F-60 / J-31 stealth fighter aircraft for Pakistan Air Force?

[That Guy]

funny.. j 20 is not even close to raptor..in stealthy characteristics. . am not sure if you have radors on your eyes to calculate rcs of fighter jet.. Russians have years of experience in making of jets and chinese just fopied their tech...Russians engineers are not stupids .

Of course Russian engineers aren't stupid, but like I said before it comes down to philosophy. The Russians just don't see the need to having the same level of stealth as the US F-22 raptor, which is why a better comparison is the F-15SE, which would have similar stealth capability as the PAKFA, if not slightly inferior.

Also, like you mentioned, it's hard to say if the J-20 is superior, because the Chinese don't have as much experience building advanced fighters as the Russians and Americans do, but considering that if they even stole the technology from the Americans and presumably from Russia's Mig 1.44 project, we can safely say it's at a level that we can say it is on par with or is superior to Russia's PAKFA in terms of stealth, because there is little to no doubt that they used both examples to build the J-20, and perhaps even project 310.

 

[Bhasad Singh Mundi]

The news coming out of IAF posted on open sources and part of a thread states that IAF itself is not happy with PAKFA. Now you did not refute your own AF but if someone else says it it is a problem. Please have some standards on the basis of which you make your accusation.
Araz

Why would I refute IAF ? its brave to openly acknowledge that there are faults unlike some other AF. But how does that prove superiority of J20 by any standard is beyond me?

we can safely say it's at a level that we can say it is on par with or is superior to Russia's PAKFA in terms of stealth, because there is little to no doubt that they used both examples to build the J-20, and perhaps even project 310.

So your are saying that a plane built on allegedly stolen technology by ppl with no past experience is superior to a plane built on decades of experience and past experience in experimental 5th gen tech?

 

[Viper0011.]

funny.. j 20 is not even close to raptor..in stealthy characteristics. . am not sure if you have radors on your eyes to calculate rcs of fighter jet.. Russians have years of experience in making of jets and chinese just fopied their tech...Russians engineers are not stupids .

So I ticked you guys off because PakFa would become an Indian plane and only God knows, the Indian people or their products can't have anything missing and they are better than everything else? Common guys, when does the blind patriotism become common sense? Wish to see sense taking over important discussions.
Read my post three times and then read your responses. I think you sound like a smart guy, you'll see disproportional responses to a credible fact based discussion.
I never said J-20 is on par with the Raptor. Let's make sure we are on the same page. There is NOTHING on par with the Raptor at this time in the entire world or all the way till 2025. J-20, however will be second to the Raptor and the JSF (although J-20 is STILL inferior to the Raptor).
Now when I say SECOND to the Raptor and the JSF, that's coming from analyzing other Stealth projects around the world. The J-20 is based on very modern Western stolen tech. Like the F-22 and the JSF, it is ALSO based on a brand new airframe with many sensitive techs and capabilities. Russians are smart people, no doubt about it. But they also produce planes with certain things in mind, the use of nano-tech is barely there in their Jet manufacturing. If you just take a look at their top line jet cockpits just 5-7 years ago vs. a Western top line jet's cockpit from 10 years ago, you'll understand what I am saying here.
So I am more than positive that the PakFa is a very potent plane and it'll probably have super low RCS, enough to consider it "Stealthy", but its SU based airframes come with their own issues by design and you couldn't make a "Stealth" plane out of that.
Remember, Stealth and Stealthy are two VERY different things. So back to what I was saying, the Raptor and the JSF will rule the skies around the world. The J-20 will be the second thing to them and then the PakFa, and then the Japanese or Korean stealthy planes.

 

[That Guy]

Why would I refute IAF ? its brave to openly acknowledge that there are faults unlike some other AF. But how does that prove superiority of J20 by any standard is beyond me?



So your are saying that a plane built on allegedly stolen technology by ppl with no past experience is superior to a plane built on decades of experience and past experience in experimental 5th gen tech?

No, but when the technology that is used is built on decades of experience, you can be sure that even at the hands of new developers, it will be extremely potent.

Besides, it's not news that the PAKFA is has given up true stealth for it's greater maneuverability. It doesn't make the PAKFA a worse fighter, but like I said, it's built with a different philosophy in mind. Only time will tell who is right and who's wrong.

 

[araz]

[quotex"Bhasad Singh Mundi, post: 5366142, member: 154534"]Why would I refute IAF ? its brave to openly acknowledge that there are faults unlike some other AF. But how does that prove superiority of J20 by any standard is beyond me?



So your are saying that a plane built on allegedly stolen technology by ppl with no past experience is superior to a plane built on decades of experience and past experience in experimental 5th gen tech?[/quote]
What experience do the russians have for us to believe that they can build a fifth generation plane going by their products. This logic means that you cant progress from one to another generation. Or did the martians help the US with their F117. People indulge in research and judicious helpings of industrial espionage to achieve their aims and objectives. I dont think currently any other power can match the Chinese and the US in R&D funding. As to J20 s capabilities no one really knows what the Chinese have achieved to date as no specs have been announced. We are all making guesses. However one of Autangzeb's eatlier post shed some light on tbe matter and you should refer to it.
Araz

 

[That Guy]

[quotex"Bhasad Singh Mundi, post: 5366142, member: 154534"]Why would I refute IAF ? its brave to openly acknowledge that there are faults unlike some other AF. But how does that prove superiority of J20 by any standard is beyond me?



So your are saying that a plane built on allegedly stolen technology by ppl with no past experience is superior to a plane built on decades of experience and past experience in experimental 5th gen tech?

What experience do the russians have for us to believe that they can build a fifth generation plane going by their products. This logic means that you cant progress from one to another generation. Or did the martians help the US with their F117. People indulge in research and judicious helpings of industrial espionage to achieve their aims and objectives. I dont think currently any other power can match the Chinese and the US in R&D funding. As to J20 s capabilities no one really knows what the Chinese have achieved to date as no specs have been announced. We are all making guesses. However one of Autangzeb's eatlier post shed some light on tbe matter and you should refer to it.
Araz[/quote]
Couldn't have put it better myself.

 

[Bhasad Singh Mundi]

What experience do the russians have for us to believe that they can build a fifth generation plane going by their products. This logic means that you cant progress from one to another generation. Or did the martians help the US with their F117. People indulge in research and judicious helpings of industrial espionage to achieve their aims and objectives. I dont think currently any other power can match the Chinese and the US in R&D funding. As to J20 s capabilities no one really knows what the Chinese have achieved to date as no specs have been announced. We are all making guesses. However one of Autangzeb's eatlier post shed some light on tbe matter and you should refer to it.
Araz

What can I say for the bold part. As far as making guesses is concerned I prefer to base my guess on decades of aerospace experience and capabilities of concerned program. Unlike China, both USA and Russia have extensive R&D experience of stealth tech that dates back to 70s and both of them had stealth technology demonstration programs (USA: XST, HAve Blue etc. Mig sukhoi had their own) that did all the necessary ground work for future operational stealth fighters.

 

[danger007]

No, but when the technology that is used is built on decades of experience, you can be sure that even at the hands of new developers, it will be extremely potent.

Besides, it's not news that the PAKFA is has given up true stealth for it's greater maneuverability. It doesn't make the PAKFA a worse fighter, but like I said, it's built with a different philosophy in mind. Only time will tell who is right and who's wrong.

yeah you are right... but stolen technology doesn't necessarily give you 100% solution for every complex problem, it comes with decades of experience. .. unlike 4th gen jets 5th gen comes with very very complicated complex problems. .. we can only see outside structure of j 20 or pak fa.. but not internal design... it is easy to downplay any thing. .. silly you grouping j 20 along with raptor and pak fa with 4++gen jet.... that shows ego to accept facts...

 

[That Guy]

yeah you are right... but stolen technology doesn't necessarily give you 100% solution for every complex problem, it comes with decades of experience. .. unlike 4th gen jets 5th gen comes with very very complicated complex problems. .. we can only see outside structure of j 20 or pak fa.. but not internal design... it is easy to downplay any thing. .. silly you grouping j 20 along with raptor and pak fa with 4++gen jet.... that shows ego to accept facts...

I'm not lumping them together, nor does my ego come into this (I don't know where you're getting this idea from). If you bothered to actually read my comment, it mentions philosophy, and comparing such generations is completely valid. If an older plane offers the similar or same capability, then the comparison holds. So it seems to me that I'm not the one rejecting facts here.

You said it yourself, we don't know the insides of the fighters, so all we can do is base our opinion on what information we do have.

 

[danger007]

I'm not lumping them together, nor does my ego come into this (I don't know where you're getting this idea from). If you bothered to actually read my comment, it mentions philosophy, and comparing such generations is completely valid. If an older plane offers the similar or same capability, then the comparison holds. So it seems to me that I'm not the one rejecting facts here.

You said it yourself, we don't know the insides of the fighters, so all we can do is base our opinion on what information we do have.

The question is neither India nor Russia interested to counter F-15SE.... that is not the proper answer..... how come the stolen technology gives you leap over the decades of experience... Russians does have tested 5the gen techn before..whereas chinese started their work recently... many people in this forum especially chinese members...started claiming j-20 will come to production by 2016 - 2017 blah blah.. common guys it is not toy...

Give me the specifications how the Pak fa is comparable to only F-15 and inferior to J-20...

 

[That Guy]

The question is neither India nor Russia interested to counter F-15SE.... that is not the proper answer..... how come the stolen technology gives you leap over the decades of experience... Russians does have tested 5the gen techn before..whereas chinese started their work recently... many people in this forum especially chinese members...started claiming j-20 will come to production by 2016 - 2017 blah blah.. common guys it is not toy...

Give me the specifications how the Pak fa is comparable to only F-15 and inferior to J-20...

A stolen gun is the same as a gun bought from a store legally, especially when it comes to a fire fight. No knowledgeable Chinese member on the forums has said that the fighter will come into production by 2016-17, but after 2017. Of course the fighter isn't a toy, but considering the startlingly fast progress the Chinese are making, we can't ever be sure how close they are to actually putting the plane into production.

I never said the PAK-FA was inferior to the J-20, I said it has compromised it's stealth for maneuverability, and it's stealth may be closely compared to the F-15SE than the J-20 or F-22 (comparing isn't the same as saying they're equal, you can compare the F-14 Tomcat and the F-15 Eagle, don't that doesn't mean they're equal. The PAK-FA would easily be able to blow the F-15SE out of the sky).

Okay, let's for a second forget the J-20. Let's pretend it doesn't exist, now which is more stealthy the PAK-FA or the F-22? Which is more maneuverable, the PAK-FA or the F-22? Which has a bigger payload, the PAK-FA or the F-22? Why, why, why?

If you can answer these question honestly, you'll realize that it's not a matter of superiority, but a matter of the philosophy of the developers of the fighters.

 

[danger007]

A stolen gun is the same as a gun bought from a store legally, especially when it comes to a fire fight. No knowledgeable Chinese member on the forums has said that the fighter will come into production by 2016-17, but after 2017. Of course the fighter isn't a toy, but considering the startlingly fast progress the Chinese are making, we can't ever be sure how close they are to actually putting the plane into production.

I never said the PAK-FA was inferior to the J-20, I said it has compromised it's stealth for maneuverability, and it's stealth may be closely compared to the F-15SE than the J-20 or F-22 (comparing isn't the same as saying they're equal, you can compare the F-14 Tomcat and the F-15 Eagle, don't that doesn't mean they're equal. The PAK-FA would easily be able to blow the F-15SE out of the sky).

Okay, let's for a second forget the J-20. Let's pretend it doesn't exist, now which is more stealthy the PAK-FA or the F-22? Which is more maneuverable, the PAK-FA or the F-22? Which has a bigger payload, the PAK-FA or the F-22? Why, why, why?

If you can answer these question honestly, you'll realize that it's not a matter of superiority, but a matter of the philosophy of the developers of the fighters.

Stolen gun is different from the gun made by the stolen technology... I just don't want to take sides.... as well i don't want to downplay any one the projects under development... let both babies roll out ... then we can discuss which one is superior to other ...

it will be my pleasure if you share the specification of J-31 or J-20....

 

[That Guy]

Stolen gun is different from the gun made by the stolen technology... I just don't want to take sides.... as well i don't want to downplay any one the projects under development... let both babies roll out ... then we can discuss which one is superior to other ...

But like I said, it's not downplaying or trying to say which is superior. All the information we've gotten from them suggest all three are using different philosophies and potential scenarios to build their fighters, thus one plane may exceed in one area but suffer in another. They all offer capabilities that their armed forces need, and that should be good enough, there is no need to compare them to say which is superior, because their purposes are different.

 

[Viper 94]

why ? its written in our constitution that pakistan will never buy twin engine jets and Qaid e Azam told us too ?

Bull shit
there is nothing in the constitution that says
that PAF will not operate twin engine fighters
also why would Quid e Azam say that it doesnt make any sense

 

[SQ8]

Stolen gun is different from the gun made by the stolen technology... I just don't want to take sides.... as well i don't want to downplay any one the projects under development... let both babies roll out ... then we can discuss which one is superior to other ...

it will be my pleasure if you share the specification of J-31 or J-20....

Can you share the specification of the RQ-180?