F-22s are corroding, need costly fix

[gambit]

Well, duh!

Of course Islamist terrorists will misuse Islam as their justification. Just as Christian terrorists misuse the Bible, or Jewish terrorists misuse the Torah to justify their actions.

Well, duh...!!! Do let us know when a Christian strap on a bomb vest, walk into a market, call out 'Praise The Lord', then detonate hisself.

Let me spell it out, since you don't get it.
Ras said the Republicans would restart F22 production, and I said the F22 needs a major military adversay (e.g. China) since the current bogeyman (i.e. terrorism) ain't gonna cut it.

Yes...Please enlighten me on how this...

Why do you think the 'evil Chinese' mantra is being hyped up?

The hype over terrorism doesn't do much to sustain the military-industrial complex.

...Is TECHNICALLY related to corrosion development and control......Am having a difficult time 'get it'.

 

[Developereo]

Well, duh...!!! Do let us know when a Christian strap on a bomb vest, walk into a market, call out 'Praise The Lord', then detonate hisself.

Sigh, not this again....
We've been through this several times.

The Christian and Jewish extremists don't need to strap bombs on their bodies because their 'holy crusade' is carried out by organized armies -- of the US and Israeli variety.

Am having a difficult time 'get it'.

That comment was in response to this:

The raptor line may be opened again now that the GOP is in power in the house...rust or no rust.

You're welcome.

 

[gambit]

Sigh, not this again....
We've been through this several times.

The Christian and Jewish extremists don't need to strap bombs on their bodies because their 'holy crusade' is carried out by organized armies -- of the US and Israeli variety.

Absolutely not this again......If you would associate the religious aspects of those organized armies with state policies, then there should be issues at all in associating Islam with terrorism.

That comment was in response to this:



You're welcome.

There are STILL no technical relevancy as to the development of corrosion and their controls on the F-22. Do try again. Let me guess, you deem yourself to be above the rules you set down for others regarding deviations from the topic? Of course you do.

 

[Developereo]

Absolutely not this again......If you would associate the religious aspects of those organized armies with state policies, then there should be issues at all in associating Islam with terrorism.

Not sure which part you are having trouble with here.

Christian and Jewish fanatics use religion to justify their terrorism, just as Islamic fanatics use religion to justify theirs.

The only difference is that the former disguise their terrorism as official wars, while the latter use outright terrorism.

There are STILL no technical relevancy as to the development of corrosion and their controls on the F-22. Do try again. Let me guess, you deem yourself to be above the rules you set down for others regarding deviations from the topic? Of course you do.

There is no relevance to rust. I gently pointed out this fact so we could wrap up our discussion and get back on topic. But you decided to get all persnickety on me....

 

[gambit]

Not sure which part you are having trouble with here.

Christian and Jewish fanatics use religion to justify their terrorism, just as Islamic fanatics use religion to justify theirs.

The only difference is that the former disguise their terrorism as official wars, while the latter use outright terrorism.

The problem I am having is how could anyone, meaning YOU, vainly tries to disassociate Islam from Islamic terrorism while constantly associate Christianity with state policies. It does not matter if the war is 'official' or not. For a jihadist, his war is very much 'official' as his instructions allegedly came from Allah.

There is no relevance to rust. I gently pointed out this fact so we could wrap up our discussion and get back on topic. But you decided to get all persnickety on me....

No relevance and now you are crying that you get picked on just after you lectured me on staying on topic? How about I call you 'crybaby'...

 

[Developereo]

The problem I am having is how could anyone, meaning YOU, vainly tries to disassociate Islam from Islamic terrorism while constantly associate Christianity with state policies. It does not matter if the war is 'official' or not. For a jihadist, his war is very much 'official' as his instructions allegedly came from Allah.

Oh dear, looks like the trytophan overdose from Christmas turkey is kicking in for you...

When Christian or Jewish fanatics use religion to wage terrorism, we put the blame squarely on those individuals, not on the entire religion or its mainstream followers. When Islamic terrorists wage jihad, your crowd uses it as an excuse to demonize Islam and all Muslims.

you are crying

OK, gambit, if it saves your wounded pride to say I am crying, so be it.

Can we now bring the discussion back on track?

 

[ptldM3]

The Christian and Jewish extremists don't need to strap bombs on their bodies because their 'holy crusade' is carried out by organized armies -- of the US and Israeli variety.

Comparing an individual that blows himself up, holds hundreds of children hostage or behead another human in the name of religion can not be compared to the US or Israeli army in the context of religion. If you look at the wars the US has fought it has been: The civil war, a war of different ideologies, the Korean War, a war to suppress communism, the Vietnamese war, again to suppress communism, Desert storm, to stop the massacre of Muslims, and Operation Iraqi freedom, a war based on flawed intelligence. I fail to see what these wars have anything to do with Christian 'holy crusades' especially when many of the unlisted aren’t even Christian, nor did they know what wars they would be in when they went into battle. Your Israeli example is also interesting since much of Israel's wars have been for survival but more importantly, the Israeli army is made up of conscripts, even the IDF see's volunteer Muslims joining.

 

[Developereo]

We really should branch this off in a separate thread, but...

Comparing an individual that blows himself up, holds hundreds of children hostage or behead another human in the name of religion can not be compared to the US or Israeli army in the context of religion. If you look at the wars the US has fought it has been: The civil war, a war of different ideologies, the Korean War, a war to suppress communism, the Vietnamese war, again to suppress communism, Desert storm, to stop the massacre of Muslims, and Operation Iraqi freedom, a war based on flawed intelligence. I fail to see what these wars have anything to do with Christian 'holy crusades' especially when many of the unlisted aren’t even Christian, nor did they know what wars they would be in when they went into battle. Your Israeli example is also interesting since much of Israel's wars have been for survival but more importantly, the Israeli army is made up of conscripts, even the IDF see's volunteer Muslims joining.

The concept of terrorism has been narrowly defined by the West to deliberately exclude the systematic and wholesale massacre of civilians by official armies, but it doesn't lessen the fact that such 'collateral damage' is, in fact, calculated precisely to instil terror or, to use their euphemism, 'shock and awe'.

Israel's entire raison d'être is based around religion. It is the only country on the planet that gets away with religious discrimination enshrined in its very constitution. Any Jewish person anywhere on Earth is automatically a citizen, whereas millions of non-Jewish refugees cannot return to their homes. Therefore, by definition, the IDF is a religious militia. Military service in mandatory in Israel so, of course, the IDF will contain non-Jewish citizens of Israel.

Also, Western support for Israel has various reasons -- from Holocaust guilt to Christian fundamentalism. In the US, especially, a significant part of pro-Israel support comes from evangelical and other Christians who see Israel's existence as the precursor to Jesus' return to Earth (cf. rapture). American foreign and military policy in the Middle East is directly related to this Christian fundamentalism. Neither Arab oil, nor Israel's 'democracy', have anything to do with American military misadventures in that region. The Arabs have mismanaged their economies so spectacularly badly, they are more dependent on oil exports than the West is on their oil. They will sell their oil to the West regardless.

 

[Tang0]

OFF TOPIC:

Israel's entire raison d'être is based around religion. It is the only country on the planet that gets away with religious discrimination enshrined in its very constitution. Any Jewish person anywhere on Earth is automatically a citizen, whereas millions of non-Jewish refugees cannot return to their homes. Therefore, by definition, the IDF is a religious militia.

Why is it that everyone in south Asia seems to confound religion and race? If I convert to Judaism, I do not get Israeli citizenship, my mother needs to be Jewish. Most "Jews" these days are agnostics/atheists. Replace all the "Religious" bits with "Racial" and you will be on the right track. Jewish is a racial category, there is a brand of monotheism of the same name, but they are not the same thing.

I could not help correcting this notion. I suppose it just reflects the East/West way of looking at religion.
/OFF TOPIC

ON TOPIC: The problem is small, $228 million is not a small sum. It is an example of how expensive it is to maintain 5th generation aircraft. For comparison, 250 legacy F-15 and F-16's were decommissioned(FY2010 Air Force Budget: Do more with a lot less : Planes, Flying and Aviation), saving about 400$ million a year in maintenance /operational costs. Using a linear extrapolation, you can say that the costs of fixing some rust on 187 F-22's is equal to the entire maintenance and operational costs for 130 legacy aircraft for 1 year....

I might just be the peanut gallery, but that strikes me as a bit of a problem, no?

Or to put it another way, I could purchase 10 more legacy aircraft for the cost of fixing a "minuscule" problem on a 5th generation aircraft.

 

[Developereo]

If I convert to Judaism, I do not get Israeli citizenship, my mother needs to be Jewish.

The Law of Return is very much about religion, not race:

The law gives the right of return to those born Jews (having a Jewish mother or maternal grandmother), those with Jewish ancestry (having a Jewish father or grandfather) and converts to Judaism (Orthodox, Reform, or Conservative denominations—not secular—though Reform and Conservative conversions must take place outside the state, similar to civil marriages).

Or to put it another way, I could purchase 10 more legacy aircraft for the cost of fixing a "minuscule" problem on a 5th generation aircraft.

According to some other threads, just five F-22 are enough to wipe out most countries' entire air forces. By that logic, F-22 is worth every penny.

 

[Tang0]

Hmm, I stand corrected on the specifics of isreali law, but it does not change the fact that the government and millitary of the country is primarily secular. Anyway, I do happen to believe the 10-1 kill ratios of the f-22 vs. Leagecy aircraft, but maintenence costs will only go up as the airframe ages, and the rest of the world will eventually develop better countermesures. It is worth asking if the rest of the world beyond the US will have the budjet for a similiar 5th gen aircraft anytime soon.....

 

[Developereo]

Hmm, I stand corrected on the specifics of isreali law, but it does not change the fact that the government and millitary of the country is primarily secular.

The Israeli government and military exist to protect the state of Israel which, at its core, is an embodiment of religious discrimination and is founded on Abraham's Covenant in the Torah: the belief that the land is specially reserved for God's Chosen People.

IDF is the quintessential religious militia.

It is worth asking if the rest of the world beyond the US will have the budjet for a similiar 5th gen aircraft anytime soon.....

China has money. Plenty of it.

 

[amalakas]

I tried to stay away from the religious or "state" terrorism discussion over here but I can see that I might have to.

I see double measures attitude here, and unfortunately it's from the side of islamists.

No offence but one cannot compare an army following the orders of an elected government by the people with extremists who randomly hate the "west" for being infidels and bringing all "evil" to the world !!!

Also, the sum of the western European society accepts Muslims in a way Muslims would never accept westerners into their societies.
Just 100meters from where I live, there is a mosque, and all muslims walk around in their traditional clothes etc.

westerners on the other hand have much less "allowance", when we were conducting trips to Pakistan and Iran and Egypt for business, we were given strict instructions to remove all things that may identify us as westerners, like american or english insignia, lighters with engravings, neck crosses, and a lot of my colleagues who had tattoos which showed crosses (even though some were done in their heavy metal days) were never allowed to fly there.
The memo clearly stated that it is extremely dangerous!
The only christian church i found open, was a relic in egypt, with a 100 year old priest taking care of it. When I asked, he said after he dies, so does the church.
The xmas ceremony was recently banned in the occupied northern cyprus by the muslim state ! Last time some muslims were not allowed to do something, the entire press was advocating for them in the UK.


The Iraqi wars were for oil control and anyone who believes otherwise is a fool.

I am sorry, I cannot see how terrorists, are the same as armies.
in that sense , adolf hitler was the biggest terrorist of them all.

 

[Developereo]

I really don't want to continue this discussion in this thread.

I have already explained why the IDF is the quintessential religious militia whose entire purpose is to defend an extremist religious agenda.

As for Iraqi oil, Saddam was more than happy to lick America's boots and sell them oil. He even kept the anti-US religious extremists in check. Now Iraq is ruled by a coalition where religious extremists -- pro-Iran religious extremists -- have a say. If these wars were for Iraq's oil, the US seems to have completely miscalculated...

Finally, about treatment of non-Muslims in Muslim lands, feel free to continue the discussion in this thread:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/85899-christians-safe-muslim-lands-honestly-3.html

 

[amalakas]

I really don't want to continue this discussion in this thread.

I have already explained why the IDF is the quintessential religious militia whose entire purpose is to defend an extremist religious agenda.

Listen, I can't talk for the IDF, israel is a special case, i don't think there is anything similar in the world.
But even if the IDF is what you say, the rest of the west's armies aren't by default.

As for Iraqi oil, Saddam was more than happy to lick America's boots and sell them oil. He even kept the anti-US religious extremists in check. Now Iraq is ruled by a coalition where religious extremists -- pro-Iran religious extremists -- have a say. If these wars were for Iraq's oil, the US seems to have completely miscalculated...

And it is the first time they miscalculated ? look at vietnam, Afganistan, during the USSR war there.. I think it is safer to assume they miscalculated, than that they are a christian crusade army.

Finally, about treatment of non-Muslims in Muslim lands, feel free to continue the discussion in this thread:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/85899-christians-safe-muslim-lands-honestly-3.html

Thanks man, but I don't want to say anything more, nothing I say will change anything, or anyone's beliefs, so no point there.