F-7

[Tiger Shark]

Countries of Origin Russia

Builder Mikoyan-Gurevich [Russia]

Variants MiG-21bis-B Fishbed N

Role Ground-attack, interceptor,

Span 23 ft. 6 in. Length 51 ft. 9 in. Height 15 ft. 9 in. Weight 18,080 lbs. max. Engines MiG-21 = Tumansky R-11F-300 @ 12,675 lbst w/afterburner

Range MIG-21bis = 600 nm range

Service Ceiling 50,000 ft / 14000 meters

Internal Fuel 2364 kg MIG-21bis

Sensors MIG-21bis = Jay Bird radar, RWR, Balistic bombsight

Armament MIG-21bis = UV-69 57 rocket pods, AA-8 Aphid, FAB-250, FAB-500

Investory 388 Aircraft in Indian Airforce
Countries of Origin China Builder [China] @ Shenyang, Chengdu & Guizhou Variants

Role Ground-attack Interceptor,trainer

Span J-7 III = Wopen-13 turbofan @ 14,550-lbst Crew One

Maximum speed 1,300 mph. Cruising speed 550 J-7 III = 1,350 mi /
2,200 km ferry range

Service Ceiling 50,000 ft / 14000 meters
Internal Fuel 869 kg J-7

Sensors J-7 = Type 222 ranging radar, RWR, Ballistic bombsight

ArmamentJ-7 = 2 PL-2 or PL-7 AAM and 1 800 L drop tank (685 nm)

Investory 225 Aircraft in Pakistan Airforce

Dont waste time on future Aircraft Please compare Today With today
Your Comments Please

 

[Tiger Shark]

338 vs 225 what you guys suggest

 

[miroslav]

Originally posted by happybirthdaytoyou@Nov 22 2005, 01:22 PM
338 vs 225 what you guys suggest

[post=3415]Quoted post[/post]​

Brother,

It is not that all the 388 IAF MiG-21's are Bis standard.

We are also scrapping/Scrapped around 4-5 Squadrons of MiG-21's recently.

Secondly you cannot compare them with numbers as IAF/PAF are not going to use every one of them in war scenario.

Thirdly what is the assurity that they will face each other in the air all the time????

May be F-7 or MiG-21 will face other fighters.

So what is the point of starting this thread?? Please explain so I will post accordingly.

Thanks,

Miro

 

[Tiger Shark]

Why everybody giving their wish list all the time and trying to compare IAF with PAF. According to you not all the Mig 21 or SU 30 or Mirage 2000-5 or F-16 are not facing each other all the time. For Example in 1965 war India Mig 21 at that time Mig 21 is the Most Superior Aircraft but un-fortunately they were not able to use. What was reason the reason? Can you please explain?
Secondly if you are talking about SU-30 on the papers there is not a single aircraft in the Pakistan Arsenal to match with this DEVIL. Accordingly to my information India have around 40-50 SU-30.Are you sure that Pakistan officials are fools or they are not aware of this serious problem that IAF will get 190 SU-30 and around 200 Latest Air birds. And lastly about your question why I am comparing these two machines is to explain this that there is always a balance b/w PAF IAF or Pakistan is always ahead of IAF not in terms of quantity but in term of qualities. The 338 vs. 225 is not a big gap b/w two forces front line Air birds
Thanks

 

[miroslav]

Originally posted by happybirthdaytoyou@Nov 22 2005, 04:46 PM
Why everybody giving their wish list all the time and trying to compare IAF with PAF. According to you not all the Mig 21 or SU 30 or Mirage 2000-5 or F-16 are not facing each other all the time. For Example in 1965 war India Mig 21 at that time Mig 21 is the Most Superior Aircraft but un-fortunately they were not able to use. What was reason the reason? Can you please explain?
Secondly if you are talking about SU-30 on the papers there is not a single aircraft in the Pakistan Arsenal to match with this DEVIL. Accordingly to my information India have around 40-50 SU-30.Are you sure that Pakistan officials are fools or they are not aware of this serious problem that IAF will get 190 SU-30 and around 200 Latest Air birds. And lastly about your question why I am comparing these two machines is to explain this that there is always a balance b/w PAF IAF or Pakistan is always ahead of IAF not in terms of quantity but in term of qualities. The 338 vs. 225 is not a big gap b/w two forces front line Air birds
Thanks

[post=3433]Quoted post[/post]​

Pakistani officials are not fool but they are lacking money. I have posted some of the articles by the PAF servicemen about the imbalance.

As I said IAF scrapped/Scrapping 5 squadrons of MiG-21's this year and upgrading more than 125 MiG-21 Bis to the Bison standard for which F-7 has no match.

thanks,

Miro

 

[miroslav]

The MiG-21 Bison Upgrade

125 MiG-21bis are selected to be upgraded by MiG-MAPO and HAL. Reportedly another 50 aircraft will be upgraded, after the 125 initial order. The first two aircraft were upgraded in Russia, with the first test flight occurring in October 1998 and trials of the medium-range R-73RDM2 and the long-range R-77RVV-AE air-to-air missiles being conducted in February 1999. These two aircraft have returned to India and as of July 2001, four aircraft have been upgraded adding to the first two. Test flights began in June 2001, while HAL has confirmed that modernisation is taking place. All aircraft will be upgraded locally at HAL and will be completed by 2004. The aircraft will be designated by the IAF as the MiG-21 Bison.

The upgrade consists of Phazotron NIIR's Kopyo multimode, X-band pulse Doppler radar, new nosecone, new canopy, single-piece windshield and new canopy made of stressed acrylic composites, Sextant's TOTEM RLG-INS with NSS-100P GPS embedded GPS receivers, El-Op HUD, infrared search and track system (IRST) from Russia's URALs optical-mechanical plant, two Sextant MFD-55 LCD displays, autopilot, radar warning receivers (RWR), digital flight data recorder, new liquid air cooling system, HOTAS controls, a SURA helmet mounted sight, stores management system, digital air data computer system, short range radio navigation system, new HF/VHF/UHF radios, twin conformal Vympel flare dispensers (26mm, 120 rounds) and a new electric power supply system. Reportedly the new RWR to be fitted, is an indigenous system developed by DRDO and goes by the name Tarang. A modified version of this RWR will be used aboard the Su-30MKI.

Miro

 

[Tiger Shark]

further improved version of the J-7E, known as J-7G, was first spotted under flight test in 2002. The J-7G is similar to the J-7E in basic aerodynamic layout, but has upgraded avionics. The J-7G is said to be fitted with a new indigenous KLJ-6E pulse-Doppler fire-control radar, which may be a Chinese copy of the Israeli EL/M2001 optimised for PL-8B and PL-5C short-range AAMs. A new electronic countermeasures (ECM) suite includes a Type-III all aspect radar warning receiver (RWR) and chaff/flare dispenser.

The J-7G also features a single-piece curving windscreen in place of the original three-segment windscreen. A new type of communications antenna is located behind the canopy. Additionally the J-7G might also be fitted with hemlet-mounted sight (HMS) for close air combat. As a result of the increased avionics weight, Chengdu engineers had to remove one 30mm cannon onboard, leaving the aircraft with only one cannon (60 rounds).

The unique double-delta-shape wing of the J-7E designed by Northwest Polytechnic University (NPU) has a slightly larger wingspan and wing area, giving the J-7E a bigger internal fuel capacity and better manoeuvrability. The original WP-7B turbojet was replaced by an improved WP-13F. The J-7E is comparable in manoeuvrability and general performance to early versions of the F-16A/B, and can make a serious challenge to a modern fighter in 'dog fight' air combat.

WEAPONS

Fixed weapon includes two (J-7G only has one) 30mm Type 30-1 cannon with 60 rounds per gun in the lower sides of the fuselage. Four under-wing stores stations can carry up to 2,000kg of disposable stores (each unit rated at 500kg), typical weapons are PL-8, and PL-9 short-range AAMs, free-fall weapons such as 500, 250, 100 and 50kg bombs, and multiple launchers each carrying twelve 55mm or seven 90mm unguided rockets. Centre fuselage station and two outboard wing stations are pumped to carry 720 litre drop tanks.

AVIONICS

Avionics configuration varies on different variants.

Fire-control: Three options are available for the fire-control radar on J-7E/F-7MG series:

The GEC-Marconi Super Skyranger PD fire-control radar, X-band, detect-range of 15km, look-down, shoot-down, track up to 8 targets simultaneously.
The Italian Grifo-7 fire-control radar, I-band, detect-range of 55km.
Indigenous Type 226 PD fire-control radar (J-7E).
New indigenous PD fire-control radar (J-7G)
If necessary, the J-7E could also easily adopt the helmet-mounted sight (HMS) for better combat effectiveness.

Flight: WL-7 radio compass; 0101 HR A2 altitude radio altimeter; LTC-2 horizon gyro; XS-6 marker beacon receiver; VOR; Distance Measure Equipment (DME); Instrument Landing System (ILS), TAKAN navigation system.

Self-defence: South-West China Research Institute of Electronic Equipment KG-8602 RWR interfaced with the South-West China Research Institute of Electronic Equipment KG-8605 internal radar noise jammer and China National Import and Export Corporation GT-1 chaff/flare dispenser, and Type 602 'Odd Rods' IFF.

Avionics upgrades include a new head-up display (HUD), radar warning receiver (RWR), air data computer, GPS and inertial navigation system (INS), and a new pulse-Doppler fire-control radar based on Russian or Israeli technology.

POWERPLANT

One Liyang (LMC) Wopen-13F (R-13-300) turbojet rated at 44.1kN dry and 66.7kN with afterburning. Nose air inlet.

SPECIFICATIONS

Crew: 1
Dimensions: Wingspan: 8.32m; Length: 14.885m; Height: 4.103m
Weight: Empty: 5,292kg; Normal take-off: 7,540kg; Maximum take-off: 9,100kg
Max Speed: Mach 2.0
Radius: (Long-range interception with two AAMs and three 720 liter drop tanks at speed of Mach 1.5) 850km; (Interception with two bombs and three 720 liter drop tanks, lo-lo-hi) 550km
Range: ferry range 2,200km
Service Ceiling: 18,800m
Max Climb Rate: 195m/s (sea level)
G limit: -3 to +8 (5,000 m)

 

[Tiger Shark]

I personlay think that F-7 is little much better than Mig 21 Bison

 

[miroslav]

Originally posted by happybirthdaytoyou@Nov 22 2005, 05:18 PM
I personlay think that F-7 is little much better than Mig 21 Bison

[post=3439]Quoted post[/post]​

and I personally think and wish that you could be the ACM of PAF.

Miro

 

[Tiger Shark]

Be Serious my Brother Read This

The Bison will be on rather short legs carrying 2xR-73 and 2xR-77. If it carries extra tanks it will have to sacrifice either it's WVR or the BWR capability. Basically the Bison has an edge at long range due to the R-77 but the F-7PG is more maneuverable with its double delta wing. Also the WP-13 is a newer engine than the R-25 and even if it is based on an old design and it supposedly benefits from modern technology to make it more fuel efficient so the F-7PG at least should have an edge as soon as the engagement degenerates into a dogfight. That aside this is a rather unikely comparisons. Both aircraft are point defense fighters designed to go after enemy strikers and should be fairly unlikely to run into each other. A more likely scenario would be Bisons vs. the PAF's upgraded Mirages or F-7PG's vs. say.. Indian Jaguars wouldn't it? This is of course a gross oversimplification. There are many more factors in an airbattle than just sensor range, endurance, missile range and maneuverability

 

[miroslav]

Originally posted by happybirthdaytoyou@Nov 22 2005, 05:32 PM
Be Serious my Brother Read This

The Bison will be on rather short legs carrying 2xR-73 and 2xR-77. If it carries extra tanks it will have to sacrifice either it's WVR or the BWR capability. Basically the Bison has an edge at long range due to the R-77 but the F-7PG is more maneuverable with its double delta wing. Also the WP-13 is a newer engine than the R-25 and even if it is based on an old design and it supposedly benefits from modern technology to make it more fuel efficient so the F-7PG at least should have an edge as soon as the engagement degenerates into a dogfight. That aside this is a rather unikely comparisons. Both aircraft are point defense fighters designed to go after enemy strikers and should be fairly unlikely to run into each other. A more likely scenario would be Bisons vs. the PAF's upgraded Mirages or F-7PG's vs. say.. Indian Jaguars wouldn't it? This is of course a gross oversimplification. There are many more factors in an airbattle than just sensor range, endurance, missile range and maneuverability

[post=3442]Quoted post[/post]​

MiG-21's are basically intercepters.

in IAF they will be covering the asses of MiG-21/23/27 and JAGS when they go for bombing.

MiG-21 will not go for any air fights. Fulcrums will handle that headeache.

Where as due to lack of Aircrafts F-7 has to play every kind of role since the aircrafts like F-16 will be engaged with Fulcrums/Vajra's and Flankers.

Thats the whole point.

Thanks,

Miro

 

[Tiger Shark]

The IAF doctrine is to maintain offensive over enemy airspace, not to allow the fight to reach India. To implement this doctrine the IAF has a huge component of strike aircraft, much larger than the air defence fleet. As savage-rabbit pointed out the IAF MiG-27s and Jaguars are hoing to face opposition from PAF which is in nature a defensive airforce. Strike aircraft will have to be escorted, and there are not too many AD fighters around to do this. Expect Bisons to be embeded with the strike packages. BTW all reports indicate that the Bison radar has a superb performance.

No doubt MiGs are shortlegged, but in India/Pakistan all airbases are situated very close to the border, arrayed against each other. But still PAF will have an advantage as far as endurance is concerned since they are fighting over their soil.

 

[Tiger Shark]

The PAF seems to be planning to use the F-7PG in the point defense role much the same as the Vietnamese used the MiG-21 against the US. during the Indochina war, ie. for ambush/hit-and-run attacks on Indian strikers operating inside Pakistan and the MiG-21Bison with it's limited endurance is not exactly the prime choice for escorting strikers deep into Pakistani territory is it? In fact I would be surprised if either air force regards the F-7 or MiG-21 as more than a stop gap to keep pilots current on an aircraft with reasonably modern electroincs, sensors and weapons pending delivery of something better.

 

[Owais]

I heard that F-7p/PG are for ground support, they are not actually air superiority fighter.
If we compare PAF vs IAF, Then;
MiG-21(limited BVR) vs F-7(lacks BVR) , Mirage-2000 vs F-16 , MiG-23 vs Mirage III, Jaguar vs Mirage V , MiG-27 vs A-5. but we still got MiG-29 Fulcrum and Su-30MkI Flanker to counter. whatever is left of the PAF after combat. PAF need new fighters immediately like JSF, JF17,F-16, F7MG and possibaly EUFTyphoon.

 

[miroslav]

Originally posted by Viper Z@Nov 22 2005, 06:16 PM
I heard that F-7p/PG are for ground support, they are not actually air superiority fighter.
If we compare PAF vs IAF, Then;
MiG-21(limited BVR) vs F-7(lacks BVR) , Mirage-2000 vs F-16 , MiG-23 vs Mirage III, Jaguar vs Mirage V , MiG-27 vs A-5. but we still got MiG-29 Fulcrum and Su-30MkI Flanker to counter. whatever is left of the PAF after combat. PAF need new fighters immediately like JSF, JF17,F-16, F7MG and possibaly EUFTyphoon.

[post=3446]Quoted post[/post]​

MiG-27 and A-5's are never gonna fight with anyone. Both are bombers and their primary objective is ground attack.

Thanks,

Miro