F-7P and F-7PG

[Yasser76]

I do not think we have F-7s in any frontline units, just for training.

The PG is indeed serving with three frontline units, these airframes are relatively new and of course with better bubble canopy, cranked wing design, Grifo radar and AIM-9L a very decent point defence fighter.

I think PAF would like to maintain the PGs for some time, advantages are

1) For peacetime air policing on quiet Iran and Afghan borders (where we have actually stationed the PGs), these re cheap and effective (unautherised flights, airliners not responding, keeping an eye on Iranian/Afghan jets coming to close etc)
2) As someone mentioned earlier, cheap way of getting hours up, especially for officers in desk jobs (as most of PAF would have experianced F-7 at LIFT training most of PAF can fly it to keep up hours)
3) If our frontline force entirely becomes JF-17/F-16/AZM, then always handy to have a small cheap jet for DACT against.

The disadvantges of the PG include

1) Range, I think an hour up in the air is the best you get. These birds do not have any plumbing for air to air refuelling either
2) Light combat load, pretty much maxed out with 4 AIM-9Ls and 3 fuel tanks
3) The Grifo is a decent set but in world of AESA will easily be jammed in the future if fighting a high end enemy
4) Lack of data link. Unlike JF-17s/F-16s the avionics and cockpit cannot support giving a secure air picture from say a Erieye

For the above, as mentioned, decent, cheap fighter for quiet border areas

 

[Nomad40]

I do not think we have F-7s in any frontline units, just for training.

The PG is indeed serving with three frontline units, these airframes are relatively new and of course with better bubble canopy, cranked wing design, Grifo radar and AIM-9L a very decent point defence fighter.

I think PAF would like to maintain the PGs for some time, advantages are

1) For peacetime air policing on quiet Iran and Afghan borders (where we have actually stationed the PGs), these re cheap and effective (unautherised flights, airliners not responding, keeping an eye on Iranian/Afghan jets coming to close etc)
2) As someone mentioned earlier, cheap way of getting hours up, especially for officers in desk jobs (as most of PAF would have experianced F-7 at LIFT training most of PAF can fly it to keep up hours)
3) If our frontline force entirely becomes JF-17/F-16/AZM, then always handy to have a small cheap jet for DACT against.

The disadvantges of the PG include

1) Range, I think an hour up in the air is the best you get. These birds do not have any plumbing for air to air refuelling either
2) Light combat load, pretty much maxed out with 4 AIM-9Ls and 3 fuel tanks
3) The Grifo is a decent set but in world of AESA will easily be jammed in the future if fighting a high end enemy
4) Lack of data link. Unlike JF-17s/F-16s the avionics and cockpit cannot support giving a secure air picture from say a Erieye

For the above, as mentioned, decent, cheap fighter for quiet border areas

ahhan but flying a fighter is not cheap after all jet fuel = jet fuel and 3000 kg of F-7PG fuel is 3000 kg of F-16 Block 52 fuel, 3 hours of maintenance is 3 hours of Maintenance so I will not say it is a cheap plane but what I can say that it is more affordable than others to induct. One has to make sure to never cheap out on maintenance and maintain highest standards at all time.

I am displeased with your rational of desk job officers flying it because it is a Mach 2+ fighter and consequences are lethal and remember the F-7P is not an easy plane to fly and the PG is more forgiving but the plane has to be respected.

The P.A.F is an Air force and not a flying club where people fly for the sake of flying so please I would like you to understand the good ol saying (Train to fly, fly to fight, fight to kill).

You made good point about LIFT but AESA and Link 16/17 or eyrie is not something that the role of the F-7PG has to have, there are plenty other options and F-16 + JF-17 + mirage rose ii and iii to take care of that stuff.

I like that you mention DACT.

 

[SQ8]

F-7PG possibly has HMS active - although of the rather crude monocle type based upon early Russian designs.

 

[Yasser76]

ahhan but flying a fighter is not cheap after all jet fuel = jet fuel and 3000 kg of F-7PG fuel is 3000 kg of F-16 Block 52 fuel, 3 hours of maintenance is 3 hours of Maintenance so I will not say it is a cheap plane but what I can say that it is more affordable than others to induct. One has to make sure to never cheap out on maintenance and maintain highest standards at all time.

I am displeased with your rational of desk job officers flying it because it is a Mach 2+ fighter and consequences are lethal and remember the F-7P is not an easy plane to fly and the PG is more forgiving but the plane has to be respected.

The P.A.F is an Air force and not a flying club where people fly for the sake of flying so please I would like you to understand the good ol saying (Train to fly, fly to fight, fight to kill).

You made good point about LIFT but AESA and Link 16/17 or eyrie is not something that the role of the F-7PG has to have, there are plenty other options and F-16 + JF-17 + mirage rose ii and iii to take care of that stuff.

I like that you mention DACT.

I do not post so you can like my posts, I post to share what is actually common knowledge.

An F-16 costs much more to operate per hour than a F-7PG. It is not just fuel and maintenance. Spare parts and overhaul costs are much much higher. PAF has to import parts from US, we can make most of F-7 spare parts. Also in training weapons are often expended and US weapons on F-16 are not cheap

In any air force, when you are not frontline it is still imperative you keep up flight hours, even if it is a different type and you are not training for war. This is common.

I specifically mentioned that we have F-16/JF-17 for higher end threats, unsure if you understood what I wrote but you seem to be saying I am wrong than using my own points to agree with me

 

[Nomad40]

I do not post so you can like my posts, I post to share what is actually common knowledge.

An F-16 costs much more to operate per hour than a F-7PG. It is not just fuel and maintenance. Spare parts and overhaul costs are much much higher. PAF has to import parts from US, we can make most of F-7 spare parts. Also in training weapons are often expended and US weapons on F-16 are not cheap

In any air force, when you are not frontline it is still imperative you keep up flight hours, even if it is a different type and you are not training for war. This is common.

I specifically mentioned that we have F-16/JF-17 for higher end threats, unsure if you understood what I wrote but you seem to be saying I am wrong than using my own points to agree with me

I am afraid that your common knowledge is flawed.....some of the most respected Fighter pilots train day in and out on the F-7PG with young OC and then posted to higher types.

induct = everything, parts and all that are an obvious.

F-7PG also carries majority of the west or "US weapons" aside from the aim-120 C-5 and heavy GBU. most training exercise are conducted with 7kg B-bombs or Concrete bombs or live 500 pounders.

Keeping up flight hours is one thing and flying a fighter is another.....there are K-8s and killer bees for that type of work and honestly I have seen more super "Mushtaqs" flown by desk flyers.

Keeping current with respective type is another ball game and not a temporary fix.

As I always say every on is entitled to their own opinion no matter how wrong but sir Facts are hard to bargain with.

but then again what do I know?

 

[Trailer23]

You forgot to tag @Imran Khan bhai.

Now you'll get all the problems in the F-7 in pointers.

I like his: "Agey say our peechay say aik jaisa he lagta hai"

 

[Nomad40]

You forgot to tag @Imran Khan bhai.

Now you'll get all the problems in the F-7 in pointers.

I like his: "Agey say our peechay say aik jaisa he lagta hai"

do me a favor tag all the trouble makers.....Pawrii karty hy.

 

[Bilal9]

There is a similar discussion on the Bangladesh sub-forum opened by @GumNaam bhai for F-7MB's and BGI's.

BAF F-7s Taxing & Landing in 4K...

I don't care who says what, but F-7s are by far the best MiG-21 versions ever produced with the F-7 G versions being the top beasts of these beauties...enjoy! 😊

defence.pk

 

[GumNaam]

radar range up-to 35kms or more ? Does it carry any fox3 ? or only fox 1s ?

nope, neither. only fox 2s. But here's the kicker...they fly under the cover of BVR fighters like JF17s and F16s, these birds target the enemy fighters by firing their fox3s, when the enemy dives & turns to evade those BVR missiles, the F7s and the F7PGs pounce full throttle at those enemies and fire fox2s at them, even if they are lucky enough to evade the fox3s, the fox2s will get em...theoretically, it's possible that both fox3s & fox2s can be evaded but given the practical environment full EW & communications jamming, chances of surviving such a scenario are slim to none, ESPECIALLY in a mountainous environment where the F7s & F7PGs are flying low & tree to levels behind the mountain hills. The key to success in this scenario remain resilient against electronic warfare. indian tried the same technique on Feb 27 with their bvr su30 covering the bison. but the problem was that those bastards were flying jammed & blind, as per abhi-none-done's own admission, he had no idea what hit him, his radar didn't work, his rwr didn't work, his com to his ground or awacs station didn't work, everything was jammed.

 

[Yasser76]

I am afraid that your common knowledge is flawed.....some of the most respected Fighter pilots train day in and out on the F-7PG with young OC and then posted to higher types.

induct = everything, parts and all that are an obvious.

F-7PG also carries majority of the west or "US weapons" aside from the aim-120 C-5 and heavy GBU. most training exercise are conducted with 7kg B-bombs or Concrete bombs or live 500 pounders.

Keeping up flight hours is one thing and flying a fighter is another.....there are K-8s and killer bees for that type of work and honestly I have seen more super "Mushtaqs" flown by desk flyers.

Keeping current with respective type is another ball game and not a temporary fix.

As I always say every on is entitled to their own opinion no matter how wrong but sir Facts are hard to bargain with.

but then again what do I know?

I do not understand, you are basically agreeing with me yet at the same time saying I am wrong? Can you please re read my posts? I actually said PAF pilots will fly many types to keep up hours, than you state the same and say I am flawed!? Can you read English?

It's not my "own opinion", F-16 hours costing more then F-7 hours is a fact, not an "opinion".

Every fighter has very different flight hour operatiing costs

The Hourly Cost Of Operating The U.S. Military's Fighter Fleet [Infographic]

Modern military fighter aircraft are extremely expensive to procure with the unit cost for a single F-35A coming to $98 million, according to Lockheed Martin. That program has already gone down as the most expensive weapons system in history and it's set to cost $1.509 trillion through to 2070...

www.forbes.com

https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RR1100/RR1178/RAND_RR1178.pdf

I think you need to read up more my friend

 

[Shabi1]

Can anyone give the differences between F-7PG and F-7BGI (later variant F-17BGs).

BGI was the last variant, with changes. Is it worth it, upgrading the F-7PGs if we want to keep them flying patrolling the western border?

 

[Tipu7]

F7s are almost gone. F7PG are in line and hopefully will get replaced in near future.
These aircrafts were acquired as a desperate measure to support the depleting strength of PAF without placing big burden over the budget.
Later, Jf17 saved the day and successfully averted the obsolescence crisis.

This ناک کٹاجہاز is now good for point air defense only with some other
زبر دستی کی مسلط ذمہ داریاں

I know it has a fan base and few in PAF still fantisize about it's 'true potential', and in certain circumstances it can ambush its prey in air, but overall it's an out dated aircraft good for secondary roles at its best.

Modern air combat has changed and there is a limit upto which an outdated design can be pushed.

 

[iLION12345_1]

Can anyone give the differences between F-7PG and F-7BGI (later variant F-17BGs).

BGI was the last variant, with changes. Is it worth it, upgrading the F-7PGs if we want to keep them flying patrolling the western border?

F7PG is not worth keeping in the air unless it receives a major upgrade program like ROSE. Despite being delivered a lot more recently than mirages, the MiG-21 airframe can only be taken so far until it needs to be fully rebuilt, and that’s simply not worth the money, replacing them With JF-17s is a much better option and I do not expect to see any F7 variant flying by 2025. Mirages by 2030.
Pakistan will not simply settle for JF-17 either, J10C or another aircraft (and more F16s if at all possible) are very likely to be acquired to speed up the replacement of older aircraft.

F7s have been retired fully, PG is in service but is next on the chopping board, even if we lose a few jets in numbers, the capability difference between a Thunder block 3 and an F7PG is so massive that it makes up for the loss in numbers.

 

[khanasifm]

People of Defence PK, I want all of us to get together and list out why the F-7 appears to be a problematic topic in the community.

Over here we will critically analyze the F-7 Variants operated by the P.A.F and if the F-7 Variants operated by the P.A.F are relevant in the coming decades.

I humbly request all participants to specify the variant of the F-7 "P or PG' they wish to discuss, share thoughts or simply vent about.

Hopefully this thread receives a warm and positive response of the community members.View attachment 718820View attachment 718821View attachment 718819

With 2400 hours total airframe life plus extension package by Pac with out Chinese support of another 100-200 hours there is no life left

mirage has 8000 hours airframe/fuselage life so still being kept and will out live f7s

lastly per ac tufail it’s a simple fighter with no problem and fulfill its point interception role very well

with 40-55 minutes max sortie time fuel capacity of 23/2400 liter internally plus drop tanks of 800 centerline plus 2x500 Liter drop it tanks it’s was limited endurance

 

[JamD]

There was/is a proposal to convert the F-7Ps that we retire into a remotely piloted/autonomous QF-16 type system. Unfortunately, the higher ups were/are only considering it as a Kamikaze style system and consequently it hasn't gotten off the ground (yet). If they can be convinced of the real utility of this kind of system (EW, decoy, UCAV), then this program might actually happen.