Export bids for JF-17 Thunder Multirole Lightweight Fighter Aircraft

[Marker]

If i have high resolution satellites that can take detailed pictures with impunity why will i even bother with sending the jets just to take photos?? So I disagree

To test their EW/ECM techs.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Again you are at fault of saying that it is not a export success or failure .It is determined by product offering and potential customer needs .e.g JF17 was designed to replace ageing F7/A5/Mirages not only for PAF but many nations . DId we replace our Mirages with JF1`7 ,Answer lies here we are offering Egypt the JF17 and buying second hand mirages from them .Irony Businesses are complex matter ,fighting is simpler

Export success as in Thunder or Gripen? I'm confused about what the argument is?
I'd add that imo JF -17 was never meant for replacing all our Mirages.
The numbers never made sense as PAF had over 350 A-5s, F-7s and Mirages 3/5s when JF-17 was first inducted ( will check the actual orbat tomorrow). And even then the max number we would hear was 250 JF-17s. So clearly it wasn't to replace all 3rd gen aircraft. In fact at that time, we had only 32 F-16s when the first flight took off in 2003. It might happen now as we add more capabilities in our jet. Also, Horus from Egypt is all rumors and never has been confirmed by the air force. And we might just be buying them as a spare source to keep the current fleet operational on the cheap while we build another 100 jets over the next decade. Doesnt say Mirages are more capable necessarily

 

[volatile]

Export success as in Thunder or Gripen? I'm confused about what the argument is?
I'd add that imo JF -17 was never meant for replacing all our Mirages.
The numbers never made sense as PAF had over 350 A-5s, F-7s and Mirages 3/5s when JF-17 was first inducted ( will check the actual orbat tomorrow). And even then the max number we would hear was 250 JF-17s. So clearly it wasn't to replace all 3rd gen aircraft. In fact at that time, we had only 32 F-16s when the first flight took off in 2003. It might happen now as we add more capabilities in our jet. Also, Horus from Egypt is all rumors and never has been confirmed by the air force. And we might just be buying them as a spare source to keep the current fleet operational on the cheap while we build another 100 jets over the next decade. Doesnt say Mirages are more capable necessarily

Mt friend when you live long enough to see and remember it makes a difference .In the era of dial ups and old www.******************** many things were written and share pre 2000`s late 1990`s

Joint Fighter-17 (JF-17) Thunder / Fighter China-1 (FC-1) Fierce Dragon

Overview
The JF-17 is designed to meet the tactical and strategic needs of the Pakistani Air Force with a minimal reliance on imports from other countries. In addition, the requirement was for the aircraft to have sufficient space for future upgrades and/or equipment specified by export buyers. The JF-17 is considered to be in the "mid-high-tech class" of fighter aircraft.

So it was intended for exports from day one

Programme
In 1986 China signed a US$550 million agreement with Grumman to modernise its J-7 (Chinese copy of the MiG-21 Fishbed) fighter aircraft under the "Super-7" upgrade project. Western companies from the US and Britain were competing to provide the engine and avionics. The project was cancelled in early 1990, in the wake of the cooling of political relations with the West, as well as in response to a 40% increase in the cost of the project. However, Chengdu managed to continue the programme with its own resources and the project was re-branded as FC-1 (Fighter China-1).

Following the 1993 US sanction against China and Pakistan on the transfer of ballistic missile components and technology, problems of acquiring Western technology has driven Pakistan to seek helps from its Chinese ally. Beijing and Islamabad concluded a joint development and production agreement in June 1999 to co-develop the FC-1 fighter aircraft. According to the agreement, China Aviation Import and Export Corporation (CATIC) and Pakistan each contribute 50% of the development costs, which was estimated as about US$150 million. Chengdu was chosen to be the primary contractor, with Russian Mikoyan Aero-Science Production Group (MASPG) providing assistance in some design work as well as its RD-93 turbofan engine to power the aircraft.

The first FC-1 rolled out from the assembly line on 31 May 2003, and its 15-minute maiden flight took place on 24 August 2003. So far four prototypes have been built, with the second for static tests and the rest in flying tests. The initial production of 16 aircraft is expected to start in mid-2006, and the PAF has a requirement for 150 aircraft under the designation of the JF-17 to replace its Chengdu F-7P fighters in current service. Pakistani aviation industry will also be involved in the production of some avionics for the aircraft.

The FC-1 is mainly targeting the international market as a potential replacement for the second-generation fighters such as the Northrop F-5 Tiger, Dassault Mirage III/5, Shenyang J-6, MiG-21/F-7 Fishbed, and Nanchang Q-5 aircraft. CATIC and CAC are trying to persuade the PLAAF to acquire additional FC-1s to reduce the unit price, but a firm contract has yet been reached. In addition, CATIC/CAC is also trying to promote the aircraft to other potential customers including Bangladesh, Egypt and Nigeria.

FYI this bold part answers your query on export potential and other design parameters .

枭龙 ：中国巴基斯坦联合研制FC-1 JF-17轻型战斗机

巴基斯坦向生产歼-7M战斗机的成都飞机公司(成飞)提出，共同在歼-7M的基础上研制新战斗机，当时的中方总设计师是著名飞机设计专家屠基达。巴方将此定名为“佩刀Ⅱ”方案，中方定为歼-7CP。从当时公开的图片看，基本思想是在歼-7的基础上采取与歼-8Ⅱ相同的两侧进气道、翼根前缘增加了前缘襟翼，换装发动机

web.archive.org

Pratt & Whitney offered the Super-7 project three engine options; PW1212, F404, and PW1216, with local manufacturing in either China or Pakistan. Rolls Royce offered its RB199-127/128 turbofan engine; this plan was scrapped in 1989.[30]

 

[GriffinsRule]

Mt friend when you live long enough to see and remember it makes a difference .In the era of dial ups and old www.******************** many things were written and share pre 2000`s late 1990`s

Joint Fighter-17 (JF-17) Thunder / Fighter China-1 (FC-1) Fierce Dragon

Overview
The JF-17 is designed to meet the tactical and strategic needs of the Pakistani Air Force with a minimal reliance on imports from other countries. In addition, the requirement was for the aircraft to have sufficient space for future upgrades and/or equipment specified by export buyers. The JF-17 is considered to be in the "mid-high-tech class" of fighter aircraft.

So it was intended for exports from day one

Programme
In 1986 China signed a US$550 million agreement with Grumman to modernise its J-7 (Chinese copy of the MiG-21 Fishbed) fighter aircraft under the "Super-7" upgrade project. Western companies from the US and Britain were competing to provide the engine and avionics. The project was cancelled in early 1990, in the wake of the cooling of political relations with the West, as well as in response to a 40% increase in the cost of the project. However, Chengdu managed to continue the programme with its own resources and the project was re-branded as FC-1 (Fighter China-1).

Following the 1993 US sanction against China and Pakistan on the transfer of ballistic missile components and technology, problems of acquiring Western technology has driven Pakistan to seek helps from its Chinese ally. Beijing and Islamabad concluded a joint development and production agreement in June 1999 to co-develop the FC-1 fighter aircraft. According to the agreement, China Aviation Import and Export Corporation (CATIC) and Pakistan each contribute 50% of the development costs, which was estimated as about US$150 million. Chengdu was chosen to be the primary contractor, with Russian Mikoyan Aero-Science Production Group (MASPG) providing assistance in some design work as well as its RD-93 turbofan engine to power the aircraft.

The first FC-1 rolled out from the assembly line on 31 May 2003, and its 15-minute maiden flight took place on 24 August 2003. So far four prototypes have been built, with the second for static tests and the rest in flying tests. The initial production of 16 aircraft is expected to start in mid-2006, and the PAF has a requirement for 150 aircraft under the designation of the JF-17 to replace its Chengdu F-7P fighters in current service. Pakistani aviation industry will also be involved in the production of some avionics for the aircraft.

The FC-1 is mainly targeting the international market as a potential replacement for the second-generation fighters such as the Northrop F-5 Tiger, Dassault Mirage III/5, Shenyang J-6, MiG-21/F-7 Fishbed, and Nanchang Q-5 aircraft. CATIC and CAC are trying to persuade the PLAAF to acquire additional FC-1s to reduce the unit price, but a firm contract has yet been reached. In addition, CATIC/CAC is also trying to promote the aircraft to other potential customers including Bangladesh, Egypt and Nigeria.

FYI this bold part answers your query on export potential and other design parameters .

枭龙 ：中国巴基斯坦联合研制FC-1 JF-17轻型战斗机

巴基斯坦向生产歼-7M战斗机的成都飞机公司(成飞)提出，共同在歼-7M的基础上研制新战斗机，当时的中方总设计师是著名飞机设计专家屠基达。巴方将此定名为“佩刀Ⅱ”方案，中方定为歼-7CP。从当时公开的图片看，基本思想是在歼-7的基础上采取与歼-8Ⅱ相同的两侧进气道、翼根前缘增加了前缘襟翼，换装发动机

web.archive.org

Pratt & Whitney offered the Super-7 project three engine options; PW1212, F404, and PW1216, with local manufacturing in either China or Pakistan. Rolls Royce offered its RB199-127/128 turbofan engine; this plan was scrapped in 1989.[30]

It's an opinion piece, much like what I'm stating here as mine. But we can end this discussion as it's pointless

 

[Vapour]

No, a fact. Israeli jets fly and take pictures over KSA, without detection and interception.

Bit of a fallacy here, firstly why would Israel risk emission of their jets' radar signals and what not being captured by another air force and the threat of having a jet shot down instead of simply using one of their military satellites to get imagery that's probably far better quality than any jet would?

Secondly, why is it the sole responsibility of the air force to detect incoming threats?

Do you have any source for your claim?

 

[Marker]

Bit of a fallacy here, firstly why would Israel risk emission of their jets' radar signals and what not being captured by another air force and the threat of having a jet shot down instead of simply using one of their military satellites to get imagery that's probably far better quality than any jet would?

Secondly, why is it the sole responsibility of the air force to detect incoming threats?

Do you have any source for your claim?

1. Operation Opera is historical event and a fact. Israeli F-16s flew inside KSA before reaching Iraq.
2. Recently they used their F-35s and flew over Saudi Arabia without any detection and interception.

RSADF and KSAF are responsible for aerial defense of KSA. They possess systems supplied by US, UK, France, Sweden and Switzerland.

The intruding aircraft in both cases were neither detected nor intercepted.

 

[Vapour]

1. Operation Opera is historical event and a fact. Israeli F-16s flew inside KSA before reaching Iraq.
2. Recently they used their F-35s and flew over Saudi Arabia without any detection and interception.

RSADF and KSAF are responsible for aerial defense of KSA. They possess systems supplied by US, UK, France, Sweden and Switzerland.

The intruding aircraft in both cases were neither detected nor intercepted.

1. Operation Opera is historical event and a fact. Israeli F-16s flew inside KSA before reaching Iraq.
2. Recently they used their F-35s and flew over Saudi Arabia without any detection and interception.

RSADF and KSAF are responsible for aerial defense of KSA. They possess systems supplied by US, UK, France, Sweden and Switzerland.

The intruding aircraft in both cases were neither detected nor intercepted.

1. This occurred almost 40 years ago, so quite difficult to extrapolate what would occur if the same were to happen today, with those IAF jets up against present RSAF F-15s and Typhoons and current radars.

Essentially, the point I'm trying to make by engaging in this, is that we should not be making sweeping statements. There's always a multitude of factors to consider - for example Israel has always had an advantage of better aircraft, more so now than ever with their heavily tweaked F-35Is, can these be detected by current radars? Is that due to mediocre RSAF capability? Is RSAF capability even mediocre or has it improved over time to become pretty good?

I doubt we have answers to those questions, unless one has followed their airforce in intricate detail for a number of years.

 

[Marker]

1. This occurred almost 40 years ago, so quite difficult to extrapolate what would occur if the same were to happen today, with those IAF jets up against present RSAF F-15s and Typhoons and current radars.

Essentially, the point I'm trying to make by engaging in this, is that we should not be making sweeping statements. There's always a multitude of factors to consider - for example Israel has always had an advantage of better aircraft, more so now than ever with their heavily tweaked F-35Is, can these be detected by current radars? Is that due to mediocre RSAF capability? Is RSAF capability even mediocre or has it improved over time to become pretty good?

I doubt we have answers to those questions, unless one has followed their airforce in intricate detail for a number of years.

My statement is never sweeping, it us based on facts,

You will get clear answer to your query from someone who had been on deputation to KSAF.

 

[The Eagle]

Export bids for JF-17 Thunder Multirole Lightweight Fighter Aircraft

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Export bids for JF-17 Thunder Multirole Lightweight Fighter Aircraft

hope people remember the topic and stay on it instead f going off tangent

 

[blinder]

they have committed to gripen, once pass the initial cost gripen is fairly good priced item..and may even have a lower operating cost then thunder given its highly reliable engine

i doubt they will buy anything else, will probably acquire used gripens if they need to

They have too many Gripens as it is (and/or too few pilots). The Gripen/Hawk combo leaves little room for the JF-17 I think. It was a political deal, the SAAF would rather have had M2000 to ease transition from the Mirage 3.

 

[MastanKhan]

they have committed to gripen, once pass the initial cost gripen is fairly good priced item..and may even have a lower operating cost then thunder given its highly reliable engine

i doubt they will buy anything else, will probably acquire used gripens if they need to

Hi,

SA found out that the Gripen was not that inexpensive to operate. It was not a good choice that SA made---.

 

[Signalian]

Export bids for JF-17 Thunder Multirole Lightweight Fighter Aircraft

You have gone lethal lately, even i have to think 10 times before i post in a thread

China/Pak can pitch JF-17 to Azerbaijan again, since a hostile situation has erupted in Caucasus.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

You have gone lethal lately, even i have to think 10 times before i post in a thread

China/Pak can pitch JF-17 to Azerbaijan again, since a hostile situation has erupted in Caucasus.

people need to be hit on the head to remind them what they came to talk about about.
its an issue with our part of the world

 

[Vapour]

You have gone lethal lately, even i have to think 10 times before i post in a thread

China/Pak can pitch JF-17 to Azerbaijan again, since a hostile situation has erupted in Caucasus.

Wouldn't that take too long given the war is happening right now, as they'd have to go through all the contractual, financials etc., as well as the actual training, unless you're referring to temporarily leasing some of Pakistan's or even PAF pitching in?