F-16 Block 15MLU/50/52 Fighter

[TexasJohn]

I was on F-16.net quite a bit and never once had a pilot say" F-16 could hold its own against the MKI anyday anytime". If I missed it, please send me the link.

As far as EW "friendly/foe" signatures go, that has always been a tough call. Think of what would happen in a case of Israeli F-16s / F-15s flying against Saudi F-15s? Each country's hardware does in fact have a unique signature! That is what the guy was trying to say. What if India also bought F-16s for their 126 MRCAs? A Block 70 with AESA has already been offered to them. What EW signature do you use then?

 

[Best of the Best]

I was on F-16.net quite a bit and never once had a pilot say" F-16 could hold its own against the MKI anyday anytime". If I missed it, please send me the link.

Sorry that u missed out on the F-16 conversation on cope india where F-16's pilot indeed did show up but there posts were delated due to the sensitive information data in their posts there is a Mod name Asif something over there u can Pm and ask him he would assure u of that...

As far as EW "friendly/foe" signatures go, that has always been a tough call. Think of what would happen in a case of Israeli F-16s / F-15s flying against Saudi F-15s? Each country's hardware does in fact have a unique signature! That is what the guy was trying to say. What if India also bought F-16s for their 126 MRCAs? A Block 70 with AESA has already been offered to them. What EW signature do you use then?

The answer to ur question is below courtesy of Syed Saad from PakDef;

"What worries him specifically (other than the US being able to stop the supply of spares whenever) is that these F-16s will not have EW (electronic warfare) programming capabilities for its RWR (radar warning receiver). Our F-16s have a pre-installed threat library that is able to identify only non-NATO aircraft using its RWR. It has been observed that our F-16s could not detect being locked onto by a Mirage 2000 (since that’s a NATO aircraft) while the Chinese built F-6 could. This was because of the above-mentioned limitation in the EW capability of the F-16 supplied (i.e. it cannot be reprogrammed). What this would mean is that an enemy airplane fitted with BVR (beyond visual range) missiles, can lock on to our F-16s and fire a missile without the F-16 being able to take evasive measures. This would make even the most sophisticated aircraft (with all the manoeuvrability in the world) a sitting duck."

Now sir, as a patriotic Pakistani, it is also my duty to tell you and hopefully the Pakistani public through you that this is as inaccurate an analysis as it gets. PAF F-16s have and will have EW capabilities. The only difference is that the F-16s now being purchased do not have a component called Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM). The idea behind this is that while flying the F-16s over enemy territory, in case the F-16 is subjected to electronic jamming by the opposing airforce, the F-16 is able to record these jamming signals and replay them back to the enemy in order to confuse them to the point that they no longer consider the F-16 a threat (essentially the F-16 is cloaked by the enemy's own jamming signals). In the absence of DRFM, what tends to happen is that PAF would be flying its ELINT aircraft (Falcon DA-20s now and Erieye in the future) that are capable of recording the same jamming signals. Upon returning to the base, these signals are simply loaded up onto the EW pods (which essentially is called updating the threat library) of the F-16s (current ones in the service with the F-16s are ALQ-131) and then these F-16s can cater to the threat from additional types of enemy jamming. So not all is lost. The DRFM is considered to be a very new technology and the Americans are unwilling to part with it at this time. However it does not take anything away from the F-16s from defending Pakistani airspace.

RWR is a totally different thing and without a shadow of doubt I can tell you that a RWR is available on all Pakistani F-16s, Mirages and F-7s (we actually produce the RWRs at Kamra for the F-7s).

As you can see that the DRFM capability is a plus in strike missions over India where in real-time the F-16s can playback the jamming signals and confuse Indian airdefences, however in the current situation, PAF lacks a good defensive fighter. This is what the F-16 provides to the PAF in the form of the F-16 armed with AIM-120 BVR missile. So yes Pakistan's precious resources are being spent on the F-16s, however how do you cater to the continuous build-up of arms on the other side of the border? Has the other side shown a lot of willingness to make peace with us? So far sitting here in the US, I only see GoP making peace overtures and in the end, getting no response from the Indians. So perhaps a bit of reality minus the idealism should find place in your letters.

 

[TexasJohn]

Sorry that u missed out on the F-16 conversation on cope india where F-16's pilot indeed did show up but there posts were delated due to the sensitive information data in their posts there is a Mod name Asif something over there u can Pm and ask him he would assure u of that...
;

How convenient....

The answer to ur question is below courtesy of Syed Saad from PakDef;

I don't see any posts.. what are you talking about?

 

[Munir]

Texasjohn, you are not located in Texas. Are you Indian IT person located in the east?

 

[TexasJohn]

Texasjohn, you are not located in Texas. Are you Indian IT person located in the east?

wow! why would you say that? Arlington, TX is the ONLY town where I have lived since 1979. I am in the IT field. I work for the large Hospital complex here in Dallas as a network admin!

 

[TexasJohn]

Best of Best - very good post about DRFMs. Isn't re-loading the recording a pain though? I can see that changing.. mobile jammers, Phalcon AWACs etc.

 

[Munir]

Let us put it simple. Without those memory banks one needs other ECM recorderding planes and one needs to return to base to reprogram the ECM. It is less flexible. Yet with that many planes around (AWACS, ELINT) and probably alternatives (JF17/J10) it is not huge problem cause the opponent has not much superior options either. If PAF gets BVR communication, radar signatures of MKI then the war is not onesided at all.

 

[Neo]

F-16s sale to Pakistan till next month: Pentagon

WASHINGTON (updated on: August 11, 2006, 23:07 PST): Pakistan appears close to signing a potential $5 billion deal for an advanced F-16 fighter-jet package, despite stepped-up security demands pushed by US lawmakers, the official responsible for the sale said on Friday.

Air Force Lt. Gen. Jeffrey Kohler, head of the Pentagon's Defence Security Co-operation Agency, said he expected a government-to-government pact locking in the purchase to be wrapped up as early as this month or the middle of next month.

The agreement would clear the way for the US Air Force to complete a so-called foreign military sales contract with Lockheed Martin Corp., which builds the F-16, as soon as November, he said in reply to queries from Reuters.

The sale would bolster President Pervez Musharraf in backing the US-declared global war on terror and expand US access, influence and leverage, US officials have said.

But Washington has demanded what it calls unprecedented steps to safeguard the advanced F-16C/D models, their spare parts and munitions from third parties -- especially China, which has closed military ties to Pakistan.

Despite these stiff precautions, Pakistan would get a fighter said by Washington to be stripped of a cutting-edge offensive capability, supposedly incapable of delivering nuclear weapons and subject to US government say on when it could be flown overseas.

On June 28, the Bush administration formally notified Congress of plans to sell Pakistan up to 36 Block 50/52 Falcon fighters, the most advanced F-16 flown by US forces. Related sales involved upgrades for Pakistan's older-model F-16s and munitions, including up to 500 AIM-120C AMRAAM air-to-air missiles, in a package with a combined value of up to $5 billion if all options are exercised.

The initial security plan for the F-16s was presented to Congress on July 20 by John Hillen, the assistant secretary of state for political-military affairs, who described it as "extraordinary" and "unprecedented."

In testimony to the House of Representatives' International Relations Committee, Hillen highlighted segregation of the aircraft from third country-origin aircraft and munitions, semi-annual F-16 inventories and more frequent looks at associated systems by US personnel.

Still, the House panel's top Republican and Democrat demanded even more US monitoring and oversight. Rep. Tom Lantos, the top Democrat, said he supported the sale, but was worried about technology security in a country "that produced the A.Q Khan nuclear network."

After a follow up July 20 closed-door session with Lantos and others, Bush administration officials beefed up the F-16 related security plan in ways not made public.

"We responded to reasonable requests from members of Congress," Kohler said by email through a spokesman. "And the changes should not be viewed as onerous by Pakistan."

The Pakistani embassy declined to comment.

Hillen, in his testimony, disclosed the United States was withholding unspecified technologies "that would usually go with an F16," including ones that would let it "be used in offensive ways to penetrate air space of another country that was highly defended."

In addition, F-16 flights outside of Pakistan, including exercises with others, "must be approved in advance by the US government," he said.

 

[TexasJohn]

Let us put it simple. Without those memory banks one needs other ECM recorderding planes and one needs to return to base to reprogram the ECM. It is less flexible. Yet with that many planes around (AWACS, ELINT) and probably alternatives (JF17/J10) it is not huge problem cause the opponent has not much superior options either. If PAF gets BVR communication, radar signatures of MKI then the war is not onesided at all.

Good point. I would think that with a datalink, the need to return to base is eliminated. Since the IAF has already done so, it would make sense to do that with the PAF also, don't you think?

btw, still curious as to why you thought I don't live in Texas!!

 

[Best of the Best]

Best of Best - very good post about DRFMs. Isn't re-loading the recording a pain though? I can see that changing.. mobile jammers, Phalcon AWACs etc.

Thank you

 

[Munir]

btw, still curious as to why you thought I don't live in Texas!!

As far as I know your computer is located somewhere in NY. Nothing wrong with that. USA is a big and nice country so you can stay on any side.

 

[Bull]

opponent has not much superior options either. If PAF gets BVR communication, radar signatures of MKI then the war is not onesided at all.

You are speaking abt something you dont have to fight with something your opponent already have!!!

 

[Munir]

Bully,

Here you are shouting a statement that has no value. You are pretending that India is a superpower and anything that Pakistan has is pathetic.
Let me entertain you shortly. If you look at the broader picture you will see that both nations have nukes and multiple delivery items. Both nations have more then a few point defence fighters. Chance of anyone leaving unharmed is practicly zero. Now somehow we can forget that and see only PAF and IAF.

What makes IAF so good? Those old mig21 that are shortlegged? Those Jaguars that antique? Those mig23/27 that are rusting? Those gone mig25? Or those few mirage 2000-H? The oldest versions of mig29? The only thing one can brag about is the MKI and ecen that is not superlicious. It is a big plane and in the PAF-IAF arena one needs to see whether it will deliver results. Do mind that it is not BRF where you can arrogantly shout. Either show evidence or logic. What does India posses that should make Pakistan shaking? Those two decades left to produce imported MKI? Those imported Israeli AWACS?

India is waiting to produce a basic jet. India failed even in producing a basic tank and now copied Pakistan with Tank-Ex (much lighter then Arjun). There is not one single arena where we should see India as a superpower or superpower to be. India is not able to produce high tech weapons and sofar it has never exported anything like that. Its airforce lacks trainers and high tech planes. Oops I forgot, it even lacks pilots...

And I can conclude that it lacks intellegent supporters on the net... You remind me of Harry. Uknow. the notorious mod on Keymag that shouted that Brahmos could fly mach 3 just a few feet above ground... Sure. Even when corrected by specialists he kept his imagination. The most fun part is the paperplane story. We heard so often that Fc1 was a paperplane and LCA was JSF competitor. Well. I made a nice movie of these two...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2853639506896885406
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6759425224735284123

Let us think again when you talk about India being further...

 

[TexasJohn]

I like the song on the LCA clip!! That brings back some college day toga party memories!!!

 

[EagleEyes]

Pakistan not to transfer F-16s technology to China

Islamabad - Pakistan said Monday that it would purchase 44 multirole F-16 aircraft from the United States but dismissed fears about a transfer of F-16 technology to a third country.

'We will not transfer technology of F-16s to anybody but, at the same time, hope that the US will also not violate the terms of agreement for delivery of the jets to Pakistan,' the chief of the Pakistan Air Force, Tanveer Mehmud Ahmad, said at a press briefing in Islamabad.
He was commenting on media reports that recently quoted US congressmen as expressing concern that Pakistan might transfer F-16 technology to China. Their fears have led committees in the US House of Representatives and the Senate to plan hearings on the sale, which has been approved by President George W Bush's administration.

Pakistan and China have close military ties and have jointly manufactured a JF-17 'Thunder' aircraft, which had its inaugural operational flight in May in the Chinese city of Chengdu.

Ahmad said Pakistan always adhered to the terms of agreements on procurement of military equipment with all countries, including the United States, adding there will be no change in this policy while purchasing the F-16s.

The fears by the US lawmakers followed admissions by AQ Khan, the father of Pakistan's nuclear-weapons programme, that he ran a nuclear-smuggling ring for years.

Ahmad denied that the Pakistan Air Force had asked the United States for transfer of technology of the F-16s. 'We are only interested in achieving capability of a complete overhaul of F-16 engines at our aeronautical complex,' he said.

Located about 80 kilometres north-west of Islamabad, the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex is also overhauling the whole range of fighter aircraft in the Air Force's inventory.

Ahmad, who assumed command of the Air Force early this year, said Pakistan had asked the United States to deliver 18 F-16s of the latest C and D versions and 26 used jets.

'The purchase of 18 brand-new F-16s will cost 2 billion dollars,' the air force chief said and expressed the hope that the jets might join the Air Force fleet after three years.

However, he did not disclose how much it would cost to buy the 26 used F-16s but said he hoped they could be put to use by the Air Force within 15 to 18 months.

He said Pakistan had also sought US help in upgrading its present fleet of 34 F-16s under a programme that will cost about 1 billion dollars.
At the same time, Ahmad said Pakistan was also exploring other sources to procure combat aircraft. 'But the reason to go back to the old source - the US - is that Washington has repeatedly talked of establishing a strategic and long-term partnership with Pakistan,' he said.

http://news.monstersandcritics.com/...tan_not_to_transfer_F-16s_technology_to_China