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F16/BLOCK 70 in USA Magazine

if you are talking about air to air combat then JF17 Alone + AWAC can takeout IAF's best of the best. and F16s and FC20 will be used for deep strike/multirole platform

but sir it is still in eveluation phase.

and sir dont it seem to be quite wishfull thinking,,, they have the bloody Su30z and Su27 these two planes alone seem to be be having potential to match the best in the world, the JF17 is for sure a best replacement for the mirages and F7, not only in pakistan but all over the world, it must surely be a good comprtitor in the international market but no against the lights of F16, 15 or !8 and The Su 27 or 30!!!

what do you say,
 
if you are talking about air to air combat then JF17 Alone + AWAC can takeout IAF's best of the best. and F16s and FC20 will be used for deep strike/multirole platform

sir my personal opinion is that no way the JF-17 is going to match the su30MKI
dont believe what the americans say about the red flag thing,both the planes the flanker mki and jf-17 have major russian components and technologies involved and as the russians say the su30mki is the best plane they have ever built, <iam not supporting iaf remember> if pakistan gets the j-10b then they can even think of matching the flanker. if the flanker wasnt't good the chinese wouldnt have ordered their own su30-MKK they would have being happy with their won copied models.
thanx
 
dont believe what the americans say about the red flag thing,both the planes the flanker mki and jf-17 have major russian components and technologies involved and as the russians say the su30mki is the best plane they have ever built, <iam not supporting iaf remember> if pakistan gets the j-10b then they can even think of matching the flanker. if the flanker wasnt't good the chinese wouldnt have ordered their own su30-MKK they would have being happy with their won copied models.
thanx

now this is the point sir,

is the Jf 17 was good enough why would china be spending millions and billions on the Su27, Su30z. even after havinf the J10 they still want the Su family
 
sir my personal opinion is that no way the JF-17 is going to match the su30MKI
dont believe what the americans say about the red flag thing,both the planes the flanker mki and jf-17 have major russian components and technologies involved and as the russians say the su30mki is the best plane they have ever built, <iam not supporting iaf remember> if pakistan gets the j-10b then they can even think of matching the flanker. if the flanker wasnt't good the chinese wouldnt have ordered their own su30-MKK they would have being happy with their won copied models.
thanx

JF-17 block 2 and 3 certianly have a great chance with AEWCS aganist MKI.
MKI does not want to be in thunders nest tiped with deadly MICA RF and IR!!
 
now this is the point sir,

is the Jf 17 was good enough why would china be spending millions and billions on the Su27, Su30z. even after havinf the J10 they still want the Su family

its because the JF-17 and the other aircraft are good but still the platform is not proved in a conflict so they dont want to put all the eggs in one basket so for precaution they are going for a few flankers still they master the technology of aircraft building in full.
 
sir my personal opinion is that no way the JF-17 is going to match the su30MKI
dont believe what the americans say about the red flag thing,both the planes the flanker mki and jf-17 have major russian components and technologies involved and as the russians say the su30mki is the best plane they have ever built, <iam not supporting iaf remember> if pakistan gets the j-10b then they can even think of matching the flanker. if the flanker wasnt't good the chinese wouldnt have ordered their own su30-MKK they would have being happy with their won copied models.
thanx

you are right in that aspect that SU30MKI having superior radar, have more weapons payload, speed and TVC. whereas JF17 currently is a light weight ADF. but that doesn't mean that JF17 can't fight with MKI.

now consider an air to air battle taken place in a neutral airspace in which JF17 faces MKI in ratio 3:1, equipped with SD10A/B/MICA Bvr and backed by an AWACs. MKI have huge RCS of 10.2m2 where as JF17 have very small Rcs (around 1.2m2-2m2) hence presence of AWAC will nullify MKI radar advantage and even put JF-17 in advantageous position. also, donot forgot about F16s in combat
As far as TVC is concerned.its for Twin engine fighters who cannot match the maneuverability of fighters like F-16. Neither F-16, F-18, or majority of aircrafts doesn't have TVC but still they are capable of engaging and shooting down any aircraft.
also, sukhoi must decrease its speed to go for TVC maneuver so that advantage is also nullified in BVR Combats.
so, in short, better tactics and training can make a difference :pakistan:
 
The SU30 MKI is the most agile combat plane in the world.

It also stated on Western forums that SU30 MKI is deadly even against late 4 generation fighters at WVR combat.

Infact at WVR the SU3O MKI carrying israeli avioncs HMS & TVC wud slaughter any F16 or JF17 fighter easily..

The flankers can be beaten at BVR by AESA equipped F18 OR typhoons etc but at short range the flankers are absolute beasts...
 
The SU30 MKI is the most agile combat plane in the world.

It also stated on Western forums that SU30 MKI is deadly even against late 4 generation fighters at WVR combat.

Infact at WVR the SU3O MKI carrying israeli avioncs HMS & TVC wud slaughter any F16 or JF17 fighter easily..

The flankers can be beaten at BVR by AESA equipped F18 OR typhoons etc but at short range the flankers are absolute beasts...

HMS and off-boresight LOAL missiles counter any advantage from the Flanker in WVR.
 
The SU30 MKI is the most agile combat plane in the world.

It also stated on Western forums that SU30 MKI is deadly even against late 4 generation fighters at WVR combat.

Infact at WVR the SU3O MKI carrying israeli avioncs HMS & TVC wud slaughter any F16 or JF17 fighter easily..

The flankers can be beaten at BVR by AESA equipped F18 OR typhoons etc but at short range the flankers are absolute beasts...

Indian troll/fanboy bullshit.
MKI is NOT the most agile combat plane in the world. Only on Indian military forums is the MKI more agile than F-22, Eurofighter Typhon, Saab Gripen, Dassault Rafale and J-10. In reality, it is not. These are the facts.

The people on Western forums stating that "SU30 MKI is deadly even against late 4 generation fighters at WVR combat" also state that ANY aircraft armed with the latest WVR AAMs and helmet mounted cueing system (or HMS) is deadly against late 4th gen fighters at WVR combat.

You say that F-16 and JF-17 will be slaughtered by your MKI because of "Israeli avionics, HMS and TVC." Guess what? PAF F-16s will be fitted with JHMCS and either IRIS-T or AIM-9X. Your Israeli avionics, HMS and TVC will NOT be able to save your MKIs from the Imaging Infra-Red seekers fitted to IRIS-T/AIM-9X. JF-17s/J-10s will also be fitted with HMS and 5th gen. European and Chinese WVR missiles such as A-Darter, IRIS-T and PL-ASR/PL-10. Look them up.
Your MKIs are good at short range, but they are NOT "absolute beasts" - except in the minds of certain Indians. If you want to call MKI a beast at WVR combat, you must say exactly the same thing about PAF's JF-17s, F-16s and especially J-10s.

MKIs are very good at BVR combat due to their PESA radars. But there is a problem with that too. Your MKI will not stand a chance against F-16s data-linked to Erieye and armed with 6 AMRAAMs each. Last time I checked, AMRAAMs still have the largest No Escape Zone of any BVR missile. F-16s don't need an AESA radar, the Erieye AEW&C will provide that to them via Link-16. Of course, you already know that: "The flankers can be beaten at BVR by AESA equipped..."

In summary, you should be a little more realistic about the capabilities of your armed forces, good sir. Please stick to the facts.
 
Originally by Owais
now consider an air to air battle taken place in a neutral airspace in which JF17 faces MKI in ratio 3:1, equipped with SD10A/B/MICA Bvr and backed by an AWACs. MKI have huge RCS of 10.2m2 where as JF17 have very small Rcs (around 1.2m2-2m2) hence presence of AWAC will nullify MKI radar advantage and even put JF-17 in advantageous position. also, donot forgot about F16s in combat
As far as TVC is concerned.its for Twin engine fighters who cannot match the maneuverability of fighters like F-16. Neither F-16, F-18, or majority of aircrafts doesn't have TVC but still they are capable of engaging and shooting down any aircraft.
also, sukhoi must decrease its speed to go for TVC maneuver so that advantage is also nullified in BVR Combats.
so, in short, better tactics and training can make a difference

thankyou sir, this was a nuce statement indeed.

thanks
 
now consider an air to air battle taken place in a neutral airspace in which JF17 faces MKI in ratio 3:1,

can you explain this, how are we going to get this neumeric advantage, sir? as we never had it in the past,

actually the thinks that worries me is that the difference of technology and generations of technology is being widened, previously this was not the case. we always had neumeric disadvantage but on technically terms we were almost almost same to india.

even now the ground forces are quite capable of a strong resistance to any mis-adventure from indian side, with our superior tanks, anti-tank systems, fairly good avaitation wing and good looking artilery fire power, we seem to be quite good.

In navy we have extremely capable subs and the deal for the U212 is also going on. then with the F22p frigates we will be fine, supported by some high-tech missile boats.

missiles as the world knows, we are really good

but now as far as the air superiority is concerned, we do lack by ages!!, no extra ordinary planes and not even an average SAM system.
this is what the govt shoul take care of, and take some steps on war-footings!
 
In Rely to HJ786

in Response to

You say that F-16 and JF-17 will be slaughtered by your MKI because of "Israeli avionics, HMS and TVC." Guess what? PAF F-16s will be fitted with JHMCS and either IRIS-T or AIM-9X. Your Israeli avionics, HMS and TVC will NOT be able to save your MKIs from the Imaging Infra-Red seekers fitted to IRIS-T/AIM-9X. JF-17s/J-10s will also be fitted with HMS and 5th gen. European and Chinese WVR missiles such as A-Darter, IRIS-T and PL-ASR/PL-10. Look them up.
Your MKIs are good at short range, but they are NOT "absolute beasts" - except in the minds of certain Indians. If you want to call MKI a beast at WVR combat, you must say exactly the same thing about PAF's JF-17s, F-16s and especially J-10s.



Whislt i acknowledge the F16/52 has a good option PAF will have no more 62 planes

JF17 is not the F16 " THE CHINEASE CALL IT ( low cost meduim tech) plane..

JF17 is not operational and the first 50 will carry chinease radar & SD10 BVR missle.

This radar & the russian RD93 engine is not saisfactory " hence paf is looking at weestern upgrade"

WAT YOU ARE SAYING IS WE DON,T TRUST CHINEASE ARMS as proficient as the western...

SO wen you talk about 5 generation chinease WVR " i think wat are talking about" you don,t even wat their 3rd generation WVR"

how conradictary are you...

By the time the PAF ever has the $$$ to induct J10 and pay for massive upgrade to JF17 to a near 4th gen capability we are looking at a time frame of 2015 SO WITH THAT IN MIND

SU30 MKI X 230 of these beasts will be operating with 50+ rafael/ AESA equipped F18 hornets

120 UPGRADED mirage 2000-9 & mig29k/smt

& 40+ Aesa equipped TEJAS (israeli ELTA 2052 AESA)

As well 3 may be upto 6 PHALCON AWACS

thats why those F16/JF17 & J10 will slaughtered

they will be outnumbered and face superior technology

by 2015 the rank on sophistaction in south Asia will be as follows


1. MRCA winner (AESA equipped F18 OR RAFAEL)
2 .Su30 mki
3. J10 (MAYBE depending on if PAF gets western tech upgrade)
4. F16/52 MIRAGE 2000-9 tied
5. mig29 smt (JF17 & lca tejas)

in other words PAFs main fighters will fal behind IAFs best

*** if you spend peanuts

wat do you expect !!!!!!!!!!
 
The way you type, you seem to think you know the facts, but you only present half-truths.

Even 60-70 block-52 and MLU F-16s is not to be taken lightly. You forget they are armed with AMRAAMs and do not need to approach Indian fighters OR switch on their own radars! With Erieye giving them target cues through Link-16, they can simply rain AMRAAMs at any intruders while other PAF aircraft go WVR.
I already know that JF-17 is a low cost medium tech plane and it is not the F-16. What is your point? The first JF-17 squadron will be set up by middle of this year (2009), so JF-17 is as near as makes no difference operational. Yes the first 50 will carry Chinese radar and SD-10. Again, what is your point exactly? PAF has already stated that the Chinese radar meets all their current requirements. The radar IS satisfactory. ACM has stated this, the JF-17 test pilots themselves have said it is a "pretty good radar." PAF is looking at western upgrades to make JF-17 competitive radar/weaponry/EW/ECM-wise to your MMRCA, not because they don't like Chinese tech. If they did not like Chinese tech., why do they use so many Chinese built aircraft?

You are correct that RD-93 is not 100&#37; satisfactory at the moment. But it gives JF-17 a TWR of 0.95 - that is better than your Mirage 2000, which has TWR of (correct me if I am wrong) 0.93! You do realise that a TWR of 1 or above is very good? If you round 0.95 up to zero decimal places you get a TWR of.... 1. The main problem with RD-93, as far as I know, is that it's mean time between overhauls is rubbish, not that it's performance is bad. In case you didn't know, RD-93 will be replaced with the Chinese WS-13 TianShan which is both more powerful and more reliable than the RD-93. Last we heard, WS-13 has already undergone final stages of testing - that was last year.

" WAT YOU ARE SAYING IS WE DON,T TRUST CHINEASE ARMS as proficient as the western... "

I HAVE NOT SAID ANY SUCH THING! STOP TYPING RUBBISH!

" SO wen you talk about 5 generation chinease WVR " i think wat are talking about" you don,t even wat their 3rd generation WVR" how conradictary are you..."

What the hell do you mean? PL-9C is generation 3.75. Go to sino defence forum and ask for yourself. How am I being contradictory? This line of your post does not make sense.

As for your 230 MKI and 50+ MMRCA, why don't you go find out WHEN those numbers will be reached? As of now you have only 80 or so MKI and precisely ZERO MMRCA. MMRCA will take years if you haven't figured it out yet. Your Mirage 2000 and Mig-29s are also not upgraded yet. As for your Tejas, don't make me laugh. They will not have AESA until at least 2020 or so and those first 40 will not be capable of combat! Again, correct me if I am wrong but give sources.

Your AWACS won't arrive for some years. 2012 I believe? Again somebody correct me if I am wrong, but PAF's start arriving this year! They already have a training aircraft, delievered last month I think. You and I both know you are only contracted for 3. Six will take even longer. If you want to say "maybe we will have this/that" then I can say maybe PAF will have a space battlecruiser by 2012.

You still haven't shown how your "superior technology" will "slaughter" JF-17s, F-16s and J-10s. By 2015, PAF will be flying an entirely new fleet. By the way, put PAF's J-10 (a.k.a. FC-20) above MKI. FC-20 will have PESA/AESA and TVC too. Chinese pilots have already shown J-10 is better WVR than any flanker, both without TVC. Therefore if TVC is as great as you think it is, FC-20 with TVC will be better than your TVC MKIs. Your "rank" list is nothing but chest-beating and rubbish. BVR I have already shown F-16 + AMRAAMs backed by Erieye will beat anything on that list with the possible exception of the MMRCA, which again, will not be operational for years.

Yes, you are right PAF spends peanuts compared to IAF. Again, what is your point? We don't need a thousand jet fighters to make ourselves feel adequate.

In your original post you were stating that InAF aircraft are technologically superior to PAF aircraft. In my replies, I have proved to you that they are not, or at least will not be when PAF's new fleet becomes operational over the next 1-2 years. Now you are arguing that InAF has numerical superiority too, which I must agree with. But this is still not an interesting discussion, just a pissing contest and so far you have shown you are a clueless child with a big ego. Do you honestly expect people here to take you seriously when all you can come up with is "WE HAVE FLANKERS, WE HAVE THIS, WE HAVE THAT AND THEY ARE BETTER THAN PAKISTANI JUNK!!!"
 
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Your replys HJ786.

Are again full of MISINFORMATION.

More facts not made up no wish lists. You can check any number of websites you wish.

1. First Phalcon Awacs arrive next month during AERO INDO 2009.

2ND ONE IN Nov 2009

3rd MID 2010.

2. The contract for upgrading 51 mirage 2000H to Mirage2 2000-9 WAS SIGNED earlier this year with france at the same time that india signed the Scorpene sub deal. This will cost $1.5 billion for upgrade

3. The combat testing evaluation for MMRCA will begin in March ie 2 months time. This contract will be awardred in Oct 2009.

First delivery of 18 fighters by 2011. License production of a rafael or super hornet combat MMRCA in india by 2012..running thru to 2020

THAT IS A FACT you know that like every other forum member

MMRCA is a massive part of india military modernisation programme ..

4. You said india only has 80 su30 mki as of today.

Yes but IAF is license building them this second as you speak

5. You say in 1-2 years PAF will match IAF for technology.

I say NO CHANCE......

Reason simple......

Other then 18 new F16 block/52 paf will have nothing new.

the JF17 will take 1 more year to acheive IOC.

aND ANOTHER 2 MORE to achieve FOC. Even then it will be behind both the F16/52 & THE su30 mki in tech and power..

By 2011 india upgraded MIRAGE 2000-9 WILL BE EQUAL TO F16/52 and superior to JF17.... ash why.

Because new radar RD400 and new MICA WVR MISSLE & Meteor BVR MISSLE missle WILL make those fighters the second best in india,s inventory and in South Asia
 
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