Fawad Chaudhry launches 'Pakistan's first official' moonsighting website

[Verve]

Sorry bro I have no knowledge / information on how people of that time used to determine or what calendar they were following. Most of our history from that period was intentionally destroyed, what we read today may or may not be true history of those times.

That begs the question that Hadith were preserved and recorded but why the implementation of the Hadith by the closest companions was not? Who benefitted?

And here we are debating over interpretations of Quran and Hadith by those who were never the companions and without exploring how the Khulfa-e-Rashideen acted on.

29 years of Rashidun Caliphate. 21+ million people, 6+ million sq km area .... and no record of whether Eids were done as one unit or separately!

We should not debate interpretations anymore and keep it simple and logical, just as Islam is.

Witness should have irrefutable evidence of moon sighting and to my knowledge there are no specifics in Quran or Hadith that witness has to be area specific.

If moon is sighted in KSA or in any Muslim state (there are many do vast area is covered) and verified recorded evidence is available (at a state level), then start of Ramadan and Eid should be announced for all Muslims around the world.

But politics, power and relevance of those involved will not let this happen. Interpretations upon interpretations. Divided we remain.

 

[I.R.A]

We should not debate interpretations anymore and keep it simple and logical, just as Islam is.

Quran is its own interpretation. There is no need for a human to interpret something as simple as Quran that was sent for guidance of all the humanity. It is stupid to think that a divine message needs decoding. I don't know about others but I follow a very simple way ..... read all scattered verses related to any topic at one place in a sequence (tasreef ul ayat). Faltoo kay dramay aur hujatay gharnay ki zaroorat he nai hy.

Islam and Quran are very clear on clergy, priesthood ......... it is not something Islam appreciates or promotes, instead it is something that is called a way of exploiting and oppressing other humans.

That begs the question that Hadith were preserved and recorded but why the implementation of the Hadith by the closest companions was not? Who benefitted?

There is no proof that companions of Messenger Peace be upon him were assigned any special duty / role of writing down Messenger's sayings, on the contrary there is proof in these so called ahadees themselves that Messenger frowned upon people who wrote anything other than Quran, there is proof that both Abu Bakar and Omer burnt the written sayings.

It was Abbasid that happened to Muslims and every other person started narrating ahadees for political reasons, the imam mehdi is also invention of those times. It was mostly Persians who played a major role in all this.

As far as moon sighting goes ..... I always wonder why these people try sighting moon in cities? why can't they go to some hill station for one evening. In my opinion Popalzai in this case is more authentic because his witnesses are from areas where you can easily see the newly formed one day hilal with naked eyes. I remember in my childhood (living in a remote village, mountainous area) we would see moon very clearly and it was visible to everyone. So why doesn't this committee for once move their lazy rears and go to those places, and we would all know if Popalzai has been telling lies or it was this committee that was bent on spreading division and disunity.


Edit: And in Messenger's times people and Messenger used to navigate through stars. People (Muslims) who use GPS / technology and modern maps today should worry about their iman, they are breaking a Sunnah that was followed by Messenger and his companions.

 

[Verve]

As far as moon sighting goes ..... I always wonder why these people try sighting moon in cities? why can't they go to some hill station for one evening. In my opinion Popalzai in this case is more authentic because his witnesses are from areas where you can easily see the newly formed one day hilal with naked eyes. I remember in my childhood (living in a remote village, mountainous area) we would see moon very clearly and it was visible to everyone. So why doesn't this committee for once move their lazy rears and go to those places, and we would all know if Popalzai has been telling lies or it was this committee that was bent on spreading division and disunity.

City lights, pollution, dust etc in and around cities just makes it an utterly stupid and worst choice for sighting.

Hill stations it should always be and why can't it be multiple hill stations across the country?

It's all about being relevant and control for some. A few good men spread out on designated peaks around the country with a good SLR and powerful lens setup can do a proper job of being a witness than a few people on top of a roof in Karachi with one telescope posing in front of media.

It's common sense but that's becoming a rarity.

 

[criticalerror]

1) Neither Mufti Taqi Usmani's translation of 2:185 nor his commentary makes any mention of moonsighting.

2) Agreed

3) There is a huge difference between "views of scholars" and "words of Allah" ... We are not discussing the views of scholars here....

1)Taqi Usmani’s translation says witness and leaves it at that. It is open to interpretation and that is what i said.

3)Agreed. I never maintained views of the said scholars as definitive proof of them being words of Allah. Thats why i said it’s beside the point.

As for Taqi Usmani’s views he has maintained the following as well

That is why, despite having a different view, we validate the Hajj and Ramadan etc, as announced by the Saudi authorities [for applicability within Saudi Arabia]. The Muslims living in other parts of the world should desirably arrange their own system of sighting the moon, as is done in Pakistan and many other countries, because the system adopted in Saudi Arabia is not based on the stronger views

Yes, it is a lack of understanding on your part. There is absolutely no contradiction in what I stated

If you say so.

 

[M. Sarmad]

1)Taqi Usmani’s translation says witness and leaves it at that. It is open to interpretation and that is what i said.

3)Agreed. I never maintained views of the said scholars as definitive proof of them being words of Allah. Thats why i said it’s beside the point.

As for Taqi Usmani’s views he has maintained the following as well

That is why, despite having a different view, we validate the Hajj and Ramadan etc, as announced by the Saudi authorities [for applicability within Saudi Arabia]. The Muslims living in other parts of the world should desirably arrange their own system of sighting the moon, as is done in Pakistan and many other countries, because the system adopted in Saudi Arabia is not based on the stronger views

No, it's not open to interpretation. 'Witnessing Ramazan' simply means being present (at home) during Ramazan. This is the position held by all companions and commentators, therefore, we have no reason to believe that Mufti Taqi Usmani implied 'sighting the crescent' by saying 'witnessing Ramazan' esp. when he himself has not said so in his translation/commentary of 2:185. Moreover, Taqi Usmani prefers 'astronomical calculations' over 'eye-witnesses' so there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe/claim that as per Taqi Usmani 2:185 is about moonsighting.

To summarize this discussion, neither the Holy Qur'an nor the Sahih Hadith categorically prohibits using lunar calculations (or any other accurate method for that matter) to replace physical sighting of the moon. Some scholars have interpreted the Hadith ( that you quoted here) as implying 'prohibition of astronomical calculations to determine Ramazan days', some others have interpreted it as 'prohibition of preference of astronomical calculations over physical sighting of the moon' (view held by the majority of the scholars of the past), and then there are those also who have permitted using astronomical calculations to determine Ramazan days... However, we should keep in mind that all these inferences/deductions are essentially the views of Ulema based on their own understanding/interpretation of Islamic texts (and of the modern sciences, or the lack thereof) and not the words of Allah almighty or the Holy Prophet (PBUH)

 

[criticalerror]

No, it's not open to interpretation. 'Witnessing Ramazan' simply means being present (at home) during Ramazan. This is the position held by all companions and commentators, therefore, we have no reason to believe that Mufti Taqi Usmani implied 'sighting the crescent' by saying 'witnessing Ramazan' esp. when he himself has not said so in his translation/commentary of 2:185. Moreover, Taqi Usmani prefers 'astronomical calculations' over 'eye-witnesses' so there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe/claim that as per Taqi Usmani 2:185 is about moonsighting.

To summarize this discussion, neither the Holy Qur'an nor the Sahih Hadith categorically prohibits using lunar calculations (or any other accurate method for that matter) to replace physical sighting of the moon. Some scholars have interpreted the Hadith ( that you quoted here) as implying 'prohibition of astronomical calculations to determine Ramazan days', some others have interpreted it as 'prohibition of preference of astronomical calculations over physical sighting of the moon' (view held by the majority of the scholars of the past), and then there are those also who have permitted using astronomical calculations to determine Ramazan days... However, we should keep in mind that all these inferences/deductions are essentially the views of Ulema (based on their own understanding/interpretation of Islamic texts and modern sciences) and not the words of Allah almighty or the Holy Prophet (PBUH)

I like how anything is open to interpretation when i submit it but not when you post it. Translations of ulema ARE open to interpretation and they are NOT THE WORD of Allah.

As for the rest I generally agree, except for the part

Holy Qur'an nor the Sahih Hadith categorically prohibits using lunar calculations

The Hadeeth i posted prohibits starting of Ramzan without sighting the moon. It says nothing about lunar calculations because they are irrelevant to the beginning of Ramzan. Lunar calculations are completely fine as an aid, just not to be used to establish Ramzan/Eid.

 

[M. Sarmad]

I generally agree, except for the part



The Hadeeth i posted prohibits starting of Ramzan without sighting the moon. It says nothing about lunar calculations because they are irrelevant to the beginning of Ramzan. Lunar calculations are completely fine, just not to be used to establish Ramzan/Eid.

Yes, that's exactly what I said. There are scholars who interpret this Hadith the way you do. And you, of course, are free to follow them. But there are those also who disagree with this interpretation. There also is a Hadith that talks about calculations, illiteracy of Arabs and days of a lunar month. And as we aren't illiterate nation any longer, we can now use calculations to determine days. It's a 'story' of interpretations, in the end. Human intellect is limited and humans are inherently biased. Therefore, the human interpretations of the (same) divine revelation essentially tend to be contradictory in nature . Neither the Holy Qur'an nor the Sahih Hadith categorically prohibits using lunar calculations to determine Ramazan days, we only have 'inferences' and 'deductions' that are understandably mutually contradictory.

I like how anything is open to interpretation when i submit it but not when you post it. Translations of ulema ARE open to interpretation and they are NOT THE WORD of Allah.

My friend, you are deliberately mis-interpreting 'Witnessing Ramazan' to 'Sighting the crescent' ... Even you yourself know that you are wrong about Taqi Usmani, Don't you?

 

[ghazi52]

 

[criticalerror]

Yes, that's exactly what I said. There are scholars who interpret this Hadith the way you do. And you, of course, are free to follow them. But there are those also who disagree with this interpretation. There also is a Hadith that talks about calculations, illiteracy of Arabs and days of a lunar month. And as we aren't illiterate nation any longer, we can now use calculations to determine days. It's a 'story' of interpretations, in the end. Human intellect is limited and humans are inherently biased. Therefore, the human interpretations of the (same) divine revelation essentially tend to be contradictory in nature . Neither the Holy Qur'an nor the Sahih Hadith categorically prohibits using lunar calculations to determine Ramazan days, we only have 'inferences' and 'deductions' that are understandably mutually contradictory.

It is quite a logic leap from illiteracy of Arabs , to using lunar calculations for Ramzan. Also I already agreed about categorical rejection. It is only necessary when you are not talking about a singular condition. The difference between a blacklist and whitelist which i touched upon earlier.

Also please note it is even enjoined to count the days to Ramzan in Hadeeth. Counting the days till Ramzan so we know when to look for the moon. You keep associating my answers with prohibition of lunar calculations. They are not prohibited. They just can’t be used to declare the start of Ramzan/Eid.

My friend, you are deliberately mis-interpreting 'Witnessing Ramazan' to 'Sighting the crescent' ... Even you yourself know that you are wrong about Taqi Usmani, Don't you?

I quoted an excerpt from THE SAME LINK you shared. I am not even arguing about the interpretation. My post was in reply to link you posted. As for deliberate mis-interpretation, hypocrite much? Refernce the Hadeeth i keep sharing.

 

[M. Sarmad]

It is quite a logic leap from illiteracy of Arabs , to using lunar calculations for Ramzan. Also I already agreed about categorical rejection. It is only necessary when you are not talking about a singular condition. The difference between a blacklist and whitelist which i touched upon earlier.

Also please note it is even enjoined to count the days to Ramzan in Hadeeth. Counting the days till Ramzan so we know when to look for the moon. You keep associating my answers with prohibition of lunar calculations. They are not prohibited. They just can’t be used to declare the start of Ramzan/Eid.

You are entitled to your opinions and interpretations.
I disagree

I quoted an excerpt from THE SAME LINK you shared. I am not even arguing about the interpretation. My post was in reply to link you posted. As for deliberate mis-interpretation, hypocrite much? Refernce the Hadeeth i keep sharing.

Bro, I quoted a 14 page commentary on 2:185 .... But if you still believe that 2:185 is about physical sighting of the moon, then all I can say is: "May Allah guide you" ...

As they say, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink..
Have a nice day

 

[criticalerror]

You are entitled to your opinions and interpretations.
I disagree

You may. We don’t need to agree.

Bro, I quoted a 14 page commentary on 2:185 .... But if you still believe that 2:185 is about physical sighting of the moon, then all I can say is: "May Allah guide you" ...
As they say, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink..
Have a nice day

Yeah please keep quoting 2-185 when i am talking about the Hadeeth.

May Allah guide us all.

 

[ghazi52]

 

[criticalerror]

This accurately describes the situation if you add Popalzai to it as well