F-22p News & Discussions

[Keysersoze]

r we goin to have any missile n cruise missile (Brahmos) protection on these 4 new frigates??? in my view these frigates shuld have both SEARAM ANTI-SHIP MISSILE DEFENSE SYSTEM and PHALANX CLOSE-IN WEAPON SYSTEM (CIWS) (Block 2).

can any one shed light on this issue please.

i think we need multiple missile defences on these new ships, we cannot afford a hit on these frigates!!! (Brahmos being the biggest threat)

Sohail rather than worry about a specific threat you should look at the bigger picture.

The F-22p has the following A2A defences.
FM-90 SAM
2 x AK-630M 30mm CIWS

The trick to defending against threats like Brahmos is easy. First you analyse the threat.
The supersonic missiles have to operate at a specific profile in order to get their range (with a large portion of the flight at high altitude) At LO LO LO profiles they have a much shorter range. The HI portion of the flight would allow the missile to be detected by by radar (especially with AWACS and the large RCS of the missile in question)

Targeting for such missiles is also a issue. The means for targeting at extreme ranges does not exist, so the missile has to use inertial guidance for a large part of trip. Therefore the frigates would first have to be detected THEN fired upon (during which time the ships would probably move) in order for the missile to have a chance to hit. (such detection can be noticed as well and counter measures prepared.

Another disadvantage of this type of missile is the that compared to a ship it's seeker will be relatively small rendering it vulnerable to ECM. The amount of heat generated by a supersonic missile is huge allowing it to be detected by IR systems easier as well giving a nice hot target for IR missiles as well as Phalanx or similar.

 

[sohailbutt]

Thank u Keys for replyin, really appreciate that.

 

[EagleEyes]

Owais,

Pictures are posted in this thread.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/naval-forces/10778-launch-f-22p-hudong-shipyard-shanghai-april-7-a.html

 

[Jliu]

Sohail rather than worry about a specific threat you should look at the bigger picture.

The F-22p has the following A2A defences.
FM-90 SAM
2 x AK-630M 30mm CIWS

The trick to defending against threats like Brahmos is easy. First you analyse the threat.
The supersonic missiles have to operate at a specific profile in order to get their range (with a large portion of the flight at high altitude) At LO LO LO profiles they have a much shorter range. The HI portion of the flight would allow the missile to be detected by by radar (especially with AWACS and the large RCS of the missile in question)

Targeting for such missiles is also a issue. The means for targeting at extreme ranges does not exist, so the missile has to use inertial guidance for a large part of trip. Therefore the frigates would first have to be detected THEN fired upon (during which time the ships would probably move) in order for the missile to have a chance to hit. (such detection can be noticed as well and counter measures prepared.

Another disadvantage of this type of missile is the that compared to a ship it's seeker will be relatively small rendering it vulnerable to ECM. The amount of heat generated by a supersonic missile is huge allowing it to be detected by IR systems easier as well giving a nice hot target for IR missiles as well as Phalanx or similar.

The points you mentioned above are good and valid but I would like to stress that they hold valid only if the f22p is operating as part of a joint force with organic EW assets and collaborative engagement capability with prior detection of the inbounds. You can almost certainly assume that any Brahmos type weapon will be fired in saturation attacks against surface threats-the existing AAW defences (Sea Dart and HQ-7/naval crotale) are nowhere near adequate to compensate for the sheer number of supersonic and subsonic AshMs the IN will have available from multiple launch patforms in the absence of a SPY- like collaborative engagement capability.

Failing that, the best approach for the PN would be in coordinating with the PAF to attempt to gain air superiority over the ops area to keep IN/IAF air assets a 'safe' distance away-a questionable task in itself. Therefore it would be a sensible idea to invest heavily in a system of networked FACs that are realtively cheap and fulfill the same interdiction and strike capability that Pn requires.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

 

[IceCold]

Is there a link to what you have posted because i cant see it.

 

[echo 1]

The points you mentioned above are good and valid but I would like to stress that they hold valid only if the f22p is operating as part of a joint force with organic EW assets and collaborative engagement capability with prior detection of the inbounds. You can almost certainly assume that any Brahmos type weapon will be fired in saturation attacks against surface threats-the existing AAW defences (Sea Dart and HQ-7/naval crotale) are nowhere near adequate to compensate for the sheer number of supersonic and subsonic AshMs the IN will have available from multiple launch patforms in the absence of a SPY- like collaborative engagement capability.

Failing that, the best approach for the PN would be in coordinating with the PAF to attempt to gain air superiority over the ops area to keep IN/IAF air assets a 'safe' distance away-a questionable task in itself. Therefore it would be a sensible idea to invest heavily in a system of networked FACs that are realtively cheap and fulfill the same interdiction and strike capability that Pn requires.

I thought that Pakistan was gitting the P-3c AWAC version to support the navy.

 

[Ahassan]

Pakistan should go for 054 class frigates.......!!!

 

[IceCold]

Pakistan should go for 054 class frigates.......!!!

I think we should and i think we will as stated earlier there is a need of a new frigate which will be heavier in displacement and with more modern systems then the F-22p and might be of chinese origin which brings only the type 054 in mind.

 

[Owais]

Pakistan gets another Chinese frigate

SHANGHAI (November 01 2008): China on Friday handed over a second F-22P frigate to Pakistan at an impressive launching ceremony of the vessel held at Hudong Shipyard. The ceremony was attended by high ranking officials from Chinese Navy, senior representatives of Hudong Shipyard, China Ship-Building and Trading Company, Pakistan Navy, Ministry of Defence and Shanghai-based Pakistan Consul General.

Speaking on the occasion, Consul General Zafar-ud-Din Mahmood congratulated senior officials of Hudong Shipyard, Pakistan Navy and Ministry of Defence for their co-operation in timely and successful construction of the ship.

The sword class ship will be equipped with state of the art weapons and sensor systems. It will also carry Z9EC helicopters being manufactured in China. Three of the four ships of this class for which the two countries signed an agreement in 2005 will be built in China, while the fourth will be constructed at Karachi Shipyard for transfer of technology.

 

[EagleEyes]

Chinese shipyards are fast. Simply great.

 

[jupiter2007]

Chinese shipyards are fast. Simply great.

Chinese are the slowest in building anything compare to western countries but offcourse faster than Indians

 

[fatman17]

Pakistan gets another Chinese frigate

SHANGHAI (November 01 2008): China on Friday handed over a second F-22P frigate to Pakistan at an impressive launching ceremony of the vessel held at Hudong Shipyard. The ceremony was attended by high ranking officials from Chinese Navy, senior representatives of Hudong Shipyard, China Ship-Building and Trading Company, Pakistan Navy, Ministry of Defence and Shanghai-based Pakistan Consul General.

Speaking on the occasion, Consul General Zafar-ud-Din Mahmood congratulated senior officials of Hudong Shipyard, Pakistan Navy and Ministry of Defence for their co-operation in timely and successful construction of the ship.

The sword class ship will be equipped with state of the art weapons and sensor systems. It will also carry Z9EC helicopters being manufactured in China. Three of the four ships of this class for which the two countries signed an agreement in 2005 will be built in China, while the fourth will be constructed at Karachi Shipyard for transfer of technology.

very impressive indeed, however both platforms are now undergoing weapons, powerplant and sensor fits. then sea trials and finally operational status in the PN. the 1st frigate is scheduled to enter service around end -09.

what would be interesting is to guage the performance of Karachi shipyard building the 4th frigate with the chinese shipyards. i say this because the 3rd agosta-90B was operational after a 9-month delay in its production by Karachi shipyards.

 

[Imran Khan]

China hands over frigate to Pakistan

SHANGHAI: China on Friday handed over a F-22P frigate to Pakistan at a ceremony at the Hudong Shipyard. Besides representatives of the shipyard, senior officials from the Chinese Navy, China Ship Building and Trading Company, Pakistan Navy, Ministry of Defence and Shanghai-based Consulate General of Pakistan attended the ceremony.

Three of the four F-22P frigates, for which the two countries signed an agreement in 2005, will be built in China while the fourth will be constructed at Karachi Shipyard for transfer of technology. China has not handed over two such vessels to Pakistan.

 

[z9-ec]

Finally, looks like the naval procurement plan is ahead of schedule.