FC-20 needs a partner!

[Myth_buster_1]

I dough West will offer us anything better then Mirage-2000-5 systems for FC-20 and at most they could come up with a 1st generation AESA radar. FC-20 is not going to be enough to hold on Technical and Numerical advantage of IAF 4.5 generation fleet which consists of Super Hornet and the MKI. I can give my estimate guess that FC-20 will not be capable enough to hold on one of the best fighters on its own and requires another platform to share the work load. It will be a night mare if PAF ends up with only FC-20s like 70 plus as their only 4.5 generation aircraft and still technically not par with MKI and SH. I would say.... 36 FC-20 and 36 Rafale should be the best choice! of course Pakistan can not make the decision of acquiring another new type of combat air craft at this stage but has to wait for the final result of IAF 126 MRCA contract. This should also give us access to new state of the art French defence market for our own FC-20 program..

 

[IceCold]

FC-20 is specifically tailored to meet the PAF requirements in the future and most probably we might not even have to look towards the west as far as an AESA radar is concerned because as suggested my various articles and also by senior members, Chinese are working to develop their own AESA radar which they would also require for their 5th generation fighter program. My only fear is the time line by which these jets will eventually enter into the PAF service(2014).
Rafale is an excellent platform and so is EF. Either one of them in the PAF service can really boost PAF capabilities and make into a robust force even if we are able to induct just 2 squadrons for starter. Together with the FC-20 and JF-17 can really change the dynamics of air warfare in SA however what remains to be seen is whether we really do have the money to buy another flatform alongside the induction of F-16s, JF-17, FC-20, AWACS and refulers.
Another angle could be that we drop the plan of inducting any more jet then what we already have planned meaning JF-17, F-16s and FC-20 and from there start working in a joint development for a 5th generation with China. India already has begun and though it wont be a reality till 2020 -25, still their work is on the way while we haven't even begun.

my 2 cents on the issue.

 

[Righteous_Fire]

The timeline envisioned by the PAF for in service 4-4.5 generation aircraft is dangerously passive and calm.

With Indian muscle flexing happening right now across the border, we have nothing to put forward against those MKIs.

In an event of sudden outbreak of war, does the PAF hope for 4-4.5 Generation aircraft from friendly countries to do active service for us?!!!

The seriousness of this matter demands much more importance, sadly, the PAF nor the politicians are concerned.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

FC-20 is specifically tailored to meet the PAF requirements in the future and most probably we might not even have to look towards the west as far as an AESA radar is concerned

FC-20 is merely a export product of J-10A and more appropriate to describe this is to say that PAF will customize this platform to meet its requirement. Honestly... I dough China could come up with FC-20 that will be as good as SH or MKI.... or else PAF will end up with like Chinese version of JF-17 Block 1 over much superior western version block 2 with RC-400 and french avionics that pakistan is currently negotiating. Their is clearly a big difference between Chinese and west.

because as suggested my various articles and also by senior members, Chinese are working to develop their own AESA radar which they would also require for their 5th generation fighter program. My only fear is the time line by which these jets will eventually enter into the PAF service(2014).

Honestly, the PAF personals that i have talked to in "real" life have shown be a really opposite side of the picture on defence.pk about PAK-CHINA defence cooperation.. First of all... the reason why we go for them is because they are "cheap" meaning we can afford. then China never offeres us their best of the best equipments to pakistan and even if the do they make you wait for 10+ years... do notice that only export versions of their equipments are offered to us.. I was really disheartened to hear this from our military officers.. and heck even the air defence officer from the army told me almost the samething...

we really do have the money to buy another flatform alongside the induction of F-16s, JF-17, FC-20, AWACS and refulers.

I may sound show off or what ever but according to PAF officer who is stationed in chaklala PAF will only leasethe refulers...
and in my opinion in order to acquire another 4.5 generation platform possible is to drop FC-20 fallow on orders and possible reduce the JF-17 numbers to just 200..

 

[muse]

I'm always amazed how jumpy some Pakistanis are with regard to IAF and Indian Khiali Palau - 4.5 gen, 5 gen 5 &1/3 gen. All of this plain rubbish - the aircraft are simply one aspect of much larger questions of organization, training, tactics, battle readiness which in itself is a universe, technical prowess and technical industrial capablity -- all one these days reads on our pages is curious combinations 45 FC20 35 Rafale - what The - WHY?? are these being handed out as khairaat somewhere?

I think the F16 is a great ship, it's just that it comes with "unkil" attached and as much as we may loath this fact, with F35 being supplied, bring many more F16 on the market - will Pakistan be positioned diplomatically to take advantage of this?

As for the Indian claims of X and z gen starships - really, really lets get a grip.

 

[MZUBAIR]

I dough West will offer us anything better then Mirage-2000-5 would offer for the FC-20 and at most they could come up with a 1st generation AESA radar. FC-20 is not going to be enough to hold on Technical and Numerical advantage of IAF 4.5 generation fleet which consists of Super Hornet and the MKI. I can give my estimate guess that FC-20 will not be capable enough to hold on one of the best fighters on its own and requires another platform to share the work load. It will be be a night mare if PAF ends up with only FC-20s like 70 plus as their only 4.5 generation aircraft and still technically not par with MKI and SH. I would say.... 36 FC-20 and 36 Rafale should be the best choice! of course Pakistan can not make the decision of acquiring another new type of combat air craft at this stage but has to wait for the final result of IAF 126 MRCA contract. This should also give us access to new state of the art French defence market for our own FC-20 program..

I dont know Y I feel that ur always against FC-20.

FC-20 or JF-17 is an innovative fighter.........and the technology will not end up wt u have seen in recent advancments in JF-17.


Current JF-17 is far batter then Indian Mig 21 Biason, Mirage, Mig 29, Mig 27 and Jaguar. The only aircraft in IAF which is superior then FC-20 is MKI

JF-17 have some capabilities to compete MKI but ofcourse it is lill lower because of engine and radar (MKI using PESA radar).


First 50 JF-17 will be given to Peshawar Air base where they will replace A5/Q5 or called Fantan 5....ground attack bomber.

Next 50 with advance western avoinics will be given to Mianwali air base which is known as training air base.


From 100th to 150th JF-17 would have batter western engine, Radar (AESA bater then PESA)...that type will be called JF-17 Block 2 and the production will be started in late 2010.

At the moment IAF havent decided for 120 Jets for MRCA, when they evaluate and finalize , believe me PAF will act quickly to counter that deal.

Dont underestimate estimate JF-17.

Future plans of IAF

HAL Tejas ......... production will start in 2010...at that time JF-17 will be more mature (Block 2)

MRCA......126 or may be extended to 189 (F-16 Falcon IN, JAS-39 Gripen NG, MiG-35, Dassault Rafale, F-18 E/F Super Hornet & the Eurofighter Typhoon) ...that would be a serious thought and I am sure PAF will procure western jets when IAF finalise, so far ........I dont see any confurm deal.

FGFA...It will come up in 2020.....enough time.

MCA....It will come up in 2020.....enough time.

___________________________________________________

Dont forget PAF already bought 36 J-10B on evaluation and might be more if they feel its worth.


I think at the moment PAF shld consider any western jet, J-10B and JF-17 to counter SU-30....forget abt MRCA,HAL- Tejas, FGFA and MCA deals ...they will not come up in IAF b4 2015.

 

[Righteous_Fire]

Honestly, the PAF personals that i have talked to in "real" life have shown be a really opposite side of the picture on defence.pk about PAK-CHINA defence cooperation.. First of all... the reason why we go for them is because they are "cheap" meaning we can afford. then China never offeres us their best of the best equipments to pakistan and even if the do they make you wait for 10+ years... do notice that only export versions of their equipments are offered to us.. I was really disheartened to hear this from our military officers.. and heck even the air defence officer from the army told me almost the samething...

Maybe, because there exists a genuine reason within the PLAF, that by handing out to us, their latest weapons, their secrets or level of current military achievements might be jeopardized. !!

I can say the same for "Unkil " West, do you think they share their latest with the Europeans?

There should be nothing emotional about it, it is just the protection of their own interests, and we should respect that.

I'm always amazed how jumpy some Pakistanis are with regard to IAF and Indian Khiali Palau - 4.5 gen, 5 gen 5 &1/3 gen. All of this plain rubbish - the aircraft are simply one aspect of much larger questions of organization, training, tactics, battle readiness which in itself is a universe, technical prowess and technical industrial capablity -- all one these days reads on our pages is curious combinations 45 FC20 35 Rafale - what The - WHY?? are these being handed out as khairaat somewhere?

As always, Muse! you are right, but the reason why so many Pakistanis are beleaguered by such thoughts is because, they have real capable and worthy Monster Planes out there, even flexing their muscles to the Chinese.

We have no such safe covers over our heads!! and its far better to be safe than sorry!!. This is the world of Realpolitik, only the strong have the right to survive. If we are weak, we will be sidelined.

I think the F16 is a great ship, it's just that it comes with "unkil" attached and as much as we may loath this fact, with F35 being supplied, bring many more F16 on the market - will Pakistan be positioned diplomatically to take advantage of this?

A very good point indeed! lemme dig something over it. I dont think the PAF or the Govt. are planning anything.

I
As for the Indian claims of X and z gen starships - really, really lets get a grip.

Killer words, but they are planning to produce the next generation plane within the next couple of years, far before we would have anything anywhere near, a good 4-4.5 one.

 

[Righteous_Fire]

I think at the moment PAF shld consider any western jet, J-10B and JF-17 to counter SU-30....forget abt MRCA,HAL- Tejas, FGFA and MCA deals ...they will not come up in IAF b4 2015.

I am sorry but those are all wrong dynamics

if that is with which we are to stand :

J-10B and JF-17 to counter SU-30....

then I dont think we have a good chance at all

This is the problem, PAF and our Govt. are not taking this issue as seriously as they should, they do not consider the MKIs to be capable

 

[IceCold]

I may sound show off or what ever but according to PAF officer who is stationed in chaklala PAF will only leasethe refulers... and also inorder to acquire another 4.5 generation platform possible is to drop FC-20 fallow on orders and possible reduce the JF-17 numbers to just 200..

Well that could certainly be the case. Also what do you think about a possible 5th generation fighter jet for PAF. Have you had any debate over this issue with the PAF officials u talked with?

 

[ice_man]

i heard we were being given the Jas39 with ToT by Sweden but we opted out!!! i mean why on earth would PAF not go for such a beauty of a fighter!!!! come on JF is not better than the Rafale,tornado,F-18 and so on.....but the Gripen was a beauty to be turned down!!

i know that it was way to advanced technology for the PAF to handle but hey one day we gotta learn so why not go through the learning curve at an early stage!!!!!!!

 

[muse]

but they are planning to produce the next generation plane within the next couple of years, far before we would have anything anywhere near, a good 4-4.5 one

No sir, this is not so - they may produce a prototype, which they will then have to test a variety of technologies with -- at the heart of this "proposed" ship will be a new generation of engines - are those ready to go? and how long will it take to put in place the infrastructure to service those engines, to train the techs? Khiali palau - Nobody, not even Indians behave in a vacuum, and they are not the only actors in the region.Security compulsions are directly related to geo-politics, and in geo-politics change is a given.

PAF, ARMY and NAVY are not created for power projection, their mission is defense, as it should be, therefore so long as these forces continue to deny hegemons the ability to dominate, they succeed in detering adventure.

 

[batmannow]

i guss, DEAR, Growler!
has showen, greatly needed !answered QUESTION? here!
i fully support the idea, that PAF should do some thing about it, but let me clear some of troubles in my very dear's mind!

what ever, CHINA & PAKISTAN , do in any of thier joint projects, only high command knows, & it was never, been disclosed by, any of heads from both of friendly countries.
so plz hang on!
dont think, that anything we get from CHINA, is a degraded version, of the weapon sys, this could have been RED TAPPED thing, whcih will never can be expolre by low level, staffars.

but, the NEED to have a cover, for our FC-20 & F16s or even FOR thunders is huge, IAF's heavy investment , is bringing some real threats , for sure!

i think , PAF needs to have short trem & long trem countering plans, i guss, offer's for J-11Bs is already on the table from the chinese side, & it wouldbe, a great multiplier, its handling could be, far more cheeper, and far more realistic & its spares or its technical, handling would be far more , ezier?

4 sqdrns of J-11Bs , with same kind of upgradation , as of our THUNDERS will be enough, in the short terms.

yes, we need a killer punch in the longer term, but what we can do?

Try to get , the Jas39 ,Rafale,tornados, or try to go straight to RUSSIA for MIG35/37 thing!
but if even we, can get those great machines, any how! there are no gurranties , that durring a WAR , all these machines , could be in the air? becuse of sanctions, likes or dislikes of supplying countries, also can we would be able to , keep them in good conditions, in the wartime.
these are the questions, where i only can see, CHINA doing all the stuff we need, & thats why i support even a , old mkk from china?

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Well that could certainly be the case. Also what do you think about a possible 5th generation fighter jet for PAF. Have you had any debate over this issue with the PAF officials u talked with?

I havent talked to him about "stealth" topic yet.... but in my opinion... China may come up with a dedicated export 5th generation fighter variant and pakistan my be the costumer.. but keeping pakistan and US history in mind... i wont be surprised if 7-8 years from now PAF decides to opt for F-35 and that should be a wise decision and of course only possible under clam political scenario between the two countries.

 

[Righteous_Fire]

i wont be surprised if 7-8 years from now PAF decides to opt for F-35 and that should be a wise decision and of course only possible under clam political scenario between the two countries.

I am pretty sure, they wont let us see the face of that bird for atleast another 2-3 decades, by which time, it will have become useless to us anyways.

 

[Sapper]

While trying to "downplay" FC20/J10, one must evaluate why China itself opted out of the advanced Su27 derivatives, namely Su30MKK and Su35 etc. China has much experience Su27 derivatives, flying them, building them, modifying them. But instead, they take pride in their "more/similarly capable" J10 program, much like US takes pride in F22. Every Chinese site you go, its J10, every news J10/FC20 ... why not Su27/Su30 series.

The reason is that they truly understand that they will develop it into an extremely potent fighter, at par with Su3x series, if not better. They are still procuring some Su30MKKs to bridge the gap, but soon they will be pushing FC20 beyond Su30MKK potential ... but it will take TIME. FC20 will soon become the workhorse of PLAAF, similar to F16 of USAF.

We will be lucky if we TAP into this resource, since we cannot afford twin engine class AIR-SUPERIORITY fighters, rather F16/FC20 class truly multi-role beauties.