F-22P a bad decision by PN?

[MastanKhan]

the point is, F22 is totally ill equipped to handle the threats it will face.facing brahmos,klubs,kilos,scorpenes,akula,arihants is not a job you'd want to do with a outdated and inferior system.and at 750 million $ ,its not at all cheap! with couple of hundreads more PN could have had any world class frigates on offer from european yards.

Hi,

Are you thinking that one frigate costs $750 million---if such---then I believe that you are wrong---seemingly the cost of 4 frigates is 750 million including 4---6 helicopters.


Which european shipyard is willing to seel us one close to that price range?

But then thankyou very much for your consideration---you are just a little ahead of yourself---a few of the systems that you are talking about are not operational---not inducted yet----by the time they are---we will have few other options available.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Which european shipyard is willing to seel us one close to that price range?

One simple answer. OHP!

upgraded with


8 Harpoon block II
32 SM-2
2x3 torpedo
8 VL ASROC RUM-139
1 Phalanx block 1b
Hull mounted sonar and enhanced ASW capabilities.
and the worth is.... 65 million dollars after the upgrade.

A much better option.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

....IN has access to russian, european ,israeli and indigenous ECM and ECCMs.chinese options are limited only to russian and whatever they could come up with.

anything "indigenous" by indians are not a threat to pakistan.

its still hard to take down a salvo of mach 3 missiles performing S curve terminal maneuvers.

any back up?

kilos,scorpenes,akula,arihants

Kilos is a rusting bucket in Indian navy, most of them are un worthy of combat... Once Pakistan inducts Type-214 in large numbers Akula, arihants, and scorpenes wont be much of a problem for the navy...

 

[ambersjay]

anything "indigenous" by indians are not a threat to pakistan.

any back up?

Kilos is a rusting bucket in Indian navy, most of them are un worthy of combat... Once Pakistan inducts Type-214 in large numbers Akula, arihants, and scorpenes wont be much of a problem for the navy...

yeah because type 214 employs super duper martian technology which can take down even a few death stars

whatever makes you sleep well at night,son....thats all i can say.

 

[muse]

You don't get it, we want you to sleep well at night - we don't want you agitated and nervous - that's why our stuff is not up to snuff - relax, take it easy... you can feel your eyelids getting heavy...so heavy...must sl....zz.zzz

 

[Myth_buster_1]

yeah because type 214 employs super duper martian technology which can take down even a few death stars

whatever makes you sleep well at night,son....thats all i can say.

Type-214 is a hunter sub. actually you know what.. how about you watch this video and keep one thing in mind that Type-212/214 are the best conventional subs in the world.

 

[wangrong]

Are you thinking that one frigate costs $750 million---if such---then I believe that you are wrong---seemingly the cost of 4 frigates is 750 million including 4---6 helicopters.

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including Technology transfer

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

OHP---oliver hazard p and all the upgrades on it are still sanction prone if they want to. Even though we will get a couple of them in due time---we still want to have something that we can rely upon. They maybe sitting in the shipyard and getting ready for dlivery the next day and something major came up----there is a terrorist attack in india----india yelled and screamed murder and there goes my ohp.

Once we have an existing system in place from another source and we are not totally dependant on the americans---it then gets easier for us to get equipment from the yanks.

Just like inthe 80's---along with the F 16's---if we had the mirage 2k's---the sanctions would have done us no harm.

Remember---in the real world----if you have a job----then you have a better chance of finding a new job---but if you are unemployed and regardless whomsoever you claim to be---it gets next to impossible to find someone to talk to you.

Beggers cannot be choosers---we cannot always go and look for the best of the best all the time and then wait for the others to say ---maybe--ok---I don't think so---.

Type 22 is a great asset that we have---we don't have to listen to anyone---even if we have issues with fundings---china helps us find ways to fund it

 

[BoggedDown]

Exactly same opinion. Diversification is the key word. Monopoly is bad in every way. Also the famous saying: "one bird in hand is better than ten birds in bush". Another one is "cut your coat according to your clothe".

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Hi,

OHP---oliver hazard p and all the upgrades on it are still sanction prone if they want to. Even though we will get a couple of them in due time---we still want to have something that we can rely upon. They maybe sitting in the shipyard and getting ready for dlivery the next day and something major came up----there is a terrorist attack in india----india yelled and screamed murder and there goes my ohp.

thats a very childish remark... What did US do to pakistan in 2002 and 2008 that it is going to do if india is hit with another terrorists attack..

Just like inthe 80's---along with the F 16's---if we had the mirage 2k's---the sanctions would have done us no harm.

Oh for god sake this is the thing of the past!! get over it!! heck even the french embargoed us in the past! Mind you if you... also put Type-214, Agosta-90B, F-16, etc to your "sanction" prone list..... so accordingly pakistan should buy every single export version of chinese products. I guess thats what would save us...
actually for get it...
kindly discuss the technical issues then political.. and i have already given my opinion... which is... OHP is a better frigate then F-22P and a better bang for the buck!!

Beggers cannot be choosers---we cannot always go and look for the best of the best all the time and then wait for the others to say ---maybe--ok---I don't think so---

.
This is not a cards game... a very serious business considering pakistan's security is under stake and paid hel- a lot of money out of its broke pocket. Chinese solution is not the solution to every problem and Milgem is the perfect answer... with a little bit more patient and wait another 4-5 years PN would have a better bang for the buck!

Type 22 is a great asset that we have---we don't have to listen to anyone---even if we have issues with fundings---china helps us find ways to fund it

And what chance will F-22P have against IN surface fleet like Shivalik and Talwar? At least with addition to 4 already ordered milgems pakistan would at least have a good capable 7-8 milgem corvette fleet... And plus the F-22p deal is nothing but a "10 year credit payment" program and even Germany and Turkey are offering same payment program though with highly advance technology!

 

[Quwa]

I think the PN is just acquiring the OHP with its ASW systems, and will upgrade them as part of a different program - perhaps with Turkey? I believe the Turks have begun to extensively refit their OHP (G-Class) FFGs with:

Indigenous X-band radar and sonar-systems.
Indigenous GENESIS combat management system.
Mk.41 VLS for ESSM

I think the only issue PN would face with the OHP is its air defence system, but it shouldn't be a huge roadblock. Given that the U.S. has already released the F-16s, AMRAAM, Harpoon Block-II, JDAM, Hawkeye-2000, etc, I don't think ESSM would be a huge stretch.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Sometime people are so innocent about things in real life that it looks un-real.

There was no such thing as a french embargo----that was just a little inconvenience---just a little subterfuge---the definition of an embargo is something that breaks your backs and makes you a cripple for years to come---you beg and scream and holler---your voice goes hoarse---and none comes to your aid---that is what embargos are.

Wars are not fought alone by technical or political issues---wars are fought on the basis of what you have to show up with at the battlefield---.

The first and the foremost things that the weapons of death and destruction do---is to make a political statement----the next thing is the availability and integration of the weapons system, without any strings attached to the delivery and operational aspect of the system---which is---you can use it against this enemy---but you can't use it against the other enemy.

The political statement over here is that pakistan has chosen to accept what china has to offer---if it doesnot get any other better system---they might opt for the next step up---the 054's---.

Sometimes---the best system is not the best deal---because it comes with too many strings attached---or there is too much time delay related to its delivery---like the OHP---we might see it operational in 2--3 years time---but our defence need was yesterday to fill in some kind of void---.

Even though---supposedly---F 22 maynot be the greatest system there is---but it still has deep fangs---it can destroy the enemy as good as any other platform.

Now to wait for another 4---5 years for milgem---plus train on the new platform for another two to four years so that your crew is somewhat capable to fight in a war---that is getting to 10 years time frame.

What do people on this board think---that pakistanis can jump on a ship and from day one operate it at a 110 % of its capabilities just because they are pakistanis----.

It takes years and years to prepare the seamen for operational duties and war on a new ship.

People who talk about french embargo on pakistan---are clueless about embargos---they just want to talk the talk without knowing the reality behind the issue and also sometimes it becomes fashionable to do so.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Are you thinking that one frigate costs $750 million---if such---then I believe that you are wrong---seemingly the cost of 4 frigates is 750 million including 4---6 helicopters.

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including Technology transfer

Had read on many news items that ammunition is also included with in this 750M$ deal, meaning the frigates, helicopters, ToT, the AshM missiles, the 76mm gun ammo, CIWS ammo, Torpedoes & ammo for the ECM systems all are included in them.

Hope it can be verified from somewhere again.

 

[Penguin]

I think the PN is just acquiring the OHP with its ASW systems, and will upgrade them as part of a different program - perhaps with Turkey? I believe the Turks have begun to extensively refit their OHP (G-Class) FFGs with:

Indigenous X-band radar and sonar-systems.
Indigenous GENESIS combat management system.
Mk.41 VLS for ESSM

I think the only issue PN would face with the OHP is its air defence system, but it shouldn't be a huge roadblock. Given that the U.S. has already released the F-16s, AMRAAM, Harpoon Block-II, JDAM, Hawkeye-2000, etc, I don't think ESSM would be a huge stretch.

And should ESSM/MK41 be a problem, then there is still the possibility of Mk48 VLU, the cells of which hold a single VL Sea Sparrow (or two ESSM). There are 4 variations of the Mk48, which are used e.g. in Canadian Halifax, Dutch Doorman, and South Korean KD1 classes as well as Danish Stanflex ships. Several could possibly be employed in an OHP upgrade if ESSM were unavailable to PN. An OHP with a number of Sea Sparrow would be able to fend for itself. And Sea Sparrow is fully compatible with original firecontrol systems on board OHP (Stir, WM25: is also used e.g. on Sea Sparrow armed ex-Dutch Kortenaer and Greek Elli class)

 

[Myth_buster_1]

I think the PN is just acquiring the OHP with its ASW systems, and will upgrade them as part of a different program - perhaps with Turkey? I believe the Turks have begun to extensively refit their OHP (G-Class) FFGs with:

So far Turkey has offered its indigenous combat management system and nothing more. Prior to retirement of FFG-08 from USN in 2010 it will straight away go to a shipyard in America and undergo modernization program.

Mk.41 VLS for ESSM

Like indicated in many articles that PN OHP will be a pimped out version with improved ASW capabilities like anti-submarine rocket. So utilizing MK41 with ESSM is not a first priority but RUM-139 is...