F-16 Block 15MLU/50/52 Fighter

[Owais]

india will get all its MKI fleet to 10 by 2015 or onwards that gives PAF a lot of times for a fact all the F-16's will be delieved new and all the F-16's old would be upgraded by 2010 thats for sure....

who told you that MKI will be delivered by 2015 or onwards?? according to my inormation, all of them will be delivered before 2013. also, thunder will be delivered on the ratio of 1:1 between PLAAF and PAF. means we wll get 15-20 planes anually. so think your self how much time it will take.

Keep in mind that JF-17 production rate has set to be 25 to 30 thunders a year when the production is at full swing that too would be achieved by 2010 by PAC karma

what kind of jet? you are the first and the only one to tell me . I am still unable to find any related news.

Now there is this big rumor buzzing every where that besides the F-16,JF-17 and J-10, PAF is highly interested in procuring another Europian jet ranging from some where between 30 to 45 making 2 squadrens atleast so al hopes are high....:thumbsup:

 

[Bull]

Fighter jets will make Pakistan's debt soar

http://archive.gulfnews.com/opinion/columns/world/10058585.html
08/08/2006 09:48 PM | By Husain Haqqani, Special to Gulf News

The Bush administration has justified its decision to sell 36 F-16 Falcon fighter jets to Pakistan on grounds that it would increase American "access and influence" in Islamabad.
Pakistan's military regime, which will incur a debt of $5 billion to purchase the planes made by Lockheed Martin, considers the deal a boost for Pakistan's security. Close examination of the deal and of the history of similar US-Pakistan deals indicates that the stated goals of neither the US nor the Pakistani rulers are likely to be advanced with the F-16 purchase.
If anything, the F-16s are a pay off from Washington for General Pervez Musharraf's military regime a sort of "toys for the boys" gift that is expected to extend the regime's survival. That is all that concessional arms transfers under previous pro-US Pakistani military regimes have achieved.
Let us first look at the F-16 deal from the perspective of Pakistani national security. Not long ago, Musharraf declared that the greatest threat to Pakistani security comes from extremist ideologues and terrorists within the country. Domestic extremism in Pakistan would be fought more effectively with investment in the neglected social sectors. A sum of $ 5 billion could go a long way in expanding education, healthcare and poverty alleviation programmes.
If the purpose is to locate and liquidate hardened terrorists, the F-16 Falcon is not the best weapon to identify, isolate or even kill individual terrorists. Most major Al Qaida figures arrested in Pakistan and handed over to the US were arrested in major Pakistani cities.
The F-16's sophisticated air-to-air, air-to-surface and anti-ship missiles have little to contribute in the battle in the neighbourhoods of Westridge, Rawalpindi (where Khalid Shaikh Mohammad was found) or Defence Society, Karachi (where Ramzi Bin Al Shibh was caught). They have limited value in Waziristan or other tribal areas on the Afghan border.
Pakistan's traditional security threat is believed to come from India but here too Pakistan will not get a bang for its buck. The Pentagon's statement accompanying notification of the F-16 sale to the US Congress has stated unequivocally that Pakistan's F-16 purchase would "not significantly reduce India's quantitative or qualitative military advantage" and that it would neither affect the regional balance of power nor introduce a new technology in the region.
John Hillen, the US Assistant Secretary of State for Political-Military Affairs, told a recent Congressional hearing that the version of the plane being sold to Pakistan "will not be nuclear capable" and explained that the Pentagon's notification to Congress had "enumerated the technologies that were not, that would usually go with an F-16, that are not part of this deal". According to Hillen, these withheld technologies "include ones that would allow the F-16 to be used in offensive ways to penetrate airspace of another country that was highly defended".
If the F-16 will not enhance Pakistan's military capability against domestic terrorism or confer it some qualitative or quantitative advantage in its unfortunate perennial conflict with India, why add to Pakistan's debt burden for such expensive jets? Hillen's explanation, repeated in private and public conversations by other American officials, focuses on US influence over Pakistan.
Secure leverage
The military is the most powerful institution in Pakistan and military sales, backed by large American credits, are a means of pleasing the Pakistani military. This, in turn, is supposed to secure leverage for the United States.
The US has dreamt of leverage over Pakistan's foreign policy in return for military equipment and economic aid ever since the days of the Cold War alliances, SEATO and CENTO. Contrary to the assumption of American officials that military aid translates into leverage, Pakistan's military has always managed to take military aid without ever fully giving the US what it desires.
If Pakistan's security policy was determined by a representative government and not by a Praetorian army, the ability to make independent foreign policy decisions would be a good thing from Pakistan's point of view even if that is not what the Americans seek.
But given the ascendancy of the military in Pakistan's decision-making, the military aid relationship with Washington has become a contributing factor to Pakistan's internal dysfunction.
The availability of weapons systems that enhance the Pakistani military's prestige and therefore its ability to continue to dominate national life offered by the US to secure limited Pakistani cooperation in US grand strategy allows Pakistan's military rulers to believe that they can continue to promote risky domestic, regional and pan-Islamic policies. It undermines the Pakistani military's willingness to negotiate realistically with India without bolstering Pakistan's actual military prowess against its much larger neighbour.
The people of Pakistan, and the long-term US-Pakistan relationship, would benefit far more if Washington made it clear that its support for Pakistan's security would be contingent upon Pakistan having an elected government that determines Pakistan's real security needs in a transparent manner.

Husain Haqqani is Director of Boston University's Centre for International Relations and Co-Chair of the Hudson Institute's Project on Islam and Democracy. He is the author of the Carnegie Endowment book "Pakistan Between Mosque and Military".

 

[Best of the Best]

Leave out personal remarks

I would prefer u to do the same charity beings at home.

The F-16s 56+32 in inventory will not be enough to match the current IAF of 2006.The gap still remains.

Really what makes u so sure about that besides that what makes u sure we wont precure anymore F-16's i dont remember u being the PAF's airforce chief like i said what makes u sure we wont buy anything beyond 36 F-16's????

You cannot give assurances here,as things arent in your hand.If u say something then show us on what you are basing such an argument.
JF17s will be produced at the rate of 25-30 a years but from which yr onwards?If they start in 2007 mid by 2013 they will have 150-200 JF 17s.And by then IAF would also have 140 MKIs.

It has been stated at different places that thunders production would be at full swing by 2009 has also been stated by PAF air chief u can google around and search if u want too...

Are you speaking abt infra...IAF has one of the most diverse fleets in the world.Probable they are the only ones who are operating british,french and russian planes in the same fleet.I dont think it will get more complicated.Moreover if they choose Mg29OVT,then this argument goes out of the window.

Diversified fleet ya right give me a break IAF ground crews go to hell coz of so many types not to mention the fact the IAF can only have half of its fleet in the air at war time this shows u how diversified IAF's fleet really is..... i rest my case.

More???
Now doesnt the "infrastruture and getting used to argument" apply to PAF ?

No it doesnt unlike IAF, PAF doesnt buy anything it cant swallow.

 

[Best of the Best]

who told you that MKI will be delivered by 2015 or onwards?? according to my inormation, all of them will be delivered before 2013. also, thunder will be delivered on the ratio of 1:1 between PLAAF and PAF. means we wll get 15-20 planes anually. so think your self how much time it will take.

i have read at several places that IAF will complete its MKI fleet of 190 by 2015 that too from indian sources so i take there word for it as this has been stated by the IAF chief him self several times......the argument about u saying thunder will be delieved between PAF and PLAAF is until PAC karma doesnt have the production facility as soon as PAC karma becomes ready PAF wont need to share the production with PLAAF since China can open more production lines and fullfill there requirment of FC-1 keep in mind that JF-17 would be very different from the standard FC-1 of the PLAAF especailly the models that would be made after the 1st 50 which later would to be upgraded...

what kind of jet? you are the first and the only one to tell me . I am still unable to find any related news.

Well its hinted to be europian there was a article on net not more then 3 months a go stating that if the Navy bought Marlin class sub's then PAF too would be interested in buying 36 Rafales(how i have no idea)...besides that there are many more rumor's on this subject but this wont happen any where before 2010

 

[RAPTOR]

Well its hinted to be europian there was a article on net not more then 3 months a go stating that if the Navy bought Marlin class sub's then PAF too would be interested in buying 36 Rafales(how i have no idea)...besides that there are many more rumor's on this subject but this wont happen any where before 2010

Thats only if Saudi Arabia also buys the Marlin and the Rafales from France. Talks are ongoing so who knows. Recently Saudi was going to finance Morrocco's purchase of 18 Rafales from Dassault...dont know what became of that.
If PN buys the U-214 Subs from Germany, then i think the EuroFighter is a possibility....although its going to come with more political strings attached.

 

[Best of the Best]

Thats only if Saudi Arabia also buys the Marlin and the Rafales from France. Talks are ongoing so who knows. Recently Saudi was going to finance Morrocco's purchase of 18 Rafales from Dassault...dont know what became of that.
If PN buys the U-214 Subs from Germany, then i think the EuroFighter is a possibility....although its going to come with more political strings attached.

Last i read the Dassault didnt want to sell the Rafale to Morrocco they simply said nooo and yes i agree with ur statment there, good to see somebody over here speaks my language...:thumbsup:

 

[Bull]

I would prefer u to do the same charity beings at home..

What ever....:whatever:

Really what makes u so sure about that besides that what makes u sure we wont precure anymore F-16's i dont remember u being the PAF's airforce chief like i said what makes u sure we wont buy anything beyond 36 F-16's????.

Because they arent offering you anything more..even if they do on a later stage the negotiations and procurement/assembly is going to make it beyond the 2013-2015 window that we are discussing abt.

It has been stated at different places that thunders production would be at full swing by 2009 has also been stated by PAF air chief u can google around and search if u want too....

As pointed out in the previous post its going to be 1-1 for PLAAF and PAF so u end up getting half of it.Now see 10-15 planes a year from year 2009(?) onwards how much you will have by 2013?

Diversified fleet ya right give me a break IAF ground crews go to hell coz of so many types not to mention the fact the IAF can only have half of its fleet in the air at war time this shows u how diversified IAF's fleet really is..... i rest my case.

Which war time?

No it doesnt unlike IAF, PAF doesnt buy anything it cant swallow.

You havent bought anything for quite past.so i will give this to you, you havnt bought anything bcoz you couldnt swallow anything.

 

[Bull]

i have read at several places that IAF will complete its MKI fleet of 190 by 2015 that too from indian sources so i take there word for it as this has been stated by the IAF chief him self several times

Its delivery period has been cut short,check your sources once more.

 

[Averroes]

Its delivery period has been cut short,check your sources once more.

Who the hell cares about when they will be delivered. Doesn't really play much of a role if its early or late, they already have them and will have a huge amount of them.

 

[TexasJohn]

I read this in the Daily Times today. It's an article by Kamran Safi. Is there any truth to this? I am asking any Air Force types to answer this, please

“What worries him specifically (other than the US being able to stop the supply of spares whenever) is that these F-16s will not have EW (electronic warfare) programming capabilities for its RWR (radar warning receiver). Our F-16s have a pre-installed threat library that is able to identify only non-NATO aircraft using its RWR. It has been observed that our F-16s could not detect being locked onto by a Mirage 2000 (since that’s a NATO aircraft) while the Chinese built F-6 could. This was because of the above-mentioned limitation in the EW capability of the F-16 supplied (i.e. it cannot be reprogrammed). What this would mean is that an enemy airplane fitted with BVR (beyond visual range) missiles, can lock on to our F-16s and fire a missile without the F-16 being able to take evasive measures. This would make even the most sophisticated aircraft (with all the manoeuvrability in the world) a sitting duck.

“His concern is that in the current technological revolution, the age-old concept of dogfights and pilot’s skill is no longer an integral part of having mastery of the skies. Unfortunately, most of our PAF high ups are usually GD pilots and have a “jingoistic” vein where they think their skill and superior manoeuvrability is all they need to teach the enemy a lesson. They don’t seem to appreciate that the paradigm has shifted in air warfare.

“Having no capability to re-program the EW systems in these most advanced fighters is like giving someone a super-duper Pentium Core Duo system with a 29-inch LCD screen and the best sound system in the world; and then to only allow the user to browse the Web on it. Using this same analogy, wouldn’t it be preferable to have a Pentium 3 with the capability of writing your own code and interfacing your own peripheral devices?

“The bottom line is that we want to ask the government this question: ‘Is the PAF being provided the capability to reprogram the EW threat library?’ A simple yes or no is all we need because then we can hold them accountable to a folly that may cost us, not only the billions spent on the deal (and the millions received in kickbacks?), but also the fate of our nation in the near future.

 

[Munir]

This article is posted in most forums like pdf and pakdef. I don't see any reason to repeat the same. Like usual there are people with political agenda. Tell me what option Pakistan has and whether they are that stupid that they bought another bad item? F16 is a potent weapon system. Pakistan will get those with lots of technology and weapons. Whining about a bad deal is pathetic. Just flying mig21 (P/Pg) or outdated Mirages is even more stupid and tell me how many planes can cope with block52? MKI? I doubt that. And more? I rest my case.

 

[TexasJohn]

This article is posted in most forums like pdf and pakdef. I don't see any reason to repeat the same. Like usual there are people with political agenda. Tell me what option Pakistan has and whether they are that stupid that they bought another bad item? F16 is a potent weapon system. Pakistan will get those with lots of technology and weapons. Whining about a bad deal is pathetic. Just flying mig21 (P/Pg) or outdated Mirages is even more stupid and tell me how many planes can cope with block52? MKI? I doubt that. And more? I rest my case.

Hence the question. The story of " kill switches" on various American hardware is very widely circulated and talked about. In your opinion, does Kamran Safi's article hold any truth to it? especially the part about EW?

Block52 vs MKI??? that would be an interesting thread in itself don't you think? The 16s did not do too good in Cope India exercises, btw.

 

[Best of the Best]

What ever....:whatever:

Happy that u replied like a sane person altho rude but still humian..

Because they arent offering you anything more..even if they do on a later stage the negotiations and procurement/assembly is going to make it beyond the 2013-2015 window that we are discussing abt.

Then Again when our ACM says we will our recieve new F-16's with in 3 years i will take his words rather then your's.

As pointed out in the previous post its going to be 1-1 for PLAAF and PAF so u end up getting half of it.Now see 10-15 planes a year from year 2009(?) onwards how much you will have by 2013?

Which war time?

Sorry but i wasnt speaking french that u dont understand the word Wartime..

You havent bought anything for quite past.so i will give this to you, you havnt bought anything bcoz you couldnt swallow anything.

You see there is saying its better to stay quite then to talk silly, now what do you excatly mean we couldnt swallow our F-16's got sanctioned in the 90's, USA wasnt willing to sell us F-16's until now.....what do u call 200 JF-17's,
36 J-10 and 36 F-16's.....unlike you we didnt have mother Russia to sell us MKI's in the 90's......we can swallow a hell lt more then u can.

 

[Best of the Best]

I read this in the Daily Times today. It's an article by Kamran Safi. Is there any truth to this? I am asking any Air Force types to answer this, please

“What worries him specifically (other than the US being able to stop the supply of spares whenever) is that these F-16s will not have EW (electronic warfare) programming capabilities for its RWR (radar warning receiver). Our F-16s have a pre-installed threat library that is able to identify only non-NATO aircraft using its RWR. It has been observed that our F-16s could not detect being locked onto by a Mirage 2000 (since that’s a NATO aircraft) while the Chinese built F-6 could. This was because of the above-mentioned limitation in the EW capability of the F-16 supplied (i.e. it cannot be reprogrammed). What this would mean is that an enemy airplane fitted with BVR (beyond visual range) missiles, can lock on to our F-16s and fire a missile without the F-16 being able to take evasive measures. This would make even the most sophisticated aircraft (with all the manoeuvrability in the world) a sitting duck.

“His concern is that in the current technological revolution, the age-old concept of dogfights and pilot’s skill is no longer an integral part of having mastery of the skies. Unfortunately, most of our PAF high ups are usually GD pilots and have a “jingoistic” vein where they think their skill and superior manoeuvrability is all they need to teach the enemy a lesson. They don’t seem to appreciate that the paradigm has shifted in air warfare.

“Having no capability to re-program the EW systems in these most advanced fighters is like giving someone a super-duper Pentium Core Duo system with a 29-inch LCD screen and the best sound system in the world; and then to only allow the user to browse the Web on it. Using this same analogy, wouldn’t it be preferable to have a Pentium 3 with the capability of writing your own code and interfacing your own peripheral devices?

“The bottom line is that we want to ask the government this question: ‘Is the PAF being provided the capability to reprogram the EW threat library?’ A simple yes or no is all we need because then we can hold them accountable to a folly that may cost us, not only the billions spent on the deal (and the millions received in kickbacks?), but also the fate of our nation in the near future.

For a person whose known about jets fore more then 8 years now that article is Bull Shi*t if u see all F-16's are being upgraded with friend and foe systems and the new ones will come with them, now RWR are present on PAF F-7P's how the bloody hell wont they be on the F-16's there is something known as common sence, people just dont use it anymore any aircarft without RWR is dead meat so whatever that is mentioned in this article is crap as statements such as these have already been rejected by the PAF...:wall:

 

[Best of the Best]

Hence the question. The story of " kill switches" on various American hardware is very widely circulated and talked about. In your opinion, does Kamran Safi's article hold any truth to it? especially the part about EW

No i do not believe in kill switches if that was the case nobody would buy american hardware as far as EW suits go yes there were reports and all even some congress men were told about PAF not having this but that has been rejected by the PAF i ask u what will PAF use bunker busters and JSOW and JDAM's on if that was the case????

Block52 vs MKI??? that would be an interesting thread in itself don't you think? The 16s did not do too good in Cope India exercises, btw.

Sorry to disappoint you but in Cope india excercises the MKI faced the F-16 twice in which they had 2 counters once the MKI made a kill the other time a F-16 made a kill on the MKI that proves my point. Besides that the pilots from cope india came on F-16.net and they said that they were impressed by the MKI but they said F-16 could hold its own against the MKI anyday anytime.