F-60 / J-31 stealth fighter aircraft for Pakistan Air Force?

[MastanKhan]

Everything you've said is based on the assumption that the Pakistan economy is actually quite strong (which it isn't) and the assumption that India won't actually buy 5th gen fighters and won't start replacing the Su-30MKI when they start inducting their 5th gen. Pakistan had hundreds of Mirage fighters, but that meant very little, considering they were old, which the Su-30MKI will be by that time. Remember, Pakistan isn't the only force that is challenging Indian supremacy in the region, China is too. India doesn't consider Pakistan a major threat, the reason why they will start replacing the Su-30MKI is because of China and because if they want to be able to afford to keep the maintenance on the 5th gens, they will have to retire a large amount of the Su-30MKI.

Nothing you've said actually challenges my points with facts, only baseless assumptions.



I don't know about that, certainly Pakistan needs to improve it's R&D, but that doesn't mean that Pakistan shouldn't at least consider the idea of shopping around for a future 5th gen. If Pakistan gets the 5th gen from China, you can bet your behind that they will opt in for at least partial ToT, which will significantly help Pakistan's R&D.

Sir,

Just like in one of your previous posts---you mentioned----you just don't know much----and we concur---so could we please keep it that way.

 

[That Guy]

Sir,

Just like in one of your previous posts---you mentioned----you just don't know much----and we concur---so could we please keep it that way.

Of course we don't know much, but there is a difference between basing our opinions on what we do know, no matter how little, and completely going in the opposite direction with our opinions.

If you want, let's end our conversation here.

 

[IceCold]

You really think we can afford 18 Rafales? Wow.

Will it matter when India will come in with full force?

 

[Storm Force]

YOU GUYS ARE WRONG IF YOU THINK THE FGFA will be inducted to replace the SU30MKI

SU30MKI will be around well into 2040 BUT will have upgraded features MOST OF WHICH will be spin off technology from FGFA and even technology gained from MMRCA rafale this includes internal weapons bays or WEAPOND PODS and much increased compsites materials with fifth gen EW suites/ radars & weapons again from SUKHOIS technology gainmed from PAK FA

The FGFA will enter in very small nos not until 2022 MINIMUM which gives PAF AMPLE time to see how J31 developes.

Very much like USA F22 programme the IAF have much reduced the FGFA nos to 144 planes and 8 sqds only. Even this will take IAF WELL INTO 2030 decade.

THIS THREAD IS VERY PREMATURE FOR PAKISTANIS. The J31 is TOP SECRET chinease project and decade away.

PAK should try and find the resources for the additional F16/52 sqd of 18 planes FIRST
THEN look to find away of buying FC20 with soft loans from china..

BOTH OF THESE ARE REALISTIC and take care of the real threat of the SU30MKI which is gowing rapidly to 160+ fighters already

 

[That Guy]

YOU GUYS ARE WRONG IF YOU THINK THE FGFA will be inducted to replace the SU30MKI

SU30MKI will be around well into 2040 BUT will have upgraded features MOST OF WHICH will be spin off technology from FGFA and even technology gained from MMRCA rafale this includes internal weapons bays or WEAPOND PODS and much increased compsites materials with fifth gen EW suites/ radars & weapons again from SUKHOIS technology gainmed from PAK FA

The FGFA will enter in very small nos not until 2022 MINIMUM which gives PAF AMPLE time to see how J31 developes.

Very much like USA F22 programme the IAF have much reduced the FGFA nos to 144 planes and 8 sqds only. Even this will take IAF WELL INTO 2030 decade.

THIS THREAD IS VERY PREMATURE FOR PAKISTANIS. The J31 is TOP SECRET chinease project and decade away.

PAK should try and find the resources for the additional F16/52 sqd of 18 planes FIRST
THEN look to find away of buying FC20 with soft loans from china..

BOTH OF THESE ARE REALISTIC and take care of the real threat of the SU30MKI which is gowing rapidly to 160+ fighters already

I face palm at this post of yours, most of what you said is non-sense. The FGFA is being made for the purpose of replacing all 4-4.5 the IAF has, because by 2040, 4 and 4.5 gen will become obsolete.

The reason why the F-22 only numbers in in 180s is because of budget cuts to the program, in order to save money and help reduce the deficit. The two situations (IAF with FGFA and USAF with F-22) are completely different. India my be cutting back on it's budget, it's very temporary, unlike the US which is looking to cut cost across the board for the next few years.

The J-31 is not a decade away, it is only 5-7 years away. The Chinese have made it very clear that they plan on full production by 2017-2019, and plan to export t by 2020, with the first export orders obviously coming from Pakistan and Central and East-African nations, where China has most influence and whom rely heavily on Chinese imports for their military.

 

[Storm Force]

So while usa and even india cant.afford f22 and.fgfa your telling.us that african countries and pakistan wil.be.inducting a chinease j31 by 2020... are you a.child ... or.a.joker

 

[sancho]

I face palm at this post of yours, most of what you said is non-sense. The FGFA is being made for the purpose of replacing all 4-4.5 the IAF has, because by 2040, 4 and 4.5 gen will become obsolete.

In this case he is right, FGFA will replace Mig 29 and Mirage 2000, which currently will be upgraded and initially was expected to replace 2 x squads of upgraded Mig 27s at first. Since the Mig 27s suffer technical problems, it seems they will be replaced earlier by MKIs, which leaves room for the FGFA to replace the oldest Jaguars as well.
The oldest MKIs in IAF are roughly 10 years old now and will need replacements only from 2035 onwards, while 4th and 4.5th gen fighters like LCA and Rafale are only about to come and will remain in service even longer. So these 3 won't need replacements for quiet some time and have no relation to FGFA at all.

 

[That Guy]

In this case he is right, FGFA will replace Mig 29 and Mirage 2000, which currently will be upgraded and initially was expected to replace 2 x squads of upgraded Mig 27s at first. Since the Mig 27s suffer technical problems, it seems they will be replaced earlier by MKIs, which leaves room for the FGFA to replace the oldest Jaguars as well.
The oldest MKIs in IAF are roughly 10 years old now and will need replacements only from 2035 onwards, while 4th and 4.5th gen fighters like LCA and Rafale are only about to come and will remain in service even longer. So these 3 won't need replacements for quiet some time and have no relation to FGFA at all.

The MKI is only a stop gap measure, it was not bought for any long term goals in mind, it was only bought to be a front line fighter to replace India's aging fleet of Migs and Mirages until the FGFA comes out and starts replacing the MKI as the front line fighter.

I highly doubt that the LCA is gonna go over the 250 mark for the number of air crafts the India will purchase, simply because to me it looks like the LCA project was just an experiment that India conducted to see how far their expertise in the air industry has gone. I easily see it as a means of India to boost it's confidence to start building it's own 5th gen and I don't have any doubt that we will see many things from the LCA be integrated into any 5th gen design that India develops.

As for the Rafale, I think India's gonna abandon the deal, It's already been delayed because of budget cuts, the best view I can give this deal is that India renegotiates the deal in the future and lower their order numbers to at most 150 and at least 50-70.

 

[That Guy]

So while usa and even india cant.afford f22 and.fgfa your telling.us that african countries and pakistan wil.be.inducting a chinease j31 by 2020... are you a.child ... or.a.joker

Don't be rude, India can afford the FGFA and the USA can afford the F-22, they both just have no real use for them right now, which is why they're cutting costs to pay of their respective debts.

The reason why Pakistan and many African nations will be able to afford the J-31 is because 1) It's cost of purchase and maintenance is expected to be much MUCH lower than the FGFA and F-35. 2) Pakistan and many African nations that are allied to China will get it subsidised to them, with Pakistan most likely getting soft loans to buy the planes. In the end, China will benefit, even if it costs them a ton of money. The more nations that rely on China, the less influence the US will have over them. This is similar to how the Soviets won friends in Africa, Latin America and even India, they either gave a ton of military equipment to allied nations, or they simply subsidised them to make it attractive for nations to side with the USSR. This is not the approach the US made until the mid 80s, when they started to play the same game as the soviets, of course, after the fall of the USSR, the US didn't need to do such a thing, because they had already proven their worth.

You call me a child, yet I use logic, and you use nothing but emotions to back your claim.

 

[Storm Force]

China going to subsidence their greatest tech to Pakistan and Africa. Sounds fantasy wish

 

[surya kiran]

Don't be rude, India can afford the FGFA and the USA can afford the F-22, they both just have no real use for them right now, which is why they're cutting costs to pay of their respective debts.

The reason why Pakistan and many African nations will be able to afford the J-31 is because 1) It's cost of purchase and maintenance is expected to be much MUCH lower than the FGFA and F-35. 2) Pakistan and many African nations that are allied to China will get it subsidised to them, with Pakistan most likely getting soft loans to buy the planes. In the end, China will benefit, even if it costs them a ton of money. The more nations that rely on China, the less influence the US will have over them. This is similar to how the Soviets won friends in Africa, Latin America and even India, they either gave a ton of military equipment to allied nations, or they simply subsidised them to make it attractive for nations to side with the USSR. This is not the approach the US made until the mid 80s, when they started to play the same game as the soviets, of course, after the fall of the USSR, the US didn't need to do such a thing, because they had already proven their worth.

You call me a child, yet I use logic, and you use nothing but emotions to back your claim.

Don't you think, the countries will need to go through the learning curve? While, the Chinese may from their end subsidise the end product, there will be a learning curve to be achieved. And this will include moving from trainer style aircraft to fifth generation aircraft. Also, maintenance will require a learning curve. So while the Chinese may be able to keep their end of the bargain, whether the 'allied' partners can do that is a separate question. Ofcourse, this is based on the assumption, that tomorrow the US/French/Russians don't produce a mass produce/transfer an aircraft which may well suit the requirements of the African airforces.

 

[sancho]

The MKI is only a stop gap measure, it was not bought for any long term goals in mind, it was only bought to be a front line fighter to replace India's aging fleet of Migs and Mirages until the FGFA comes out and starts replacing the MKI as the front line fighter.

Whatever makes you happy.

 

[MastanKhan]

I face palm at this post of yours, most of what you said is non-sense. The FGFA is being made for the purpose of replacing all 4-4.5 the IAF has, because by 2040, 4 and 4.5 gen will become obsolete.


Sir,

Being a new member ( not even a month ) you need to be reminded that there are " no face palms " in this discussion as much as you want to disagree. Discuss like a man----agree to disagree---.

Please learn the decorum of the board.

 

[Falcon29]

I'm a little confused, could someone tell me if this F-60 is the Pak Fa project jointly by Russia and Pakistan? Or am I mistaken?

 

[420canada]

I'm a little confused, could someone tell me if this F-60 is the Pak Fa project jointly by Russia and Pakistan? Or am I mistaken?

it is Russian and Indian. the pak-fa was made by Russia and funded by India. j-31 i do not know but i think it is the second stealth fighter jet of china after the j-20.