our country and we want the best of the best of it.

What should be happening right now is nation full of confidence that they are going to stand up to corruption and will root it out. Acceptance of corrupting, while cheering it or crying about it is equally bad in my eyes. We do not want to join that second category. Have faith in yourself, in Allah and even in these institutions and your faith, faith and hope of 200 million population can and will make EVERYONE work properly. Faith is a power and we all know it. What else make you believe in miracles? If the JIT knows that the nation is not expecting anything from them to begin with, they won’t go out on a limb to prove them wrong, the easy job for them will be what is expected from them. Don’t give the corrupt the easy way out, do not pretend or act as if we don't care. This is OUR COUNTRY, WE CARE!! It is our children who will live here, how can we not care?

I have already asked what alternative judgement were any of you expecting or what it should have been? There is no practically possible alternative. We were not thinking of a direct disqualification and a suspension would have been of absolutely no practical value at all since the acting PM from this same team of corrupt would have only carried forward the same agenda. May this could have been even damaging as now if one of the three judges is convinced by JIT and the majority decision then becomes against PM, he won’t be able to cry foul play. He was sitting right there on top of the matters while it all happened. And INSHALLAH it will happen, INSHALLAH!!!

Arsalan Aslam

Your view:
@Horus @HRK @araz @fatman17 @waz @Slav Defence @Verve @Path-Finder @django @Zibago @The Sandman @PaklovesTurkiye @Khafee @TaimiKhan @Zaki @The Eagle

Great post Arsalan.

 

[ghazi52]

https://www.facebook.com/

 

[truthseeker2010]

So what is our second option?
Say that this is how this country always have been so let us just keep it that way and simply look the other way while we are looted and sacked by the ruling elite?I dont think so. Let us hope that things are about to change as that will be the first step to stand up for that change.

It will always be business as usual, since Pak elite is part of global establishment, and they are more powerful than any institution, all the institution are looking after their own interests, no one wants to break status co, and for people they have accepted the feudal way of life..............

 

[Realistic Change]

So what is our second option?
Say that this is how this country always have been so let us just keep it that way and simply look the other way while we are looted and sacked by the ruling elite?I dont think so. Let us hope that things are about to change as that will be the first step to stand up for that change.

I agree with you Arsalan - there is hope and hopelessness both sentiments are borne by people wanting change. Your posts are always insightful and gives me optimism for which I thank you once again! Thanks bro!!!

The only content person in our current system will be either direct or indirect beneficiary of current system.

Different humans react differently - if you have seen zillion failures; you might be ready for different result on zillion and one'th time others may have reached that point where from their heart they want change but in their minds they know if it happened zillion times chances of change are 0:Zillion.

This possibility of change that we all are talking about today is largely because of restless campaign by PTI in last few years - if we eliminate IK chapter since 2012 then we are left with same traditional politics - which means no chance of accountability and always being above the law till bigger goon comes and defeats the other.

To bring positive change in a system where institutions were made to decay in a systematic and very deliberate manner - incremental improvements does not bear results - like incremental improvements in candles did not invent electricity - there has to be a jolt/shake to the system.

I believe PTI is far far from perfect now because of realism - it started off with idealism but when they were routed in elections they thought about it - either bring the change at grassroots level in education and health and wait to see the results (18-25 years) and then start participating in current election system or do compromise and find the right balance between electables and idealist leaders. The reality is Legharis, Makhdooms, Jatois, Khars, Bhuttos, Sharifs in their constituencies will win no matter which nationalist and pro Pakistani educated person is PTI's candidate.

Pakistans situation is quite unique and requires compromises to enter into the power corridors.

Pakistan had hope just before and in initial days of BB's first Govt., what happened then is another debate and since then so much has happened that many are confused and dejected and only route they are left with is hijrat - why because as my dad used to say that "my generation has failed your generation" they had seen breaking of our country up close etc etc.,

Now there is restlessness for change, but when you are in a social gathering and 99.99% of your circle says that nothing is possible without rishwat you know how deeply entrenched corruption is and more sadly how socially acceptable these law breaking practices are.

Rewind 10 years - and you'll see lesser than 99.99% percent accepting it as "right" and so on and so forth.

I believe our country cannot afford step by step change due to a lot of things happening in the region - we need major shakeup to dismantle cartels of corruption or else whatever baby steps we will take will be reversed by this group - change has to be high velocity to break all types of corruption inertia and right now it is defining moment for Pak - and it's in the hands of people sitting in SCP and not with any political party.

Suppose; this case gets decided exactly like zillion other cases before this one - what will you say then?

 

[Arsalan]

It will always be business as usual, since Pak elite is part of global establishment, and they are more powerful than any institution, all the institution are looking after their own interests, no one wants to break status co, and for people they have accepted the feudal way of life..............

Sir this is an opinion about what is happening, not about what should. Tell us what are our options and what should we do? call it a day reasoning that it is all part of an international conspiracy or at least try, no, at least hope that some day some good will come and struggle for it, doing whatever little we can!!!

 

[Vazir]

Sir this is an opinion about what is happening, not about what should. Tell us what are our options and what should we do? call it a day reasoning that it is all part of an international conspiracy or at least try, no, at least hope that some day some good will come and struggle for it, doing whatever little we can!!!

Our options are
A) wake up, look around, and vote smarter in 2018. Seriously, there was a -60% voter turnout in 2013. We will need to heavily improve on that.
B) protest if the water falls far from the apple. Anything unjust happening in JIT, and we need to come out on the streets. Without thinking "hey, protests solve nothing. They won't listen to us". They may not, but at protests you express where you stand and how you think.
C) become really aware of how the things are operating. We need to be able to know exactly what is happening in JIT investigations that they release publicly, who they appoint in the team, what is their service record, etc. Fine details. And we need the population to be aware about that as much as we can.

((I'll add more when I think of them))

 

[truthseeker2010]

Sir this is an opinion about what is happening, not about what should. Tell us what are our options and what should we do? call it a day reasoning that it is all part of an international conspiracy or at least try, no, at least hope that some day some good will come and struggle for it, doing whatever little we can!!!

This is the fact of the day, the Last hope is always Allah, lets hope He brings a person like RS(bear in mind i am not talking of martial law, or a COAS) a powerful person at a powerful position, it can be anyone who decide to call it a day..............

 

[Verve]

@Arsalan Thank you bro. We need this.

 

[Imad.Khan]

There have been countless JITs and commissions but nothing has ever happened and in my opinion the fate of this JIT report will not be different either. So yes i have lost hope for Pakistan and unfortunately i do not see a bright future.

The only way Pakistan will come out of this mess is by a bloody revolution where all the corrupt people, from top to bottom are dragged on to the streets and hanged in every chowk.

 

[Vazir]

There have been countless JITs and commissions but nothing has ever happened and in my opinion the fate of this JIT report will not be different either. So yes i have lost hope for Pakistan and unfortunately i do not see a bright future.

The only way Pakistan will come out of this mess is by a bloody revolution where all the corrupt people, from top to bottom are dragged on to the streets and hanged in every chowk.

Not gonna happen while the establishment and the courts are alongside the government. And therein lies the problem.

 

[Realistic Change]

I can share firsthand info that there is serious fear in PMLN camp re street agitation and their belief is that the current situation is ripe for agitation if it's main opponent plays its cards well hence PMLN is overblowing whatever they can for example Rs.10billion statement of IK to shift PTI's focus and put them on defensive - even when Kashif Abbasi clarified today that IK is not bluffing and he actually called the guy to seek his permission to make his name public but fearing the wrath of Sharifs the guy did not let him announce his name.

It's like a complete chess board now - political pressure is being mounted on PMLN and turn of events are such that PPP has no other choice other than to go for the kill - as they know that if they do not attack PMLN their space to politically manoeuvre will be shrunk to the point where they might be out of hiding nest (Sindh Govt), moral pressure is being put on SCP, nationalism pressure is being built on PA - I am sure many of you have contacts in all three (political parties, judiciary and army), ask any of them to know how is the situation. One wrong step can backfire - IK had been advised to measure his statements/response by AU, JT, SMQ and PK and not let the pressure get off. Hardly JT and SMQ agree on one point ever in CC meetings but in this one everyone agreed.

If PA can give support (even moral) to SCP for truthful decision then it will be start of a new book - otherwise it will be yet another chapter of the current book.

We all know - it's not easy to break the shackles of institutionalized corruption - especially when it's cloaked under the garb of psuedo jamhooriyat it needs a strong velocity push for it to become just system - be it western style democratic or Singapore/S Korean/Malaysian style authoritarian rule to lay the foundation and set the direction - I think that once its achieved we can start romanticizing again with western styled democracy!