F-22 vs J-20 - aka USA-made jet fighters vs China-made jet fighters

[Pepsi Cola]

And yet his opinion regarding the use of Doppler is either misinterpreted by you or is considered not feasible by those who are more knowledgeable and experienced than him. Your pick.

Are you saying that you’re more knowledgable than him?. I bet if you’re really that smart you wont have the time to waste on Pakistan Defence lmao. I’ve wasted enough time with you, I have way better things to do than arguing the non existence difference of “can” and “able to” lmao.

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

J-20 is obviously a newer design. EOTS and DSI are copied straight from F-35. Wing configuration is copied right from MiG 1.44. F-22 is pretty old design.

 

[Figaro]

J-20 is obviously a newer design. EOTS and DSI are copied straight from F-35. Wing configuration is copied right from MiG 1.44. F-22 is pretty old design.

Don't make these ignorant comments ... plz do some research. Thanks.

 

[gambit]

Are you saying that you’re more knowledgable than him?. I bet if you’re really that smart you wont have the time to waste on Pakistan Defence lmao. I’ve wasted enough time with you, I have way better things to do than arguing the non existence difference of “can” and “able to” lmao.

You are correct that you wasted my time with me, someone who is far more knowledgeable than you about this subject.

The Doppler component predate the F-117, and yet since the F-117, there is not one radar system out there that have PROVEN to successfully used the Doppler component against 'stealth'.

https://www.everythingweather.com/weather-radar/bands.shtml

There you have it. Why not have any weather radar managed to detect 'stealth'?

So yes, your time was truly wasted because you ended up blowing away your own arguments.

 

[kungfugymnast]

You are correct that you wasted my time with me, someone who is far more knowledgeable than you about this subject.

The Doppler component predate the F-117, and yet since the F-117, there is not one radar system out there that have PROVEN to successfully used the Doppler component against 'stealth'.

https://www.everythingweather.com/weather-radar/bands.shtml

There you have it. Why not have any weather radar managed to detect 'stealth'?

So yes, your time was truly wasted because you ended up blowing away your own arguments.

You angered another person again? In fact I have to admit that your knowledge from your past job in the military is informative. However, the way you reply would spark off argument. You could have just replied nicely and nothing goes wrong.

The spratlys issue and current Trump becoming Democrats style (after his business revival plan failed), there might be J20 vs F22 faceoff after the artificial island expansion is complete. At least a squad of J20 should be stationed there. Since both are stealth, most likely they'll be spotted via satellites and fighters will be sent in to their coordinates. If j20 being scrambled to intercept the intruding F22, how far can their AESA detect each other based on your guess? Under 20, 10 or 5 miles before they could track and lock on to launch active radar missiles? Put aside IR guided missile.

 

[chauism]

I think you don't quite understand how stealth work.

Stealth is not being undetectable, rather, stealth work in hiding its signature with the background, which radar can detect it, but cannot pick up as a combat aircraft, or as the old saying goes, the best place to hide a tree is a forest.

The topic at hand have nothing to do with physics, because the way to detect stealth aircraft is the same, it have to do with how you can process the signal, which is the problem for mathematic. Radar can detect all aircraft, but how much it return to the radar is another matter altogether.

For example, to simplify, let's say there are 5 band of radar return in all flying object.

Band 1 : Small Bird (such as Sparrow)
Band 2 : Large Bird (such as Canadian Geese)
Band 3 : Small Aircraft (such as 2 seater cessna)
Band 4 : Military Aircraft (such as F-35)
Band 5 : Large Aircraft (such as B-52 or Boeing 747)

Now, stealth work by hiding your signature return and make your radar think its is a different band other than Band 4. Say a F-22 flying signature is equal to a small bird, which mean you have to tune your radar to locate every small bird in order to pick up a F-22

Problem is, at this stage, unless you are working in LM, you DO NOT KNOW what kind of Radar image F-22 return on a radar screen when they are in full stealth mode. Couple with the fact that there are 1600 different speices of bird and around 2 to 300 different type of aircraft, not know what the F-22 looks like in a radar screen would mean you cannot pick it up when you actually see it.

Radar design to pick up noise, and process it, but stealth design to fool it, if you do not know what is the parameter of what F-22 is like, or what other stealth aircraft is like, how can you say it is more suited than F-22?

Also, what you know in your parameter when you design a thing is one thing, what you ACTUALLY made is another. If you care to study what F-22 was to USAF as a Fifth Generation Aircraft Platform, you would find the two are VERY DIFFERENT. Even YF-22 and F-22 are two different aircraft, how can you say you "Know" what is the Parameter of 5th Generation when you design the first one yourself?

Also, whatever Chinese have in their menu is their own way to design 5th Gen Aircraft, what US did is different, and what is the rest of the world did is another different set of parameter. How can you say since Chinese design a 5th Gen Aircraft, then Chinese would UNDERSTAND THE WHOLE 5TH GEN AIRCRAFT SPECTRUM ACROSS THE WORLD? They aren't uniform, you know that, right?



How about an example from ~10 years ago?

1st Gen Clarkfield i7 (i7 870) would beat 2nd gen (sandy Bridge) i5 2300 in benchmark

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Core+i7-870+@+2.93GHz
https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Core+i5-2300+@+2.80GHz

I can give you any example in any year as long as there is a record for it on any benchmark site.

Again, Moore's Law only define the technology of making die would advance, not the die itself is a guarantee better than in the newer model.

A small bird flying at supersonic speed or high subsonic speed is really hard to miss.

 

[gambit]

A small bird flying at supersonic speed or high subsonic speed is really hard to miss.

I addressed this YRS AGO on this forum. If what you said is true, then 'stealth' would have died out a long time ago.

 

[SME11B]

J-20 is obviously a newer design. EOTS and DSI are copied straight from F-35. Wing configuration is copied right from MiG 1.44. F-22 is pretty old design.

Older but still appears to be the best, it set the standard and still does.

You angered another person again? In fact I have to admit that your knowledge from your past job in the military is informative. However, the way you reply would spark off argument. You could have just replied nicely and nothing goes wrong.

The spratlys issue and current Trump becoming Democrats style (after his business revival plan failed), there might be J20 vs F22 faceoff after the artificial island expansion is complete. At least a squad of J20 should be stationed there. Since both are stealth, most likely they'll be spotted via satellites and fighters will be sent in to their coordinates. If j20 being scrambled to intercept the intruding F22, how far can their AESA detect each other based on your guess? Under 20, 10 or 5 miles before they could track and lock on to launch active radar missiles? Put aside IR guided missile.

I am not aware of satellite tracking of flying stealth aircraft but they may get an idea of what base is occupied as certain times. It would be hard to guess detection ranges because we know relatively little about f-22's signature and even less about j-20. I would guess that j-20's first generation aesa has less performance than f-22's and that f-22's radar signature is smaller but I don't know by how much. Also f-22 has some IR suppression and I don't know if J-20 does. If these things are remotely true that means f-22 gets first look and first shot all things being equal. Also F-22 has the edge I would guess in close in fighting but J-20 has more range. Until J-20 gets it's ws15s complete and we get some performance specs f-22 can out run j-20 but would need tanker support more.

 

[conworldus]

I thought all "vs" threads are banned?

 

[SME11B]

I thought all "vs" threads are banned?

Why would they be?

 

[KAL-EL]

Why would they be?

Unless there were some major announcement that I missed, I don't think they are.

However, in many of those types of "Vs." threads, there ends up unfortunately being moderate to severe amounts of trolling.

To the point where some people will take one side, not because it's technologically sound, but because it's against or for a specific country or countries Tech.

 

[SME11B]

Unless there were some major announcement that I missed, I don't think they are.

However, in many of those types of "Vs." threads, there ends up unfortunately being moderate to severe amounts of trolling.

To the point where some people will take one side, not because it's technologically sound, but because it's against or for a specific country or countries Tech.

And we can all see them for the tools they are, I don't see the problem.

 

[jhungary]

A small bird flying at supersonic speed or high subsonic speed is really hard to miss.

That point have been dealt with by many different angle.

Would suggest you go look up what mine and @gambit response are on the issue.

 

[kungfugymnast]

Older but still appears to be the best, it set the standard and still does.


I am not aware of satellite tracking of flying stealth aircraft but they may get an idea of what base is occupied as certain times. It would be hard to guess detection ranges because we know relatively little about f-22's signature and even less about j-20. I would guess that j-20's first generation aesa has less performance than f-22's and that f-22's radar signature is smaller but I don't know by how much. Also f-22 has some IR suppression and I don't know if J-20 does. If these things are remotely true that means f-22 gets first look and first shot all things being equal. Also F-22 has the edge I would guess in close in fighting but J-20 has more range. Until J-20 gets it's ws15s complete and we get some performance specs f-22 can out run j-20 but would need tanker support more.

F22 is indeed superior in RCS and maneuverability. There's rumor that former US stealth engineers were involved in J-20 design apart from the reverse engineered stealth tech from F117 shot down over Serbia. The J20 will need the WS15 engine for complete air superiority. If war really happens, either both unable to track and acquire lock on each other getting into visual range dogfight or one of them able to acquire lock earlier. It all depends on avionics in this situation. Won't know until they really seen actual combat.

 

[SME11B]

F22 is indeed superior in RCS and maneuverability. There's rumor that former US stealth engineers were involved in J-20 design apart from the reverse engineered stealth tech from F117 shot down over Serbia. The J20 will need the WS15 engine for complete air superiority. If war really happens, either both unable to track and acquire lock on each other getting into visual range dogfight or one of them able to acquire lock earlier. It all depends on avionics in this situation. Won't know until they really seen actual combat.

It depends on both stealth and avionics, f-22 most likely has better stealth given what info is available and probably better radar but I don't know about ESM and j-20 has that EOTS. I also doubt the avionics will match f-22/35, this is their first generation stealth and that also includes the stealth of the radar and things that are not so readily seen. I think j-20 will be detected first but j-20 will be more difficult to find than f-22 is used to. F-35s and other sensors will play a big role and helping f-22 find j-20 and teamwork will be more important but f-35 and all the other networked sensors have had this in mind for a while now. J-20 will use its better range and long range weapons to try to sneak in and shoot from as far as possible and try to make it back. I don't think j-20 wants to tangle with f-22/35.