Export bids for JF-17 Thunder Multirole Lightweight Fighter Aircraft

[BATMAN]

Gift at the prices that they quoted. i think this is some wierd way of gifting things. My friend you have to know how the french deal and they are not all that sweet. you can tell by the stalled discussions on the rafale deal. The ferench may have found their match in the banniya. Well done Indians.
Araz
Araz

Depends, what is the figure in your mind and what are you considering against that figure.

We all know banniya wants 120 jets, with 100% tech. transfer, incl. engines, local production facility, pilot & technician trainings, life time spares and support in developing Teja.

Now for all this we only know an allocated figure, which is $10billion.

IMO, $10billion is the cost of every thing minus jets and hence i count jets for free.

 

[BATMAN]

with chinese engine sir....not rd93 (which is PK specific)

If my memory is correct... China has re-export permissions in place for some nations and Egypt is one of those.

 

[Munir]

High cost of Mirage-2000 upgrade raises eyebrows
Rajat Pandit, TNN Mar 5, 2013, 04.18AM IST


Tags:
the rest|Mirage-2000 Upgradation|Mirage-2000 Jets|Lok Sabha|Defence ministry|Dassault Aviation|Cost of Mirage Upgradation|AK Antony

(The overall upgrade programme&#8230
NEW DELHI: Should India have simply gone in for new fighters rather than upgrading its 51 Mirage-2000s at an exorbitant cost? This question came to the fore once again on Monday with defence minister AK Antony telling Parliament that the upgrade cost for each jet was Rs 167 crore.

This when the last lot of the French-origin Mirage-2000s - their induction began in the mid-1980s - contracted by India in 2000 cost just Rs 133 crore apiece. However, Antony, in a written reply to Lok Sabha, said, "Applying an escalation of 3.5% per annum as per the pricing policy review committee, to the contracted cost of the year 2000, it works out to be Rs 195 crore at 2011 levels. Thus, the upgrade has been undertaken at 85% of the aircraft's escalated cost."

However, the Rs 167-crore figure does not give the full picture. The overall upgrade programme of the Mirage-2000s is pegged at Rs 17,547 crore, with the first two fighters being upgraded in France and the rest (49) by Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) under transfer of technology (ToT). If this figure is taken into account, then each Mirage upgrade will cost Rs 344 crore.

India has inked two separate contracts in the upgrade programme, which kicked off last year with the help of French companies Dassault Aviation (aircraft manufacturer) and Thales (weapons systems integrator).

In July 2011, the upgrade programme was finalized at Rs 10,947 crore, which included both the French and HAL work-shares. Then, early last year, the second contract worth around Rs 6,600 crore for 490 advanced fire-and-forget MICA (interception and aerial combat missiles) systems to arm the fighters was finalized with French armament major MBDA. The overall upgrade package may even cross the Rs 20,000 crore-mark over the decade it will take to complete it, as earlier reported by TOI.

However, both MoD and IAF - down to just 34 fighter squadrons when over 44 are required to deter both Pakistan and China - maintain the upgrade will ensure the multi-role Mirages become "virtually new fighters" that will "remain current and potent" for over two decades more.

"Mirages have performed superbly since induction. IAF is going in for new acquisitions, which take a long time in our circumstances, as well as upgrades to retain its combat readiness," said an official.

Holding major upgrade decisions are "suitably negotiated" in a competitive environment, Antony admitted, "However, this (Mirage) upgrade programme also includes fitment of advanced multi-mode target radar, reconfigured glass cockpit and advance avionics, state-of-the-art electronic warfare system and capability to launch advanced missiles."

Even as it progressively inducts 272 Sukhoi-30MKIs contracted for Rs 55,717 crore, IAF is also undertaking upgrade of its 63 MiG-29s at a cost of $964 million deal inked with Russia in March, 2008.

The force is also heavily banking upon the almost $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project to acquire 126 French Rafale fighters from Dassault, the final commercial negotiations for which are now in progress.

 

[Munir]

And some more...

RIP Rafale Deal?


BY APPU K. SOMAN / IN FEATURED, FOREIGN AFFAIRS / MARCH 12, 2013
A bribery scandal now unfolding relating to the import of AW101 helicopters for the Indian Air Force (IAF) has reportedly made India’s Ministry of Defense (MoD) proceed “with extreme caution” in the processing of the procurement deal for Dassault Rafale fighters. MoD’s caution is warranted. Within MoD itself, there was some dissent initially over the way the financial estimates of the shortlisted bidders were allegedly calculated to favor the Rafale, but these were quickly dismissed. Investigators of the chopper scam have found some earlier links between one of the middlemen involved in this deal and Dassault. That connection ended more than a decade ago and is not relevant to the Rafale acquisition. A thorough probe might well unearth serious improprieties in the Rafale deal. But MoD need not wait for it. The requirement for the procurement of a new fourth generation medium combat aircraft no longer exists and the likely current cost of the Rafale acquisition makes it an unwise choice now.

The IAF raised the need for 126 medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) more than a decade ago. After many twists and turns, MoD issued a request for proposal (RfP)in August 2007. An elaborate technical evaluation eliminated all the contenders except the Rafale and the Euro fighter Typhoon. Of the two, the Rafale’s bid was lower. The reaction in India to the selection of the Rafale was one of self-congratulation on conducting allegedly the world’s best fighter evaluation. Defence Minister A. K. Antony came in for fulsome praise for leaving the technical vetting to the IAF. MoD’s role up to this point, apparently, was limited to totaling up the various cost estimates submitted by the two vendors. The excessive praise for the evaluation process misses the point that the processing of arms procurement proposals is not an Olympic sport. You do not get points for technical excellence. What counts is the outcome, not the process. The question to ask in the case of the MMRCA bid is, did the procurement process result in the selection of the best aircraft to meet India’s needs (not necessarily the best of all aircrafts) at the most cost-effective (not necessarily the lowest) price? The answer to this question is not simple.

Whichever aircraft is chosen would serve with the IAF until beyond 2050. Being a fourth generation aircraft, the Rafale, like all its competitors in the MMRCA bid, would be obsolete long before that. Since India would be acquiring two fifth generation aircrafts—one being developed in partnership with Russia and the other being developed domestically—the MMRCA is essentially an interim buy, contemplated initially because of the delay in the development of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). Rather than exploring a cost-effective option—a point Ashley Tellis made—the technical vetting tilted the scales in favor of the Rafale, the second costliest aircraft on offer, by eliminating all the cheaper options. The process, for all its technical excellence, remains highly opaque. Most likely, the requirements specified capabilities that only the Rafale and the Typhoon could have met. All that we know is that the list was pared down to the Rafale and the Typhoon after technical evaluation (full details of which are not known) and that of the two, the Rafale was the cheaper one. Again, we do not know cheaper by exactly how much, with reports putting the difference at $5 million to as much as 25%. In any case, the technical evaluation process guaranteed the selection of the Rafale.

It has been known for several years that China was working on stealth aircraft. Jane’s Defence Weekly reported as far back as December 2002 that China was developing a heavy stealth fighter. While India’s lumbering evaluation of the MMRCA bids dragged on, China unveiled two stealth aircrafts in the last two years. Yet that knowledge had no apparent effect on the MMRCA process. If a deal is signed with Dassault in late 2013, the first of the Rafales will be delivered in late 2016—three years after signing of the contract. Meanwhile, the LCA will enter squadron service in 2015, thus eliminating the raison d’etre for the MMRCA acquisition. Deliveries of the rest will continue into the 2030s. By then, stealth aircraft and UAVs would have proliferated. The Rafale would have become obsolete by the time it enters IAF service in large numbers. The fifth generation fighter India is co-producing with Russia (with each passing day it looks less and less like a co production, but that is another story) is scheduled to begin production in India in 2022 even as India is producing Rafales. The Russian version of it would be available even earlier. Acquiring the Rafale when India is producing a fifth generation aircraftof roughly the same cost but much greater capabilities makes no sense.

The 126 Rafales in the initial procurement was originally estimated to cost about $10.24 billion as of the RfP date, or about $81.3 million per fighter. These estimates were clearly unrealistic. The Costis already rumored to have doubled. By the time the contract is finalized, the cost could go still higher. Recent reports say India is contemplating increasing the order to 189. That could take the total cost to at least $30 billion. A mid-life upgrade, going by the example of the recent agreement on the Mirage 2000 upgrade for the IAF, could cost another $30 billion (assuming a total Rafale fleet of 189). Once you add the cost of munitions and maintenance, it could all mean a total program cost of $100 billion. This is an unacceptably high expenditurefor an interim solution to the IAF’s fighter shortage, on an aircraft that will be obsolete almost as soon as it is inducted in squadron service. A large part of the cost would go to French companies through license fees for the domestic manufacture and the cost of the components that they would directly supply.

A deal this size calls for much greater transparency and a guarantee that the country gets its money’s worth of tangible benefits.There would be some justification if the MMRCA deal helps India get the critical technologies it lacks. Anyone who has followed India’s troubled LCA program would know that advanced aero-engine technology is India’s most dire need. The reporters who may have seen the RfPs and may be familiar with the various bids have not disclosed details of what India asked for in terms of transfer of technology (ToT) and what the vendors have offered. Since India was conducting a parallel negotiation with France’s Snecma (the maker of the Rafale’s engine)for collaboration on India’s indigenous Kaveri engine, it is safe to assume that the MMRCA terms did not include the engine technologies India needs.As contract negotiations for the Rafale progressed, it emerged that France was balking at transferring other critical technologies (including radar technology) and meeting the 50% offsets obligation stipulated in the RfP.

One would have thought that MoD would have become wise to the French game by now and hardened its stand. Instead of dangling the threat of cancellation over Paris, someone or the other from India is constantly reassuring the French that the deal is indeed going through. In the wake of reports that Dassault was trying to wriggle out of the ToT and offsets requirements of the deal, all of which it had formally accepted in its tender, visiting Indian External Affairs Minister Salman Khurshid in fact sounded out his hosts on increasing the order for the Rafale from the initial 126 to 189. The minister effectively undercut India’s negotiating position in the ongoing contract negotiations with Dassault. Any other country would have kept hanging over the French the threat to walk away from the deal if the vendor’s terms were unfavorable.

The MMRCA procurement made sense when it was first proposed. The burgeoning costs and the change in circumstances caused by the delay of over a decade in issuing an RfP and processing proposals make it an unwise acquisition now. The Rafale is no doubt a great aircraft and it would be very nice to have it in IAF colours. But India’s defence budget is not limitless and there are a great many other items the Indian armed forces need urgently. India has other, more cost-effective, means of rectifying the IAF’s fighter shortage. The easiest way is to increase the rate of production of the Su-30MKI, which HAL is currently producing from raw materials. The LCA also will be ready for serial production before Dassault can deliver the first Rafale to India. For the price of one Rafale, the IAF can probably get three LCAs. The IAF’s priority should be developing the AMCA as soon as possible. It is time to formally end the MMRCA procurement process.

 

[fatman17]

sir this is a JTF thread. kindly move these topics to india defence section.

If my memory is correct... China has re-export permissions in place for some nations and Egypt is one of those.

nope..........

 

[criminally bad]

sir this is a JTF thread. kindly move these topics to india defence section.



nope..........

sorry sir but why china dont want fc-1 in plaaf ???

 

[PWFI]

sorry sir but why china dont want fc-1 in plaaf ???

Who told you they don't want genius?

 

[criminally bad]

Who told you they don't want genius?

read in 1 of PDF thread.

 

[criminally bad]

Yes great barman pad should induct more jf17 as they beat flankers and typhoons and f16.I hope pad spends billions on more thunders

why pakistan dont buy j-10 or f-16 ??? only want 250. jf-17 ???

Yes great barman pad should induct more jf17 as they beat flankers and typhoons and f16.I hope pad spends billions on more thunders

why pakistan dont buy j-10 or f-16 ??? only want 250. jf-17 ???

Yes great barman pad should induct more jf17 as they beat flankers and typhoons and f16.I hope pad spends billions on more thunders

why pakistan dont buy j-10 or f-16 ??? only want 250. jf-17 ???

 

[Sinnerman108]

why pakistan dont buy j-10 or f-16 ??? only want 250. jf-17 ???


why pakistan dont buy j-10 or f-16 ??? only want 250. jf-17 ???


why pakistan dont buy j-10 or f-16 ??? only want 250. jf-17 ???

To induct a new airframe requires more operations and investment on ground than in air.

When the home built Jf-17 is maturing and improving then why invest in a new airframe ?

Unless there is a considerable in aircraft performance to justify the cost, I doubt PAF will invest in any thing new.

 

[BATMAN]

sorry sir but why china dont want fc-1 in plaaf ???

Where do you read China don't want FC-1 in PLAAF?

 

[BATMAN]

in PDF's 1 thread.

Growup.... and come back.

 

[That Guy]

read in 1 of PDF thread.

Anyways, to answer your question, they haven't inducted it because they may have no need for it. They're only putting it in an "evaluation" stage because outright rejecting it would hurt the already poor export potential of the JF-17.

If the JF-17 can be successfully sold to Sri-Lanka (they're reported to have an interest in buying 6 fighters), than the JF-17's export potential will rise significantly.

The J-10 fulfills all of their requirements and is a lot more advanced, so why would they get it anyways? They just don't have any use for it.

 

[surya kiran]

Anyways, to answer your question, they haven't inducted it because they may have no need for it. They're only putting it in an "evaluation" stage because it would hurt the already poor export potential of the JF-17.

The J-10 fulfills all of their requirements and is a lot more advanced, so why would they get it anyways? They just don't have any use for it.

FC 1 is not the export version of the J-10. Its a version of the JF-17.

 

[That Guy]

FC 1 is not the export version of the J-10. Its a version of the JF-17.

I know, I replied to the wrong thread, I edited the comment to fix the said comment. Please see reason for edit for more details.