Donatello
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F-60 / J-31 stealth fighter aircraft for Pakistan Air Force?
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Abingdonboy
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Utter nonsense- you think the Indians would blow $30 BILLION USD for some downgraded export version of the PAK-FA? Did the IAF accept this with the SU-30? Or did the IAF end up operating the most advanced SU-30 variant in service (MKI)?
As with the SU-30MKI the IAF will actually end up with a platform more advanced than the standard Russian PAK-FA/T-50 version in the form of the FGFA which is a "MKIised" version of the PAK-FA/T-50 if you will.
The point that Russia sells downgraded equipment to India and then doesn't induct them itself is utterly moot- IN invests in the Mig-29K:
Russia Signs Contract for Navy MiG-29K Fighter | Defense | RIA Novosti
India shows interest in Mig-35:
Mikoyan expecting Russian MiG-35 order soon
India develops the SU-30MKI package:
Irkut Delivers First Su-30SM Fighters to Russian Air Force | Defense | RIA Novosti
And btw the SM is pretty much an MKI with some Israeli equipment omitted:
Sukhoi Su-30SM: An Indian Gift to Russia
I could go on.
You've got nothing other than your hopes and dreams to base your ramblings on so, unless you have anything other than anecdotal evidence to back your comments up, how about you keep them to yourself?
Abingdonboy
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In 2020 the Indian defence budget will easily be in excess of $150 BN annually any by 2025 it will be $170-190 BN easily.
INDIAISM
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That's what i was saying about Jf17 that Jf17 is degraded and that's the reason why PLAAF is not willing to accept JF17...
And as faar as your other statement is concern then you need to understand the difference between Buisness and Charity...
Genesis
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So in 7 years it increased by about 100 billion and in 5 years it increases by 20 billion?
Wikipedia as evidence... I rest my case.
You can let the Israeli add Israeli stuff in it but that does not make it Indian MKI. I mean, what does India add?
Bangalore, Feb. 8: The Russian bear raged here today.
Viktor Komardin, the head of the Russian delegation to India’s military airshow Aero India, alleged that Delhi has bought aircraft, submarines and weapons from western countries at inflated prices “without military logic”.
Komardin is also the deputy chief of the Russian state arms exporter, Rosoboronexport.
He questioned the financial logic of the Indian government to procure weapons systems from countries that were not as longstanding partners as Russia despite getting no transfer of technology. “Ask your minister of finance. May be he has so much money to spare and India has no social problems,” he responded, barely able to conceal the sarcasm.
Komardin called a group of journalists to a small room in the Russian pavilion here and said his ire was directed against the Indian media that was not accurately reflecting Russia’s “rootedness” in the Indian armed forces. But he said the decisions to buy the Boeing-made C-17 Globemaster and Lockheed Martin-made C-130J Hercules (both US firms) transport aircraft were big mistakes because they were not suited to Indian military needs.
Such decisions are made by the government of India and not by the Indian media.
“It is not fair. Arms sales in military technology projects are now all politics. Billions of dollars are paid for procurements without transfer of technology. It is improper, it is unfair,” Komardin said. “I accept politics but fair should be fair. Russia is a strategic partner of India. We want to be dealt with as partners,” he added.
The angry remarks came even as a team of the Russian Knights, an aerobatic team from Moscow, landed here this afternoon after a three-day delay that a member of his delegation confirmed was caused “by delay in internal security clearance”. The issue was resolved only after Russian ambassador Alexander M. Kadakin requested national security adviser Shiv Shankar Menon to intervene.
A spokesperson for the Russian Knights team said after landing in Bangalore: “We were held up in Delhi for legal issues raised by the government of India and we could come here only because of diplomatic intervention.” The Knights had a similar problem in the UK in December and that was put down to incomplete paperwork by the Russians.
Komardin said India was also buying weapons and equipment from companies and countries that were also selling to Pakistan. The French, he said, had sold Agusta submarines to Pakistan and were selling Scorpene submarines to India. Lockheed Martin had sold Hercules aircraft to both Pakistan and India. Boeing, too, was selling to both Pakistan and India.
“But we do not do it, India does not want us to do it and we are a friend as a friend can be. We do not turn our backs to India.”
Komardin put out figures that are not officially borne out. He alleged India had bought 10 C-17 Globemaster aircraft for $10 billion though the long-haul strategic airlifters did not configure into the Indian military mindset.
“These aircraft are used for trans-Atlantic and transpacific requirements by the US military. What are they? Just big cargo planes. And you overlook the Il-76 that you (India) have been using for 20 years!” he said.
The C-17 contracted by India in 2009 through the Pentagon’s foreign military sales programme cost half the figure of $10 billion that Komardin quoted. The aircraft are bigger than the IL-76 procured from Russia. A C-17 can carry 75 tonnes and an IL-76, loads of 50 tonnes each.
Even as Komardin was railing against the shift in Indian military procurement policies, Boeing was taking another team of Indian journalists in a C-17 on a sortie over Bangalore’s skies to give them a feel of the aircraft.
The C-130J Hercules that the Indian Air Force has procured, he said, cannot accommodate the Russian-supplied Smerch multi-barelled rocket launchers. This would tell on the Indian armed forces’ operational abilities.
An Mi-26 salvages a Chinook helicopter. File picture
Komardin said Russia also thinks the choice of the Boeing-made Chinook helicopter for the IAF’s heavy-lift needs was wrong.
“What is the Chinook compared to (the Russian) Mi-26 (that was also in the competition)? It is a baby. The Mi-26 can lift the Chinook by the neck!” he said.
This is true. About three years ago, a Chinook helicopter of the US forces that went down in Afghanistan was salvaged by a chartered MI-26. Photographs of the MI-26 with the Chinook underslung have since been widely publicised.
The IAF has selected the Chinook for negotiations but the twin-rotor helicopter has not yet been contracted.
Komardin said Russia has $7-billion worth of arms transfer projects with India going currently, compared to the contracts that were signed with other countries. “I am pained that despite this, I find the Russian role in building India’s defence industry diminished,” he said.
Next year, it would be the 50th anniversary since India first signed a licensed production agreement with (the former) Soviet Russia for the MiG 21 FL fighter aircraft. Russia now has more than two dozen licence production agreements going with India. Among the projects are land systems involving tanks and armoured personnel carriers for the army, aircraft such as the Sukhoi 30 MKi for the air force and the Gorshkov carrier for the navy.
Asked about erratic supplies of spares for Russian-origin equipment and delays in deliveries, Komardin fumed that was also the case with other suppliers. He said the French had delayed the delivery of Scorpene submarines to the Indian Navy by three years, as the delivery of the Goshkov carrier has been delayed. “But there is talk in India of imposing penalties on us and not on the French,” he rued.
He said the equipment that India was procuring from Russia’s competitors would not stand the test in harsh conditions in the subcontinent.
“Russian armament is robust for warfighting, not effete. If we will sell you a chair, we will sell you a chair that lasts, not decorate it with foam and leather that will not last,” he said.
Komardin said that unlike its competitors, Russia did not want to publicise its defence deals with India “because we do not believe in disclosing Indian national secrets”.
You can let the Israeli add Israeli stuff in it but that does not make it Indian MKI. I mean, what does India add?
Bangalore, Feb. 8: The Russian bear raged here today.
Viktor Komardin, the head of the Russian delegation to India’s military airshow Aero India, alleged that Delhi has bought aircraft, submarines and weapons from western countries at inflated prices “without military logic”.
Komardin is also the deputy chief of the Russian state arms exporter, Rosoboronexport.
He questioned the financial logic of the Indian government to procure weapons systems from countries that were not as longstanding partners as Russia despite getting no transfer of technology. “Ask your minister of finance. May be he has so much money to spare and India has no social problems,” he responded, barely able to conceal the sarcasm.
Komardin called a group of journalists to a small room in the Russian pavilion here and said his ire was directed against the Indian media that was not accurately reflecting Russia’s “rootedness” in the Indian armed forces. But he said the decisions to buy the Boeing-made C-17 Globemaster and Lockheed Martin-made C-130J Hercules (both US firms) transport aircraft were big mistakes because they were not suited to Indian military needs.
Such decisions are made by the government of India and not by the Indian media.
“It is not fair. Arms sales in military technology projects are now all politics. Billions of dollars are paid for procurements without transfer of technology. It is improper, it is unfair,” Komardin said. “I accept politics but fair should be fair. Russia is a strategic partner of India. We want to be dealt with as partners,” he added.
The angry remarks came even as a team of the Russian Knights, an aerobatic team from Moscow, landed here this afternoon after a three-day delay that a member of his delegation confirmed was caused “by delay in internal security clearance”. The issue was resolved only after Russian ambassador Alexander M. Kadakin requested national security adviser Shiv Shankar Menon to intervene.
A spokesperson for the Russian Knights team said after landing in Bangalore: “We were held up in Delhi for legal issues raised by the government of India and we could come here only because of diplomatic intervention.” The Knights had a similar problem in the UK in December and that was put down to incomplete paperwork by the Russians.
Komardin said India was also buying weapons and equipment from companies and countries that were also selling to Pakistan. The French, he said, had sold Agusta submarines to Pakistan and were selling Scorpene submarines to India. Lockheed Martin had sold Hercules aircraft to both Pakistan and India. Boeing, too, was selling to both Pakistan and India.
“But we do not do it, India does not want us to do it and we are a friend as a friend can be. We do not turn our backs to India.”
Komardin put out figures that are not officially borne out. He alleged India had bought 10 C-17 Globemaster aircraft for $10 billion though the long-haul strategic airlifters did not configure into the Indian military mindset.
“These aircraft are used for trans-Atlantic and transpacific requirements by the US military. What are they? Just big cargo planes. And you overlook the Il-76 that you (India) have been using for 20 years!” he said.
The C-17 contracted by India in 2009 through the Pentagon’s foreign military sales programme cost half the figure of $10 billion that Komardin quoted. The aircraft are bigger than the IL-76 procured from Russia. A C-17 can carry 75 tonnes and an IL-76, loads of 50 tonnes each.
Even as Komardin was railing against the shift in Indian military procurement policies, Boeing was taking another team of Indian journalists in a C-17 on a sortie over Bangalore’s skies to give them a feel of the aircraft.
The C-130J Hercules that the Indian Air Force has procured, he said, cannot accommodate the Russian-supplied Smerch multi-barelled rocket launchers. This would tell on the Indian armed forces’ operational abilities.
An Mi-26 salvages a Chinook helicopter. File picture
Komardin said Russia also thinks the choice of the Boeing-made Chinook helicopter for the IAF’s heavy-lift needs was wrong.
“What is the Chinook compared to (the Russian) Mi-26 (that was also in the competition)? It is a baby. The Mi-26 can lift the Chinook by the neck!” he said.
This is true. About three years ago, a Chinook helicopter of the US forces that went down in Afghanistan was salvaged by a chartered MI-26. Photographs of the MI-26 with the Chinook underslung have since been widely publicised.
The IAF has selected the Chinook for negotiations but the twin-rotor helicopter has not yet been contracted.
Komardin said Russia has $7-billion worth of arms transfer projects with India going currently, compared to the contracts that were signed with other countries. “I am pained that despite this, I find the Russian role in building India’s defence industry diminished,” he said.
Next year, it would be the 50th anniversary since India first signed a licensed production agreement with (the former) Soviet Russia for the MiG 21 FL fighter aircraft. Russia now has more than two dozen licence production agreements going with India. Among the projects are land systems involving tanks and armoured personnel carriers for the army, aircraft such as the Sukhoi 30 MKi for the air force and the Gorshkov carrier for the navy.
Asked about erratic supplies of spares for Russian-origin equipment and delays in deliveries, Komardin fumed that was also the case with other suppliers. He said the French had delayed the delivery of Scorpene submarines to the Indian Navy by three years, as the delivery of the Goshkov carrier has been delayed. “But there is talk in India of imposing penalties on us and not on the French,” he rued.
He said the equipment that India was procuring from Russia’s competitors would not stand the test in harsh conditions in the subcontinent.
“Russian armament is robust for warfighting, not effete. If we will sell you a chair, we will sell you a chair that lasts, not decorate it with foam and leather that will not last,” he said.
Komardin said that unlike its competitors, Russia did not want to publicise its defence deals with India “because we do not believe in disclosing Indian national secrets”.
Storm Force
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Munir
you are TAKING THIS TOPIC way off ITS agenda
THE AGENDA IS TO DISCUSS THE CHINEASE J31 fifth generation FIGHTER and the HOPES & PROSPECTS of PAKISTAN being able to acquire this PLATFORM...in the DISTANT FUTURE
you have zero knowledge of india,s MASSIVE MILITARY DEALS with RUSSIA israel & usa & france. SO WHY BRING THEM INTO THIS AGENDA.
we are CHALLENGING YOU to make good you BRASH CLAIMS about J31
stick to the TOPIC dont concern yourself ABOUT su30mki FGFFA rafale & PHALCON awacs etc.
STICK TO PAF and how and when they are getting this J31
you are TAKING THIS TOPIC way off ITS agenda
THE AGENDA IS TO DISCUSS THE CHINEASE J31 fifth generation FIGHTER and the HOPES & PROSPECTS of PAKISTAN being able to acquire this PLATFORM...in the DISTANT FUTURE
you have zero knowledge of india,s MASSIVE MILITARY DEALS with RUSSIA israel & usa & france. SO WHY BRING THEM INTO THIS AGENDA.
we are CHALLENGING YOU to make good you BRASH CLAIMS about J31
stick to the TOPIC dont concern yourself ABOUT su30mki FGFFA rafale & PHALCON awacs etc.
STICK TO PAF and how and when they are getting this J31
sancho
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Funny how you try so hard to convince yourself from your nonsense. Brahmos degraded? It is based on a Russian missile and got modernised navigations systems and CPUs. The new version under development (Brahmos light and the hypersonic version) are jointly developed by the Brahmos Aero.
Pak Fa that the Russians want by 2015 / 16 is also less capable than the FGFA version we want (or their final version), since it will have the older engines TVC a, it will include less composites and coatings, different avionics, weapons and most likely a different cockpit as well.
We get our own version, jointly developed (unlike MKI) according to our needs and benefit from Russias high techs wrt radar and engine developments, while owning half of the FGFA rights too.
The latter is similar to the deal of Pakistan and China with JF 17, just that China don't want it, since they prefer the J10 with better design, materials, radar, avionics...
So let us be open and honest..., while we get Russians NG techs (that Russia of course procures too), in our own fighter version, with full freedom to customize and operate it according to our needs, you can be happy when you get RD93 today and possibly AL 31s (since Chinces counterparts are still not on par) and that more than a decade later than and still in a less capable version than we use and you really believe that there is no difference in the relation between Russia and India, not only compared to Pakistan, but to any other country???
The ammount delusion is simply hilarious!
S-DUCT
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Brahmos is made for indian requiements not for russian needs, besides it completes requirement of IAF,IN and IA.India's contribution to brahmos is nil,but it helped us to gain expereince in building cruise missile.India's contribution to Hypersonic brahmos will be in scamjet engines(taking help of HSTDV program).See this JV has allowed us to march in hypersonic frontiers.
PLAAF did'nt induct JF-17,so does that means it's degraded.?
We'll get next generation tech form FGFA program that'll come into picture in AMCA program.It'll also make our industry capable of building 5th gen. fighter.
PLA is busy in changing massive force from F6, F7 and A5 into Flankers and J10's... They need range and load. We do need no range cause you are bordering us. Neither do you need huge ordnance when fighting a2a. What would you do? Advise them to go for other priorities? Business or Charity? I call you plain stupid.
Brahmos India... Sure... You guys cannot produce a purza. You cannot assemble second generation fighterjets. You guys cannot even build a basic trainer... Yet you are telling us you make a supersonic weapon... Please start making a reliable bullet.
INDIAISM
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A} That is the same reason why Russia is not procuring Brahmos as Brahmos range is ristricted to 300 Km...Reason MTCR Guideline
B}Ya it will look stupid to you as you don't have any answer for that...
C} Forget about 2nd Gen Jet we are already producing Su 30Mki which is 4th Gen Jet...Not to forget Upgradation of Mig29 and Miraage 2000 will happen in INDIA not in any third country like in the case of PAF s F-16....
D} Ya we can't make trainers like PAC do....
Mushak a copy of Saab Safari
K-8 copy of Hungdu JL-8
So you should be the last person to talk about producing of Purza....
E} Forget about bullets we are already Manufacturing Helicopters,Akash SaM,Destroyers,Frigate,Convertte,BMD,Nuke Submarine,Satellites,Aircraft carrier etc...
sancho
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It's not degraded, but developed according to it's aims, mainly as an export fighter with Pakistan as the prime partner in the development and mainly according to Pakistans requirements. However, that doesn't mean that these would be the same as Chinas requirements and for them the J10/J11 mix with stealth fighters on top and no budget issues, JF17 is simply not needed, since it doesn't add any operational advantage to them.
Zabaniyah
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How do you know that the Brahmos India has is downgraded? I've never heard of a downgraded cruise missile (minus the maximum range of 300 km of-course).
They have access to the best technology the Russians have to provide.
In fact, if you want an Su-35, and pay good, they'll give you all the neat technological features on the thing. No downgrades.
Don't know about the FGFA though. Though related, the PAK-FA and FGFA are two different programs.
This is no longer the Soviet days where people get "monkey models".
The MiG-29K's that India received, and the ones that Russia are going to use are of the same configuration. Though, I heard that the Russian ones would have AESA radar. I think India can fit them in the future for their's.
The link doesn't say anything about India being interested in MiG-35's. What could possibly be the rational if it is so otherwise? Rafale not good enough!? Good God...
That's inconclusive for now. Though I won't be surprised if PLAAF don't induct them in large numbers. They already have the J-10.
They say only trolls quote from Wikipedia.
They say only idiots and stupids keep repeating... And you ask more questions then you provide anything.
No they are not.
2020 for delivery of J-31 to Pakistan, China's closes ally, is not optimistic at all.
There are two reasons why Pakistan will get it at that date:
1. J-20 is the PLAAF only fighter that will have the most cutting edge technology. China would hesitate to even export to Pakistan, lest powers like USA or India gets their hands on the tech one way or another. Think of J-20 being F-22 and J-31 being the F-35.
2. J-31 is being designed specifically for export.
China will give first priority to Pakistan and the J-31 should be ready for service around 2018 or so, so 2020 is very real possibility for Pakistani delivery
And what is this Indian obsession to adding Western technology to a Chinese aircraft in the year 2020 by which time Chinese avionics technology would be cutting edge!!!!!
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