F-60 / J-31 stealth fighter aircraft for Pakistan Air Force?

[Storm Force]

PAF IS SET UP TO FIGHT A DEFENSIVE WAR ONLY

They are relying on AWACS and GCC AND SAMS to support single engined light weight fighters like JF17 * F16 & F7 to take on much larger multi role platforms like su30mki mig29 & mirage 2000 over pak air space.

THERE STRIKE/OFFENSIVE option is ballistic & cruise missles because they are much cheaper to procure and maintain.

we have discussed numerous times the MERITS of a J11 FLANKERS or rafale type multi rolers but COST IS A EVER CHANGING HANDICAP FOR PAKISTAN for decades it seems

 

[That Guy]

Shouldn't an air force be offensive in nature? In fact, the air force should be the most ruthless and aggressive arm of any military. To win a war, one has to take that war to the enemy.

It depends on your definition of offensive and defensive. A counter-offensive push is, in my opinion, a defensive tactic to put the enemy in at least a stalemate (or at least used to even the odds), which can be used as a potential bargaining chip in any future negotiations. Keeping that in mind, an air force that can keep the enemy's air-defenses from dominating the sky and subsequently push them back in a counter offensive is what a defensive force needs. For that, Pakistan's capabilities with the F-16s, JF-17s and the future procurement of the FC-20 (if Pakistan is even getting the FC-20) are enough to achieve that capability. Even with a 5th gen deployed by the enemy, Pakistan has the capability to effectively complete search and destroy missions, this is especially true if the JF-17 block III is made with stealth capabilities that is rumored to be in development.

Remember, we still don't know how well 5th gen fighters will fair in actual combat. For all their worth, they still haven't actually been deployed to a war zone. If we're to believe that 5th gen fighters are really as difficult to produce and put out in large numbers that many analysts claim they are, than we can extrapolate that Pakistan won't require it until at least 2020, and even. then, India won't have the numbers to effectively use them in any actual air combat.

Of course, this is just me talking out of my backside, I know very little about actual military tactics, let alone how to successfully win air campaigns.

 

[Genesis]

It depends on your definition of offensive and defensive. A counter-offensive push is, in my opinion, a defensive tactic to put the enemy in at least a stalemate (or at least used to even the odds), which can be used as a potential bargaining chip in any future negotiations. Keeping that in mind, an air force that can keep the enemy's air-defenses from dominating the sky and subsequently push them back in a counter offensive is what a defensive force needs. For that, Pakistan's capabilities with the F-16s, JF-17s and the future procurement of the FC-20 (if Pakistan is even getting the FC-20) are enough to achieve that capability. Even with a 5th gen deployed by the enemy, Pakistan has the capability to effectively complete search and destroy missions, this is especially true if the JF-17 block III is made with stealth capabilities that is rumored to be in development.

Remember, we still don't know how well 5th gen fighters will fair in actual combat. For all their worth, they still haven't actually been deployed to a war zone. If we're to believe that 5th gen fighters are really as difficult to produce and put out in large numbers that many analysts claim they are, than we can extrapolate that Pakistan won't require it until at least 2020, and even. then, India won't have the numbers to effectively use them in any actual air combat.

Of course, this is just me talking out of my backside, I know very little about actual military tactics, let alone how to successfully win air campaigns.

2020 is way to early, I predict effective and active use of 5th Gen will come no sooner than 2025 maybe further. Currently the F-35 is not doing great, and even when it finishes it will need time to manufacture and then some more time to be effective and to have an real use. China still needs Engine and there will probably be problems even after the engine, while USSR needs funds and still lots of work to be done. Real some what effective 5th generation force will be probably by 2020-2022, while some more years for it to be exported.

Though US with the F-22 maybe sooner, hard to say.

If truth be told, Pakistan won't truly need 5th gen until about 2030, while 4.5 Gen will serve well.

 

[MastanKhan]

It depends on your definition of offensive and defensive. A counter-offensive push is, in my opinion, a defensive tactic to put the enemy in at least a stalemate (or at least used to even the odds), which can be used as a potential bargaining chip in any future negotiations. Keeping that in mind, an air force that can keep the enemy's air-defenses from dominating the sky and subsequently push them back in a counter offensive is what a defensive force needs. For that, Pakistan's capabilities with the F-16s, JF-17s and the future procurement of the FC-20 (if Pakistan is even getting the FC-20) are enough to achieve that capability. Even with a 5th gen deployed by the enemy, Pakistan has the capability to effectively complete search and destroy missions, this is especially true if the JF-17 block III is made with stealth capabilities that is rumored to be in development.

Remember, we still don't know how well 5th gen fighters will fair in actual combat. For all their worth, they still haven't actually been deployed to a war zone. If we're to believe that 5th gen fighters are really as difficult to produce and put out in large numbers that many analysts claim they are, than we can extrapolate that Pakistan won't require it until at least 2020, and even. then, India won't have the numbers to effectively use them in any actual air combat.

Of course, this is just me talking out of my backside, I know very little about actual military tactics, let alone how to successfully win air campaigns.

Hi,

Thank you going around in circles so many times---the definition of defence that you tried to give in your first para is an offencive approach---. With the aircraft that paf has----it is not going to make much of a difference.

And why is it not----because the mental factor does not come into play---. Indians have already accepted mentally that su 30mki rules the roost----and they are not wrong when it comes to that---twin engine---two operators---a massive radar---a massive load of BVR's or other weapons----all a win win situation.

Secondly----what makes them stronger is the numbers that they have of this aircraft----. So---they are entering a war cautious but fearless---.

OTOH paf is entering this war as an under dog---right from gitgo and knowing about it as well---their mindset being----I will die for my country----which basically is a RUSE FOR FAILURE IN PREPARATION & HIDING INCOMPTENCE.

What pak needs to do is to come up with an air to air BVR that has a better % of kill ratio at a longer distance + an off bore sight missile + an aesa radar for its chinese aircraft.

5th gen aircraft are extremely expensive to manage and maintain----and there is a good chance that the indian air force may not opt for one in the near future either. They maybe humming and hawing about it----but I believe that they are blowing hot air.

Their PRIMARY AIRCRAFT FOR THE NEXT 15 TO 20 YEARS IS THE SU30MKI. That is what pak air force needs to be concerned about.

 

[That Guy]

2020 is way to early, I predict effective and active use of 5th Gen will come no sooner than 2025 maybe further. Currently the F-35 is not doing great, and even when it finishes it will need time to manufacture and then some more time to be effective and to have an real use. China still needs Engine and there will probably be problems even after the engine, while USSR needs funds and still lots of work to be done. Real some what effective 5th generation force will be probably by 2020-2022, while some more years for it to be exported.

Though US with the F-22 maybe sooner, hard to say.

If truth be told, Pakistan won't truly need 5th gen until about 2030, while 4.5 Gen will serve well.

I don't know about that, 2020 is around the time that India start inducting their 5th gen, which is going to raise alarm bells in Islamabad. Once that happens, they'll start shopping around for a 5th gen of their own. I do think that it won't be needed until 2025, but after 2025, 4.5 gens will become obsolete because India will have inducted enough 5 gen air crafts to effectively neutralize Pakistan's air force. Of course, this isn't taking into account that China isn't actively trying to build anti-air weapons and next generation radars to counter any 5th generation air craft that is bound to come out of India, Japan and Russia.

 

[That Guy]

Hi,Thank you going around in circles so many times

No need to be rude, we're just speculating here.

---the definition of defence that you tried to give in your first para is an offencive approach---. With the aircraft that paf has----it is not going to make much of a difference.

I suggest you re-read my comment, I've already said that it's a counter-offensive definition. Counter-offensive relies on first defending your post, and than launching an offensive to reverse of the gains that the enemy has made until status quo ante bellum at the very least is achieved. That way the defending nation, who launched the counter offensive has a bargaining chip, if the counter offensive succeeds. That is defensive in nation.

Have you ever heard the saying, the best defense is a good offense? In this case, it's very true.

And why is it not----because the mental factor does not come into play---. Indians have already accepted mentally that su 30mki rules the roost----and they are not wrong when it comes to that---twin engine---two operators---a massive radar---a massive load of BVR's or other weapons----all a win win situation.

Not quite true, but I see your point.

Secondly----what makes them stronger is the numbers that they have of this aircraft----. So---they are entering a war cautious but fearless---.

I have already mentioned something similar, even though you mean over all air force, I tend to look at it a different way. India no longer is going by the "strength = numbers" approach, the proof of the pudding lies in the fact that India has been pushing ahead and buying up advanced weapons, and have been hording ToTs for a while now. This means that the IAF is far more than PAF, even though the advantage is slight. When they start rolling out their 5th gen in large enough numbers, PAF will have a crisis on it's hands.

OTOH paf is entering this war as an under dog---right from gitgo and knowing about it as well---their mindset being----I will die for my country----which basically is a RUSE FOR FAILURE IN PREPARATION & HIDING INCOMPTENCE.

Do you have evidence of this?

What pak needs to do is to come up with an air to air BVR that has a better % of kill ratio at a longer distance + an off bore sight missile + an aesa radar for its chinese aircraft.

This I can see happening, but there is no current radar that can effectively detect a 5th gen fighter, at least one that other's have made outside of the US.

5th gen aircraft are extremely expensive to manage and maintain----and there is a good chance that the indian air force may not opt for one in the near future either. They maybe humming and hawing about it----but I believe that they are blowing hot air.

I don't know about that, they've thrown a lot of money into the FGFA, they'd be stupid to just pull out, especially since they'd also lose national pride, which is something that no Indian government will allow.

Their PRIMARY AIRCRAFT FOR THE NEXT 15 TO 20 YEARS IS THE SU30MKI. That is what pak air force needs to be concerned about.

First of all (I'm going to repeat myself slightly here), until the time comes that they decide to cancel the deal, we must assume that India is going to buy it's first batch of 5th gens by 2020, which won't really be a threat, but what about after that? What about 2025, 2030, 2035? What happens when India brings in large enough numbers that they make Pakistan's air force look like a bunch of kids playing with toys? Once they start inducting the FGFA, you can bet you behind that they're going to start replacing the Su-30MKI with it.

 

[gambit]

Suggest you lay off the colorful font. The human brain works best when there are polar contrasts: black/white, up/down, right/left, etc...

 

[MastanKhan]

[COLOR="#

Hi,

Thank you for your post----please make up on which side you want to take the stand.

IAF is planning to have 240---270 su30mki's----what is it now---140 as of now and and 100+ ordered. Which would make it an su30mki spearheaded air force. So or the next 15-20 years---it will be their mainstay aircraft.

Investing in pakfa was a natural course for iaf----the difficulties that are being faced by the 5th gen aircraft or the amount of money that is spent on their maintenance will be a matter of consideration of many an air force including Indian air force.

As for he paks pilots ready to die----that is what every one says---I am ready to die for my country---I will die for the cause---interviews of military / air force academy cadets or other pak defence forces personal---it is a common saying---.

Which in real terms means to try to scare the opponent because you don't have enough or you have not prepared enough----. Warriors who are capable don't have to say " I will die for my nation "---. It is already understood----when you cross the line to join.

For those 5th gen fighters coming in 20 + years from now----your answer would be air to air missiles and radars that are advanced enough to find and take out those aircraft---. Our border of incursion is of a limited scale---. You have certain ppoints of interests and to get to those---the opponent will take certain routes----and even if takes un-conventional routes----you still can retaliate.

What would hurt india the most----is EMBARRASSMENT IN FRONT OF THE WORLD COMMUNITY----india has made the world believe that they are something and pakistan can be smashed by them if the world gives it THE NOD---.

Pakistan needs to findways and means to counter that threat---it needs to build up a resource of taking out the pride of iaf in the first three days---and then hold onto its position.

Their only hope now lies in their air to air weapons sytems.

But looking at pakistan----they will be still licking their wounds and crying the same sob story of not having any money----.


Remember my children---ALLAH GIVES IN STRANGE WAYS----just because He did not give you in the ways that you envisioned of does not mean that it did not happen.

9/11 was your get away card---you had the oppurtunity to make something out of yourself---you just had to take advantage of the situation as a nation----but how could you----YOU ARE NOT A NATION----YOU ARE INDETITY LESS PEOPLE----WITH NO DISCIPLINE UNITY OR BELIEF---.

Paks will be crying foe a lack of money and bad leadership 10 years from now----the same sob story continuing.

 

[Munir]

[COLOR="#

Hi,

Thank you for your post----please make up on which side you want to take the stand.

IAF is planning to have 240---270 su30mki's----what is it now---140 as of now and and 100+ ordered. Which would make it an su30mki spearheaded air force. So or the next 15-20 years---it will be their mainstay aircraft.

Investing in pakfa was a natural course for iaf----the difficulties that are being faced by the 5th gen aircraft or the amount of money that is spent on their maintenance will be a matter of consideration of many an air force including Indian air force.

As for he paks pilots ready to die----that is what every one says---I am ready to die for my country---I will die for the cause---interviews of military / air force academy cadets or other pak defence forces personal---it is a common saying---.

Which in real terms means to try to scare the opponent because you don't have enough or you have not prepared enough----. Warriors who are capable don't have to say " I will die for my nation "---. It is already understood----when you cross the line to join.

For those 5th gen fighters coming in 20 + years from now----your answer would be air to air missiles and radars that are advanced enough to find and take out those aircraft---. Our border of incursion is of a limited scale---. You have certain ppoints of interests and to get to those---the opponent will take certain routes----and even if takes un-conventional routes----you still can retaliate.

What would hurt india the most----is EMBARRASSMENT IN FRONT OF THE WORLD COMMUNITY----india has made the world believe that they are something and pakistan can be smashed by them if the world gives it THE NOD---.

Pakistan needs to findways and means to counter that threat---it needs to build up a resource of taking out the pride of iaf in the first three days---and then hold onto its position.

Their only hope now lies in their air to air weapons sytems.

But looking at pakistan----they will be still licking their wounds and crying the same sob story of not having any money----.


Remember my children---ALLAH GIVES IN STRANGE WAYS----just because He did not give you in the ways that you envisioned of does not mean that it did not happen.

9/11 was your get away card---you had the oppurtunity to make something out of yourself---you just had to take advantage of the situation as a nation----but how could you----YOU ARE NOT A NATION----YOU ARE INDETITY LESS PEOPLE----WITH NO DISCIPLINE UNITY OR BELIEF---.

Paks will be crying foe a lack of money and bad leadership 10 years from now----the same sob story continuing.

Did you find time to visit a mental hospital?

 

[Luftwaffe]

Did you find time to visit a mental hospital?

Munir, You should bring convincing dinner to the table. Enemy is never a fool Thunders won't be able to score every time tactics of your enemy would also change. Those same old stories aren't believable all the time that our skies are safe. Instead of trying to insult others share with us something convincing so far there is nothing convincing on your side to say the least. When you keeping bringing in lack of funds and you need to convince people why do you go and check expensive toys in the first place wasting time and money at the same time bad mouthing them [french].

You mentioned about Mirages let me say something every military decision is strategic, had you order M-2000 indians wouldn't be operating them, had you ordered even 18 Rafales indians would have lost it out of mrca along F-16s. It is amazing that an Air Force goes with delegation thrice for mirage 2000 and comes back rejecting and settle for much inferior F-7Ps in 88-89 really is that a strategic decision. Did you know F-1 Mirages were only 16 Years against 6 year old mirage 2000 even by all standards F-1 Mirages were still young and much advance then F-7P and next best thing to M-2000 but PAF did not even considered it this is called pathetic decision making infact not focusing on Market complete absence of minds for the top brass of that time.

 

[ARSENAL6]

Hi,


Bottomline----pak needs to stay away from the 5th gen aircraft and spend a 100 + millions on research of making the PL12 a better missile and pursuing a better quality aesa radar other than ground to air missile systems.

No nation can afford the 5th gen aircraft----they are the slu-ts of the highest order---take your money and leave you hanging in a crunch.

YOU hit the hammer on the nail there. There is no doubt that Pakistan needs to improve with research and Indiginous tech . Pak can not rely on other people

 

[IceCold]

Munir, You should bring convincing dinner to the table. Enemy is never a fool Thunders won't be able to score every time tactics of your enemy would also change. Those same old stories aren't believable all the time that our skies are safe. Instead of trying to insult others share with us something convincing so far there is nothing convincing on your side to say the least. When you keeping bringing in lack of funds and you need to convince people why do you go and check expensive toys in the first place wasting time and money at the same time bath mouthing them [french].

You mentioned about Mirages let me say something every military decision is strategic, had you order M-2000 indians wouldn't be operating them, had you ordered even 18 Rafales indians would have lost it out of mrca along F-16s. It is amazing that an Air Force goes with delegation thrice for mirage 2000 and comes back rejecting and settle for much inferior F-7Ps in 88-89 really is that a strategic decision. Did you know F-1 Mirages were only 16 Years against 6 year old mirage 2000 even by all standards F-1 Mirages were still young and much advance then F-7P and next best thing to M-2000S but PAF did not even considered it this is called pathetic decision making infact not focusing on Market complete absence of minds for the top brass of that time.

Couldn't have said any better. I find it surprising when people come up with this logic where is the money? Jf-17 can do this JF-17 can do that. For everything we have only one answer JF-17. For the love of God open your eyes, don't make JF-17 something which it is not.
And for the question where is the money again you raised very valuable points, why wasted so much money on evaluating only to reject it latter for the much inferior planes. May i add that war is not a cricket match where opponents will play by the rules, an 11 member team will be met by the same. This is war and whether you have the money or not, you got to be prepared because the enemy will come at you with everything he's got.

 

[bc040400065]

Well majority of TT's here have nothing to do then to tell us unknown sources told me this and that. They sometimes act like our pilots are trained by aliens or we have some alien secrect tech.

 

[Munir]

Couldn't have said any better. I find it surprising when people come up with this logic where is the money? Jf-17 can do this JF-17 can do that. For everything we have only one answer JF-17. For the love of God open your eyes, don't make JF-17 something which it is not.
And for the question where is the money again you raised very valuable points, why wasted so much money on evaluating only to reject it latter for the much inferior planes. May i add that war is not a cricket match where opponents will play by the rules, an 11 member team will be met by the same. This is war and whether you have the money or not, you got to be prepared because the enemy will come at you with everything he's got.

You really think we can afford 18 Rafales? Wow.

 

[That Guy]

[COLOR="#

Hi,

Thank you for your post----please make up on which side you want to take the stand.

IAF is planning to have 240---270 su30mki's----what is it now---140 as of now and and 100+ ordered. Which would make it an su30mki spearheaded air force. So or the next 15-20 years---it will be their mainstay aircraft.

Investing in pakfa was a natural course for iaf----the difficulties that are being faced by the 5th gen aircraft or the amount of money that is spent on their maintenance will be a matter of consideration of many an air force including Indian air force.

As for he paks pilots ready to die----that is what every one says---I am ready to die for my country---I will die for the cause---interviews of military / air force academy cadets or other pak defence forces personal---it is a common saying---.

Which in real terms means to try to scare the opponent because you don't have enough or you have not prepared enough----. Warriors who are capable don't have to say " I will die for my nation "---. It is already understood----when you cross the line to join.

For those 5th gen fighters coming in 20 + years from now----your answer would be air to air missiles and radars that are advanced enough to find and take out those aircraft---. Our border of incursion is of a limited scale---. You have certain ppoints of interests and to get to those---the opponent will take certain routes----and even if takes un-conventional routes----you still can retaliate.

What would hurt india the most----is EMBARRASSMENT IN FRONT OF THE WORLD COMMUNITY----india has made the world believe that they are something and pakistan can be smashed by them if the world gives it THE NOD---.

Pakistan needs to findways and means to counter that threat---it needs to build up a resource of taking out the pride of iaf in the first three days---and then hold onto its position.

Their only hope now lies in their air to air weapons sytems.

But looking at pakistan----they will be still licking their wounds and crying the same sob story of not having any money----.


Remember my children---ALLAH GIVES IN STRANGE WAYS----just because He did not give you in the ways that you envisioned of does not mean that it did not happen.

9/11 was your get away card---you had the oppurtunity to make something out of yourself---you just had to take advantage of the situation as a nation----but how could you----YOU ARE NOT A NATION----YOU ARE INDETITY LESS PEOPLE----WITH NO DISCIPLINE UNITY OR BELIEF---.

Paks will be crying foe a lack of money and bad leadership 10 years from now----the same sob story continuing.[/QUOTE]

Everything you've said is based on the assumption that the Pakistan economy is actually quite strong (which it isn't) and the assumption that India won't actually buy 5th gen fighters and won't start replacing the Su-30MKI when they start inducting their 5th gen. Pakistan had hundreds of Mirage fighters, but that meant very little, considering they were old, which the Su-30MKI will be by that time. Remember, Pakistan isn't the only force that is challenging Indian supremacy in the region, China is too. India doesn't consider Pakistan a major threat, the reason why they will start replacing the Su-30MKI is because of China and because if they want to be able to afford to keep the maintenance on the 5th gens, they will have to retire a large amount of the Su-30MKI.

Nothing you've said actually challenges my points with facts, only baseless assumptions.

[quote="ARSENAL6, post: 4162266"]YOU hit the hammer on the nail there. There is no doubt that Pakistan needs to improve with research and Indiginous tech . Pak can not rely on other people

I don't know about that, certainly Pakistan needs to improve it's R&D, but that doesn't mean that Pakistan shouldn't at least consider the idea of shopping around for a future 5th gen. If Pakistan gets the 5th gen from China, you can bet your behind that they will opt in for at least partial ToT, which will significantly help Pakistan's R&D.