F-60 / J-31 stealth fighter aircraft for Pakistan Air Force?

[rockstar08]

i think j10's are the only suitable option available to paf from 2014-2018

 

[Fahad Khan 2]

PAF should go in similar project with China like JF-17 but pakistan had some expertise in 4 generation aircraft which is not in case of 5 generation... So in end we will end up in buying some stealth fighter... That also maybe we will see in after 2020 because PAF has cleared that our will play with 4th and 4.5+ till 2018...

 

[nomi007]

 

[jarves]

@nomi007 Why you are posting things in Chinese which nobody will understand??

Are you trying to keep the thread alive??

 

[Viper0011.]

All one needs to do is look at the F-15SE. It went from an air superiority fighter to a "stealth" fighter which is trying to compete with the likes of F-22 and F-35 as a cheaper (MUCH cheaper alternative).

The problem with converting a plane from a non-stealth to a stealth is that it can never be as truly stealthy as a plane that was built from the ground up to be a stealth fighter. The conversion process can also hinder it's payload capability; Where you would be able to carry multiple bombs and missiles before, you now have a much less payload because of the price you have to pay to keep the plane as stealthy as possible (i.e, internal storage, removal of external hardpoints, even lowering of the amount of fuel)

1) You are correct. Semi Stealth and "Stealth" as in F-22 are two very different things. F-15 SE is really a good match for the T-50 / PakFa type of jets. The problem is their airframes, the F-15 and the SU series (which PakFa / T-150 are based off of), by design can not be true Stealth jets. They'll offer reduced RCS, to a degree where it is undetectable at certain flight envelop from a height and speed's standpoint.
For many buyers, that's just good enough. For rich countries like the US, Japan, etc, they want the true capability like the F-22 provides.

2) Just as a reminder, the F-22 was really designed based on the F-15. After studying its performance, flight profiles, agility, etc, etc.....then F-22 was born. But there was no option to modify the airframe as a true Stealth has a LOT more sensitive stuff, from surface to electronics than just RAM quoting and smooth, curvy surface. It is surprising to see the Chinese J-20. Besides the disposition, nozzles and openness of its engines (which will be fixed later to avoid giving heat signature out?), it seems as they took the F-22's tech and created a whole new plane. However, the Russians decided to use their SU series airframes and modified it. That's why I think in the next 5 years, the TRUE stealth (Tier 1) will be the F-22, F-35 (if it can keep weapons inside) and the J-20. The tier II would include the PakFa, F-15SE, J-31 and a couple of others from Korea and Japan IMO.

 

[danger007]

1) You are correct. Semi Stealth and "Stealth" as in F-22 are two very different things. F-15 SE is really a good match for the T-50 / PakFa type of jets. The problem is their airframes, the F-15 and the SU series (which PakFa / T-150 are based off of), by design can not be true Stealth jets. They'll offer reduced RCS, to a degree where it is undetectable at certain flight envelop from a height and speed's standpoint.
For many buyers, that's just good enough. For rich countries like the US, Japan, etc, they want the true capability like the F-22 provides.

2) Just as a reminder, the F-22 was really designed based on the F-15. After studying its performance, flight profiles, agility, etc, etc.....then F-22 was born. But there was no option to modify the airframe as a true Stealth has a LOT more sensitive stuff, from surface to electronics than just RAM quoting and smooth, curvy surface. It is surprising to see the Chinese J-20. Besides the disposition, nozzles and openness of its engines (which will be fixed later to avoid giving heat signature out?), it seems as they took the F-22's tech and created a whole new plane. However, the Russians decided to use their SU series airframes and modified it. That's why I think in the next 5 years, the TRUE stealth (Tier 1) will be the F-22, F-35 (if it can keep weapons inside) and the J-20. The tier II would include the PakFa, F-15SE, J-31 and a couple of others from Korea and Japan IMO.

wow great.. simply you are down grading Russian capabilities and hyping chinese... F 22 is fully operational bird.. other than leaked info J 20 specifications unknown. . neither Pak fa...

 

[Bhasad Singh Mundi]

1) You are correct. Semi Stealth and "Stealth" as in F-22 are two very different things. F-15 SE is really a good match for the T-50 / PakFa type of jets. The problem is their airframes, the F-15 and the SU series (which PakFa / T-150 are based off of), by design can not be true Stealth jets. They'll offer reduced RCS, to a degree where it is undetectable at certain flight envelop from a height and speed's standpoint.
For many buyers, that's just good enough. For rich countries like the US, Japan, etc, they want the true capability like the F-22 provides.

2) Just as a reminder, the F-22 was really designed based on the F-15. After studying its performance, flight profiles, agility, etc, etc.....then F-22 was born. But there was no option to modify the airframe as a true Stealth has a LOT more sensitive stuff, from surface to electronics than just RAM quoting and smooth, curvy surface. It is surprising to see the Chinese J-20. Besides the disposition, nozzles and openness of its engines (which will be fixed later to avoid giving heat signature out?), it seems as they took the F-22's tech and created a whole new plane. However, the Russians decided to use their SU series airframes and modified it. That's why I think in the next 5 years, the TRUE stealth (Tier 1) will be the F-22, F-35 (if it can keep weapons inside) and the J-20. The tier II would include the PakFa, F-15SE, J-31 and a couple of others from Korea and Japan IMO.

Bolne mein kya jata hai mamu.....

wow great.. simply you are down grading Russian capabilities and hyping chinese... F 22 is fully operational bird.. other than leaked info J 20 specifications unknown. . neither Pak fa...

Bolne mein kya jata hai mamu.....data lane ko bolo to uran chu..........

 

[nomi007]

@nomi007 Why you are posting things in Chinese which nobody will understand??

Are you trying to keep the thread alive??

没有亲爱的

 

[That Guy]

wow great.. simply you are down grading Russian capabilities and hyping chinese... F 22 is fully operational bird.. other than leaked info J 20 specifications unknown. . neither Pak fa...

He's not downgrading the PAKFA's capabilities, but it is not news that the Russian plane has compromised stealth for it's agility capabilities. This is where the PAKFA will shine, and outperform the F-22 and the J-20, that being said, the F-22 and the J-20 (which is taking a lot of queues from the US 5th gens) will have better stealth, but will compromise on their agility and air superiority capabilities. The PAKFA was built to own the skies and pave the way for Russia's ground attack systems, but with some multirole capabilities. Where as the F-22 is a multirole platform, built to take on any role it's forced into; and the J-20 will primarily be ground attack with some multirole capabilities, built to get into enemy territory undetected, take out it's targets, and get out before the enemy air force gets a chance to even get into the air (i.e Taiwan and Japan).

They're built with different philosophies in mind, so comparing them is (in my opinion) foolish at this point, as none of them (not even the F-22) have ever been used in actual combat. Only time will tell who's right and who's wrong, but let's hope it never comes to that.

 

[Viper0011.]

wow great.. simply you are down grading Russian capabilities and hyping chinese... F 22 is fully operational bird.. other than leaked info J 20 specifications unknown. . neither Pak fa...

I am a proud American. Trust me, I would be the last one to hype up the Chinese products. But I also like to say how it is. Sad part is, the Chinese stole sensitive 5th gen designs. I think you can google it and read up on it. Its public information and the Chinese members say it often on different forums. So, the knowledge about the 5th gen is again (and unfortunately) the top class based on the best of the best Western tech.
Russia on the other hand, is using its SU airframes for this. Which will make the plane agile, fast and semi stealthy with RAM on it, but weapons load and other airframe related issues will make it less ''stealthy'' if you will. But again, for many countries, that level of Semi Stealth may be much better than a super expensive F-22 type of a plane. For example, if India uses them against the Chinese, you won't need a true stealth as the mountainous region between you and the Chinese will itself be good enough to cause clutter at higher altitudes and thus creating a full stealthy environment for the PakFa.
Against the Pakistanis, it would still be very good as they don't have anything Stealth (or yet at the least). So please, try to read my post before just jumping up and down. I don't take sides. I just say the right thing without bias.

 

[danger007]

I am a proud American. Trust me, I would be the last one to hype up the Chinese products. But I also like to say how it is. Sad part is, the Chinese stole sensitive 5th gen designs. I think you can google it and read up on it. Its public information and the Chinese members say it often on different forums. So, the knowledge about the 5th gen is again (and unfortunately) the top class based on the best of the best Western tech.
Russia on the other hand, is using its SU airframes for this. Which will make the plane agile, fast and semi stealthy with RAM on it, but weapons load and other airframe related issues will make it less ''stealthy'' if you will. But again, for many countries, that level of Semi Stealth may be much better than a super expensive F-22 type of a plane. For example, if India uses them against the Chinese, you won't need a true stealth as the mountainous region between you and the Chinese will itself be good enough to cause clutter at higher altitudes and thus creating a full stealthy environment for the PakFa.
Against the Pakistanis, it would still be very good as they don't have anything Stealth (or yet at the least). So please, try to read my post before just jumping up and down. I don't take sides. I just say the right thing without bias.

I am a proud American. Trust me, I would be the last one to hype up the Chinese products. But I also like to say how it is. Sad part is, the Chinese stole sensitive 5th gen designs. I think you can google it and read up on it. Its public information and the Chinese members say it often on different forums. So, the knowledge about the 5th gen is again (and unfortunately) the top class based on the best of the best Western tech.
Russia on the other hand, is using its SU airframes for this. Which will make the plane agile, fast and semi stealthy with RAM on it, but weapons load and other airframe related issues will make it less ''stealthy'' if you will. But again, for many countries, that level of Semi Stealth may be much better than a super expensive F-22 type of a plane. For example, if India uses them against the Chinese, you won't need a true stealth as the mountainous region between you and the Chinese will itself be good enough to cause clutter at higher altitudes and thus creating a full stealthy environment for the PakFa.
Against the Pakistanis, it would still be very good as they don't have anything Stealth (or yet at the least). So please, try to read my post before just jumping up and down. I don't take sides. I just say the right thing without bias.

am not questioning about your nationality, it is none of concern.. all am talking is about you are classifying pak fa with f 15 se.. which is 4.5 gen jet ... and adding j 20 with raptor... apart Raptor both of this two jets are still in developing phase , forget about full specifications. . there is long road for j 20 of j 31 or pak fa... as well china is lag behind the jet engine technology. .. may be I don't degrade foe capabilities when I don’t have idea...

 

[Viper0011.]

all am talking is about you are classifying pak fa with f 15 se.. which is 4.5 gen jet ... and adding j 20 with raptor... apart Raptor both of this two jets are still in developing phase , forget about full specifications. . there is long road for j 20 of j 31 or pak fa... as well china is lag behind the jet engine technology. .. may be I don't degrade foe capabilities when I don’t have idea...

Take a look at F-15 SE's background.... and then take a look at the PakFa..many similarities from an engine and airframe's standpoint. Both have 5th gen electronics and tweaked sonic cruise capability. But....both are STILL based on 4.5 gen foundation, i.e. the airframes.
Both Raptor (operational) and J-20 (even still in design) represent a leap over F-15 SE or the PakFa. If you don't want to admit reality, its up to you. If the F-15 SE was that potent to compare with the F-22, trust me, you'd be seeing hundreds of orders already inked. Similarly, if the PakFa was really as true stealth and advanced as other major competition, you'd have seen about a dozen Russian allies putting advanced purchase orders on it. But nope. That's not the case. As far as the J-20 is concerned, the engine issue is a whole different discussion but doesn't jeopardize its operational capability if they keep using AL-31 engines. Engine has nothing to do with its stealth or advanced technology related characteristics, as long as the engine can provide the thrust the jet requires. J-20 is based on the Western tech as its known, stolen tech at that. But PakFa is a traditional Russian design with stealthy features.

 

[danger007]

Take a look at F-15 SE's background.... and then take a look at the PakFa..many similarities from an engine and airframe's standpoint. Both have 5th gen electronics and tweaked sonic cruise capability. But....both are STILL based on 4.5 gen foundation, i.e. the airframes.
Both Raptor (operational) and J-20 (even still in design) represent a leap over F-15 SE or the PakFa. If you don't want to admit reality, its up to you. If the F-15 SE was that potent to compare with the F-22, trust me, you'd be seeing hundreds of orders already inked. Similarly, if the PakFa was really as true stealth and advanced as other major competition, you'd have seen about a dozen Russian allies putting advanced purchase orders on it. But nope. That's not the case. As far as the J-20 is concerned, the engine issue is a whole different discussion but doesn't jeopardize its operational capability if they keep using AL-31 engines. Engine has nothing to do with its stealth or advanced technology related characteristics, as long as the engine can provide the thrust the jet requires. J-20 is based on the Western tech as its known, stolen tech at that. But PakFa is a traditional Russian design with stealthy features.

funny.. j 20 is not even close to raptor..in stealthy characteristics. . am not sure if you have radors on your eyes to calculate rcs of fighter jet.. Russians have years of experience in making of jets and chinese just fopied their tech...Russians engineers are not stupids .

 

[Mugwop]

We would have to wait another 6-7 years to get J-31

 

[araz]

Bolne mein kya jata hai mamu..


Bolne mein kya jata hai mamu.....data lane ko bolo to uran chu..........

The news coming out of IAF posted on open sources and part of a thread states that IAF itself is not happy with PAKFA. Now you did not refute your own AF but if someone else says it it is a problem. Please have some standards on the basis of which you make your accusation.
Araz