What's new

F-22P a bad decision by PN?

Lets disscus the cons of this light frigate.

F-22P is a very light frigate which will be a bait for IN new frigates... unless PN intention is to use them for costal defence then i can understand but if they plan to achive deep strike then i am sorry to say but PN was not thinking...

IMO a bad move.... should have gone for latest corvettes..

Sir I think you just ave answer to your own query in you own post. Pakistan Navy indeed is a costal defense Navy. Pakistan Navy is not meant to be a Blue water Navy so all the doctrine and equipment are place accordingly. Then there is another thing involved called ToT and upgrading Karachi dockyard.

:pakistan:
 
Today's exocet and harpoons are nothing like 1980s. and i am affraid F-22P CIWS are nothing like current european version of goal keeper..

Hmmm

Sounds interesting!

Do you have any technical data to back up your claim? Or it is just old "China is sub standard" mantra at work here.
 
Sir I think you just ave answer to your own query in you own post. Pakistan Navy indeed is a costal defense Navy. Pakistan Navy is not meant to be a Blue water Navy so all the doctrine and equipment are place accordingly. Then there is another thing involved called ToT and upgrading Karachi dockyard.

:pakistan:

no this is a wrong preception about navy, same is also said about air force which is not ture at all.. and their is no such thing as "only defensive" in conventional warfare... we need to attack in order to utilize enmey's threat before its hunts you down... if PN orders, type-214, TF-2000, milgems, etc they are not going to be "costal defense".. and anyways, F-22P can barely stand IN frigates offense...
IMO PN top brass were probibly bribed and this light frigate is forced down PN's throat.
 
Hmmm

Sounds interesting!

Do you have any technical data to back up your claim? Or it is just old "China is sub standard" mantra at work here.

listen. i am not ignorant anti-chinese.. i am a die hard fan of JF-17, FC-20, Al-khalid which would not have been possible without chinese assistance.. i only dislike F-22P because its a substandard frigate and not their top of their line.. it would have been a better choice if we would have opted for 2-3 type-054 in place of 4 F-22p.
 
And what if Chinese had declined our request for 054 or 053 etc?

What if PN is going to use F-22P in role of costal defence? Who knows? this is not only thing we are getting.

BTW, my question was directed at you post regarding low quality of CIWS of F-22P..do you have anything to back your claim? Have any test done where this system was failed?
 
And what if Chinese had declined our request for 054 or 053 etc?
then we should have simply walked away with our 750 million dollars and look for better option in west like from turkey, france, germany etc... btw they have already offered their top of the line technology like Type-214, Freem, milgem etc...

What if PN is going to use F-22P in role of costal defence? Who knows? this is not only thing we are getting.
very bad decision.. IMO OHP can do better job then F-22P in costal defense..
BTW, my question was directed at you post regarding low quality of CIWS of F-22P..do you have anything to back your claim? Have any test done where this system was failed?
No i havent. but i can guess it is as good as its main 76mm AK-174 gun which is used on 450 tonne russian 1980s corvette... :smitten:
 
No i havent. but i can guess it is as good as its main 76mm AK-174 gun which is used on 450 tonne russian 1980s corvette...

This is actually what i wanted to learn my dear.How you "GUESS" .. China in 2009 is not what it was in 1980.

F-22P may be not as high tech as OHP and french options were but bear in mind in Pakistan has a plan to build on it like it will build on JF-17's current version. In that phase Chinese are only viable option.
 
Today's exocet and harpoons are nothing like 1980s. and i am affraid F-22P CIWS are not capable as current european version of goal keeper..

After your this statement sir, i guess i should stop posting on this thread, as u r in no way listening to what others or me are trying to say, but u just want to believe what ur heart tell u. And that is F-22P is B.S, even without knowing wht its full capabilities are & wht its sensors are in real.
In my opinion the equipment of F-22P has not been truly revealed for secrecy reasons to keep them a surprise so that its full capability is not revealed.

And as for change in Harpoon or Exocet missiles, kindly check their specifications, they don't have any extra thing added to make them more lethal. No matter how much advanced Harpoon becomes, the main thing is speed of the missile to defeat the CIWS, which both these missiles don't have. And also check the specifications of C-803 which F-22P is going to have. Mach 2.0 at last leg of its journey.

As for Harpoon Block II, even USN has not acquired them.

And as for Type-730 CIWS, its capability is equal to Goal Keeper or may be superior. The land version can be used to attack Precision Guided Bombs launched from aircraft, i do hope you can imagine at what speed and how small are PGMs. In tests of Type-730 CIWS, it downed HJ series ATGM, which are way too small compared to harpoon, Exocet or any other ASM. Also in tests, it took down 4 or 5 missiles with 5 secs time apart.

The only missile which can seriously defeat a CIWS is the russian sunburn (Moskit) series which attacks at around Mach 2+ or 3 if i remember right & last phase of attack is in an S shape to make it harder for the CIWS to target it.

Harpoon or Exocet gives the ships 2 to 3 minutes warning time, while C-803 or Sunburn series missiles give less then 1 min and in some reports around 30 seconds to detect.

I can keep on going into further details of the systems but it may be of no use.


The latest Chinese ASM missiles are feared more then harpoons or Exocet missiles.

The defensive weapons and offensive weapons of F-22P are way better then harpoons or Exocet missiles and single american CIWS on PN ships.

The only thing left is its electronic counter measure systems, radars and stuff, which i do believe would be good enough to counter IN.

I had read somewhere that PN is going to or was or is thinking to change the American CIWS on its current ships with Type-730.

And China has always given us their latest & top of the line weapon systems, JF-17 & J-10B, AEW&C, AK, HJ-8 series ATGM, MANPADS, missiles etc etc.

Looking at the history, i don't have any doubt that F-22P has the latest & most recent Chinese weapon system not old outdated ones.

Bro, its a request to kindly do listen to other peoples remarks and analyze them with care and see what is good in Chinese weapons & options and what is good about western.

Western are good no doubt, but sanctions, cost of spare parts, easy access to technology of different things, production rate etc etc all are factors to consider.
 
Lets disscus the cons of this light frigate.

F-22P is a very light frigate which will be a bait for IN new frigates... unless PN intention is to use them for costal defence then i can understand but if they plan to achive deep strike then i am sorry to say but PN was not thinking...

IMO a bad move.... should have gone for latest corvettes..

Friend i will be honest with you. Tell me does chinese weapons par with western weapons or russian weapons? Answer is 'NO'. China builds warships, jet fighters in huge number for simple reason. It cheap and not par with other countries weapons. Building more and more in number will make them alot expensive due to maintaince fuel etc etc right? China can afford spending more money on it (atleast for now as economy growing fast) but later when china's economy slows than it will be headach for them. Now when pakistan buys anything from china it has to buy in numbers because chinese weapons aint par with western weapons (which india getting easily). Tell me friend is pakistan fastest growing economy like china??? They can afford it for now but pakistan cant waste more on fuel and maintaince. The wise move is buy weapons superior from west. Its expensive but u dont need them in numbers which means less spending on maintainance fuel etc etc. Simply advice is do what india doing. We going for best weapons. We dont need them in numbers. Few are good enough to shiver any country. Think wise like india friend.
 
Friend i will be honest with you. Tell me does chinese weapons par with western weapons or russian weapons? Answer is 'NO'. China builds warships, jet fighters in huge number for simple reason. It cheap and not par with other countries weapons. Building more and more in number will make them alot expensive due to maintaince fuel etc etc right? China can afford spending more money on it (atleast for now as economy growing fast) but later when china's economy slows than it will be headach for them. Now when pakistan buys anything from china it has to buy in numbers because chinese weapons aint par with western weapons (which india getting easily). Tell me friend is pakistan fastest growing economy like china??? They can afford it for now but pakistan cant waste more on fuel and maintaince. The wise move is buy weapons superior from west. Its expensive but u dont need them in numbers which means less spending on maintainance fuel etc etc. Simply advice is do what india doing. We going for best weapons. We dont need them in numbers. Few are good enough to shiver any country. Think wise like india friend.

now did i need a troller to educate me with indian mentality BS?
i am merely dissucing "F-22P" which is not Chinese top of the line frigate.. take your nonsense to your children's playground bharatraksk.
China is a emerging player in indigenous defense field. while India has privilege of open market meaning almost every other country is willing to provide india whith any TOT so that they can make somthing at home with their own name tag. tell me... can india produce "Arjunk, LCA, Arihant, etc on their own without 90+% outside help? the answer is NO. you will see in your life that china will be a super power with their own indigenous military power unlike india which relys on others to project itself as future "mini super power in the region". keep cheating yourself..... its going to hurt you indians really bad one day..
 
And also keep in mind China plan on fighting a war for sustained period of time so they have their own assmebly lines.Unlike Pakistan or India we can fight war for weeks or at best 1-2 month only where as China can fight for long period of time.Brahmos you can import all the high tech stuff you want but the fact of matter is should China attack India it will destroy your country very badly economically and as well as your country infrastructure.
 
Last edited:
And also keep in mind China plan on fighting a war for sustained period of time so they have their own assmebly lines.Unlike Pakistan or India we can fight war for weeks or at best 1-2 month only where as China can fight for long period of time.Brahmos you can import all the high tech stuff you want but the fact of matter is should China attack India it will rape you anally.

Sir
Your last sentence needs revising. Howsoever you hate a country, use of such language on an open and serious forum is distasteful. Could I please request you to revise your statement and refrain from using such language in future
Many thanks
waSalam
Araz
 
sorry but with your over patriotisim you are blindly defending this deal.
After your this statement sir, i guess i should stop posting on this thread, as u r in no way listening to what others or me are trying to say, but u just want to believe what ur heart tell u. And that is F-22P is B.S, even without knowing wht its full capabilities are & wht its sensors are in real.
In my opinion the equipment of F-22P has not been truly revealed for secrecy reasons to keep them a surprise so that its full capability is not revealed.
bahi jaan... their is no "secrect" about F-22P... you can expect some out of supirior type-052-054 but not F-22P..
And as for change in Harpoon or Exocet missiles, kindly check their specifications, they don't have any extra thing added to make them more lethal. No matter how much advanced Harpoon becomes, the main thing is speed of the missile to defeat the CIWS, which both these missiles don't have. And also check the specifications of C-803 which F-22P is going to have. Mach 2.0 at last leg of its journey.
C-803 is yet another variant of exocet from the 1980s. however chinese have improved it alot over time. their are two type of AShM. west likes sub-sonic because it can fly very very low to the sea meaning very hard to detect in sea clutter. while on the other hand russians likes theirs to be supersonic so that it can, reach targest much faster and good chance of avoiding defense system due to its speed. both type have pros and cons. but interms of sub-sonic which all the western navies operate Harpoons, Exocet, RBS-15 are simply the best...

As for Harpoon Block II, even USN has not acquired them.
PN has received 130 orders of Block II few years ago.. 50 Sub lauch, 50 Ship launch, and 30 air launch.

And as for Type-730 CIWS, its capability is equal to Goal Keeper or may be superior. The land version can be used to attack Precision Guided Bombs launched from aircraft, i do hope you can imagine at what speed and how small are PGMs. In tests of Type-730 CIWS, it downed HJ series ATGM, which are way too small compared to harpoon, Exocet or any other ASM. Also in tests, it took down 4 or 5 missiles with 5 secs time apart.
sounds pretty much "undefeatable"? :yahoo:

The only missile which can seriously defeat a CIWS is the russian sunburn (Moskit) series which attacks at around Mach 2+ or 3 if i remember right & last phase of attack is in an S shape to make it harder for the CIWS to target it.
hnnnnnn NO. you are wrong.. can you also say that about super sonic CM? so accourding to your analogy Tomahawk is pretty much crap front of super sonic bhramos? :lol:

Harpoon or Exocet gives the ships 2 to 3 minutes warning time, while C-803 or Sunburn series missiles give less then 1 min and in some reports around 30 seconds to detect.
:disagree::what: are you high?
I can keep on going into further details of the systems but it may be of no use.
yep you are right because its not right..
The latest Chinese ASM missiles are feared more then harpoons or Exocet missiles.
feared? they are feared because their is a chance of some groups like Hazbullah using them aganist IDF vessels.. however its still deadly in conventional warfare but if you tell some one that it is the most advance AShM they are probibly gonna laugh at you..
The defensive weapons and offensive weapons of F-22P are way better then harpoons or Exocet missiles and single american CIWS on PN ships.
huh??

The only thing left is its electronic counter measure systems, radars and stuff, which i do believe would be good enough to counter IN.
I had read somewhere that PN is going to or was or is thinking to change the American CIWS on its current ships with Type-730.
are you just saying this just for sake of it?? why would PN wanna install type-730 when they already have 12 supirior Phalanx block 1Bs?
And China has always given us their latest & top of the line weapon systems, JF-17 & J-10B, AEW&C, AK, HJ-8 series ATGM, MANPADS, missiles etc etc.
this does not proves that we should buy F-22P because we have bought this and that from them?
 
Sir
Your last sentence needs revising. Howsoever you hate a country, use of such language on an open and serious forum is distasteful. Could I please request you to revise your statement and refrain from using such language in future
Many thanks
waSalam
Araz
Sorry Sir.Was just feeding a troll.I have edited my post.Will not post like that again.:pakistan:
 
sorry but with your over patriotisim you are blindly defending this deal.

bahi jaan... their is no "secrect" about F-22P... you can expect some out of supirior type-052-054 but not F-22P..

i dont think there much of a secret there either

C-803 is yet another variant of exocet from the 1980s. however chinese have improved it alot over time. their are two type of AShM. west likes sub-sonic because it can fly very very low to the sea meaning very hard to detect in sea clutter. while on the other hand russians likes theirs to be supersonic so that it can, reach targest much faster and good chance of avoiding defense system due to its speed. both type have pros and cons. but interms of sub-sonic which all the western navies operate Harpoons, Exocet, RBS-15 are simply the best...

differencing navies have different doctrines

PN has received 130 orders of Block II few years ago.. 50 Sub lauch, 50 Ship launch, and 30 air launch.

no comment

sounds pretty much "undefeatable"? :yahoo:

not undefeatable , just very difficult to defeats is all. each system has its pros and cons somehitng like CIWS are for missles which is what its good at there are other weapons to overcome it

hnnnnnn NO. you are wrong.. can you also say that about super sonic CM? so accourding to your analogy Tomahawk is pretty much crap front of super sonic bhramos? :lol:

its the maneuvering that makes the missiles like sun burn difficult to intercept, but for things like subsonic missle they fly low as to not be detected till their near their target, supersonic alone does not make a missle great, it helps but thats not all there is to it

:disagree::what: are you high?

not sure what he means about warning time but traveling faster be default means it will reach you in a shorter amount of time, but detentions in these cases are also easier for most missiles

yep you are right because its not right..

no comment

feared? they are feared because their is a chance of some groups like Hazbullah using them aganist IDF vessels.. however its still deadly in conventional warfare but if you tell some one that it is the most advance AShM they are probibly gonna laugh at you..

actually it is feared owning to its hit percentage of 98%(search this urself just google it) also Hezbollah used a C602


try reading it agian

are you just saying this just for sake of it?? why would PN wanna install type-730 when they already have 12 supirior Phalanx block 1Bs?

i would be interesting in a source for this as well

this does not proves that we should buy F-22P because we have bought this and that from them?

no but it is useful and come from a reliable source with full support then why not
 

Latest posts

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom