Guynextdoor2
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Tch Tch, one little India, taking interest in one little deal and it sets you off. Wonder why you would be so worked up on us taking a special interest
Export bids for JF-17 Thunder Multirole Lightweight Fighter Aircraft
- Thread starter Kompromat
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Tch Tch, one little India, taking interest in one little deal and it sets you off. Wonder why you would be so worked up on us taking a special interest
araz
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WHO EVER HAS GIVEN A NEGATIVE RATING TO THE ABOVE POST NEEDS TO REVIEW IT. THERE IS NO HARM IN AN ALTERNATIVE VIEW POINT
The JFT lacks a trainer/ twin seater which has been acknowledged as a DEFICIENCY by our ACM. It is a fact that it remains a deficiency and needs rectification prior to a successful sale.
Araz
Hurter
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India.....should.....sabotage.....the .....deal......
That is expected in future.. Nothing New
Irfan Baloch
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Let that member have some fun with his rating power
My objection is based on common sense its a shame that lack of 2 seater trainer has been brought up repeatedly on various marketing outings of JF17 but it didnt register with designers/ decision makers
i hail the confidence shown by NAF and wish them safe and sussessful intigration of this ffighter
OTTOMAN
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Pakistan knows the design parameters, as they are the designers.
While JF-17 project is buying subsystems and machine tools, from various Chinese manufacturers.
CATIC has also about 50% funding, because when project was conceived by PAC, Pakistan's democratic regime was lacking funds.
Paksanity
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Exports are sure to come. Aircraft has no equivalent in its category. Don't let anyone's comments here cloud your mind. But it always takes time. They will wait till we can fine tune aircraft to its full potential.
MastanKhan
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Hi,
What seems funny to me is that why the poster fighting for PLAAF---how good their pilots are----if the Chinese members would be claiming it as such---there wouldn't be any disagreement---
What seems funny to me is that why the poster fighting for PLAAF---how good their pilots are----if the Chinese members would be claiming it as such---there wouldn't be any disagreement---
MehrotraPrince
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Paksanity
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JF-17 Presses On After News of Egypt's Plans
JF-17 Presses On After News of Egypt's Plans
By Usman Ansari10:47 a.m. EST January 25, 2015
30TWEETLINKEDINCOMMENTEMAILMORE
ISLAMABAD — News that Egypt may acquire the UAE's Mirage fighters is likely to scupper Pakistan's hopes of selling the JF-17, especially since Cairo is also reportedly negotiating for 20 Rafale fighters, and shown interest in the MiG-35. However, brisk development of the JF-17 continues alongside sales efforts.
Kaiser Tufail, former Pakistani air commodore, said the UAE's offer of an undisclosed number of Dassault-built Mirage 2000-9s to Egypt means the JF-17 may be out of contention in Cairo.
"If [Egypt] purchases Mirage 2000-9s as well as some more of the older refurbished 2000-5s, it would certainly not need the JF-17, which is less capable than the French fighter," he said.
DEFENSENEWS
UAE Offers Mirage Fighters to Iraq
With large numbers of obsolete Mirage 5, MiG-21 and Chengdu J-7 fighters, Egypt was a prime JF-17 target. The JF-17 Thunder is built by China's Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex.
However, analyst Usman Shabbir of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank believes the JF-17 is a victim of geopolitical circumstances, though Egypt may struggle with the French fighters.
"Considering the current Egyptian economical situation, any purchase of Rafale or Mirages would have to be bankrolled by its Arab allies [Saudi Arabia and the UAE]. Rafale is too expensive to buy and operate even for countries with deeper pockets. Mirages might be gifted or sold at a nominal price, but it is also a very expensive aircraft to operate, and weapons and support are going to be very expensive," he said.
He considers the JF-17 better suited to Egypt's economic, industrial and operational requirements.
"The JF-17 is cheaper to buy and operate and comes with a weapons package that Egypt can't get elsewhere. Also, they have prior experience in dealing with Chinese industry and have developed very a good working relationship with them."
Since 2010, Egypt has been offered local production of the JF-17, having previously built Sino-Pakistani K-8E Karakorum jet trainers for the Egyptian Air Force.
Generally, Tufail believes the JF-17 will struggle against surplus Western aircraft.
"The JF-17 will continue to face a challenge from old NATO F-16s, as well as Mirage-2000s, which are available in the market, albeit subject to end-user clearance from US and France," he said. "I think that the JF-17 has a market only in those African and Asian countries where the nature of the threat does not warrant very expensive and over-endowed warplanes."
Nevertheless, until Egypt makes a decision, the JF-17 team remains hopeful.
Citing client confidentiality, Air Commodore Khalid Mahmood, director of sales and marketing for the JF-17, would not comment on negotiations with the Egyptians, only that negotiations were ongoing with 11 countries.
He stressed that the program is on track.
"The JF-17 program has not stopped. It's moving fast although people may not know it; especially on the Chinese side because new weapons came up like the J-31, the Y-20, and some 3-D radars etc. So, for some people it may be a little out of sight, but the program is progressing at a very fast pace."
"We have not stopped our development while the production is continuing as planned. We're happy with the response of the international community, of friendly nations regarding the induction capability of this aircraft," he said. "We are getting many queries thus far."
He does not believe the JF-17 will be a victim of a divergence in the fighter market with affluent nations opting for high end fighters while others purchase lead-in fighter trainer (LIFT) aircraft.
"Everyone needs a high tech aircraft. Those who can afford it buy them. Others think a LIFT will fill the gap, but it doesn't," he said. "We can offer customers a far more capable aircraft at a similar price. We can offer them support and maintenance. We don't just offer them aircraft. We don't walk away from our responsibilities."
Nor does he believe Russian competition will directly hamper sales.
"In this class of fighter, the Russians don't have any airplanes. The nations which consider the JF-17, the Russians cannot offer an alternative aircraft because the aircraft are big, twin-engined, mostly twin-tailed, and of course they need bigger infrastructure, the storage, everything has to be specialized for those airplanes.
"Nations make their own decisions, but what is the most popular requirement?" he added. "Everybody wants to retain the same infrastructure, without them changing everything; they want to buy an aircraft with similar capabilities."
Presently development is focused on the third variant.
"We are in the process of finalizing the conceptual design of the Block III," he said. "Production is still three years away. Block III will be a big jump. The capabilities will be enhanced with previous ones retained."
Speculation focuses on possible dedicated stations for targeting pods, but Mahmood would say only that this was possible, and highlighted the present practice of using dual ejector racks "to offset this smaller size of the airplane."
Hitherto, those seen on the JF-17 have carried bombs, but there is speculation regarding dual racks designed for SD-10 beyond-visual-range air-to-air missiles being tested.
Considerable improvements have also been made to armament options in the past two years, with emphasis on survivability and multirole capabilities.
"We're presently in the age of standoff weaponry. The Chinese have cleared a number of weapons for export, including long range anti-radiation missiles and [LG6] standoff munition dispensers. The anti-ship missile armament is also quite potent and comprises of the CM-400AKG and C-802AK. Each JF-17 is capable of carrying anti-ship missiles. The software is there. There are no fleets within fleets."
Perhaps hinting at Securing an impending deal, he highlighted 90mm rocket launchers have been fitted at the behest of a potential customer and that such requests are prioritized.
"As a matter of policy we will add anything to the aircraft that will increase its potential, and even consider a Western engine if the customer so desires. We have spoken to suppliers about this, to Rolls-Royce. So if a customer decides we can do it, we can integrate a new engine. It will take a bit of time, but it can be done."
This is believed to be a reference to an EJ200-powered JF-17 targeted at Saudi Arabia, which in early 2014 discussed possible co-production and financing.
JF-17 Presses On After News of Egypt's Plans
By Usman Ansari10:47 a.m. EST January 25, 2015
30TWEETLINKEDINCOMMENTEMAILMORE
ISLAMABAD — News that Egypt may acquire the UAE's Mirage fighters is likely to scupper Pakistan's hopes of selling the JF-17, especially since Cairo is also reportedly negotiating for 20 Rafale fighters, and shown interest in the MiG-35. However, brisk development of the JF-17 continues alongside sales efforts.
Kaiser Tufail, former Pakistani air commodore, said the UAE's offer of an undisclosed number of Dassault-built Mirage 2000-9s to Egypt means the JF-17 may be out of contention in Cairo.
"If [Egypt] purchases Mirage 2000-9s as well as some more of the older refurbished 2000-5s, it would certainly not need the JF-17, which is less capable than the French fighter," he said.
DEFENSENEWS
UAE Offers Mirage Fighters to Iraq
With large numbers of obsolete Mirage 5, MiG-21 and Chengdu J-7 fighters, Egypt was a prime JF-17 target. The JF-17 Thunder is built by China's Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex.
However, analyst Usman Shabbir of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank believes the JF-17 is a victim of geopolitical circumstances, though Egypt may struggle with the French fighters.
"Considering the current Egyptian economical situation, any purchase of Rafale or Mirages would have to be bankrolled by its Arab allies [Saudi Arabia and the UAE]. Rafale is too expensive to buy and operate even for countries with deeper pockets. Mirages might be gifted or sold at a nominal price, but it is also a very expensive aircraft to operate, and weapons and support are going to be very expensive," he said.
He considers the JF-17 better suited to Egypt's economic, industrial and operational requirements.
"The JF-17 is cheaper to buy and operate and comes with a weapons package that Egypt can't get elsewhere. Also, they have prior experience in dealing with Chinese industry and have developed very a good working relationship with them."
Since 2010, Egypt has been offered local production of the JF-17, having previously built Sino-Pakistani K-8E Karakorum jet trainers for the Egyptian Air Force.
Generally, Tufail believes the JF-17 will struggle against surplus Western aircraft.
"The JF-17 will continue to face a challenge from old NATO F-16s, as well as Mirage-2000s, which are available in the market, albeit subject to end-user clearance from US and France," he said. "I think that the JF-17 has a market only in those African and Asian countries where the nature of the threat does not warrant very expensive and over-endowed warplanes."
Nevertheless, until Egypt makes a decision, the JF-17 team remains hopeful.
Citing client confidentiality, Air Commodore Khalid Mahmood, director of sales and marketing for the JF-17, would not comment on negotiations with the Egyptians, only that negotiations were ongoing with 11 countries.
He stressed that the program is on track.
"The JF-17 program has not stopped. It's moving fast although people may not know it; especially on the Chinese side because new weapons came up like the J-31, the Y-20, and some 3-D radars etc. So, for some people it may be a little out of sight, but the program is progressing at a very fast pace."
"We have not stopped our development while the production is continuing as planned. We're happy with the response of the international community, of friendly nations regarding the induction capability of this aircraft," he said. "We are getting many queries thus far."
He does not believe the JF-17 will be a victim of a divergence in the fighter market with affluent nations opting for high end fighters while others purchase lead-in fighter trainer (LIFT) aircraft.
"Everyone needs a high tech aircraft. Those who can afford it buy them. Others think a LIFT will fill the gap, but it doesn't," he said. "We can offer customers a far more capable aircraft at a similar price. We can offer them support and maintenance. We don't just offer them aircraft. We don't walk away from our responsibilities."
Nor does he believe Russian competition will directly hamper sales.
"In this class of fighter, the Russians don't have any airplanes. The nations which consider the JF-17, the Russians cannot offer an alternative aircraft because the aircraft are big, twin-engined, mostly twin-tailed, and of course they need bigger infrastructure, the storage, everything has to be specialized for those airplanes.
"Nations make their own decisions, but what is the most popular requirement?" he added. "Everybody wants to retain the same infrastructure, without them changing everything; they want to buy an aircraft with similar capabilities."
Presently development is focused on the third variant.
"We are in the process of finalizing the conceptual design of the Block III," he said. "Production is still three years away. Block III will be a big jump. The capabilities will be enhanced with previous ones retained."
Speculation focuses on possible dedicated stations for targeting pods, but Mahmood would say only that this was possible, and highlighted the present practice of using dual ejector racks "to offset this smaller size of the airplane."
Hitherto, those seen on the JF-17 have carried bombs, but there is speculation regarding dual racks designed for SD-10 beyond-visual-range air-to-air missiles being tested.
Considerable improvements have also been made to armament options in the past two years, with emphasis on survivability and multirole capabilities.
"We're presently in the age of standoff weaponry. The Chinese have cleared a number of weapons for export, including long range anti-radiation missiles and [LG6] standoff munition dispensers. The anti-ship missile armament is also quite potent and comprises of the CM-400AKG and C-802AK. Each JF-17 is capable of carrying anti-ship missiles. The software is there. There are no fleets within fleets."
Perhaps hinting at Securing an impending deal, he highlighted 90mm rocket launchers have been fitted at the behest of a potential customer and that such requests are prioritized.
"As a matter of policy we will add anything to the aircraft that will increase its potential, and even consider a Western engine if the customer so desires. We have spoken to suppliers about this, to Rolls-Royce. So if a customer decides we can do it, we can integrate a new engine. It will take a bit of time, but it can be done."
This is believed to be a reference to an EJ200-powered JF-17 targeted at Saudi Arabia, which in early 2014 discussed possible co-production and financing.
Last edited:
MastanKhan
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Hi,
Lessons learnt from communicating with perspective buyers is---2 seater is a must---. Research what version of the package most of the buyer be interested in----create a position of THE DEVILS ADVOCATE in the organization.
Understand your short comings and don't act as if you were Generl Dynamics---.
In the aircraft manufacturing area----have smartly turned out technicians---short hair on the scalp---clean shaven----no Dhoti or Shalwar Kameez ---. Technicians who appear to mean only business.
No familes---ie spouses in the manufacturing areas---. Tell the politicians to stay away from marketing the aircraft.
Lessons learnt from communicating with perspective buyers is---2 seater is a must---. Research what version of the package most of the buyer be interested in----create a position of THE DEVILS ADVOCATE in the organization.
Understand your short comings and don't act as if you were Generl Dynamics---.
In the aircraft manufacturing area----have smartly turned out technicians---short hair on the scalp---clean shaven----no Dhoti or Shalwar Kameez ---. Technicians who appear to mean only business.
No familes---ie spouses in the manufacturing areas---. Tell the politicians to stay away from marketing the aircraft.
Last edited:
DrWatson775
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Any aircraft in Egypt's hands will mean Israel will get to know it's weak areas soon one way or the other. Intelligence sharing bw Israel and India is well known. Better not in Egyptian hands then. Don't want a repeat of 1967 & 73 and a bad name for the 17s.
TVVELVEMO$
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Looking at this from aviation industry insiders’ perspective:-
Egyptians are worried about JSF/Lightening II induction into IDF. The only viable non-American option seems to be a French one. They have made inquiries with the Russians and may not have been reassured about the PAKFA\FGFA. They are being funded generously by Saudis.
Perhaps, Pakistan can leverage her Chinese & Saudi connections to provide the Egyptians with a comprehensive solution to their problem with induction of JF17 with a baked-in follow-on order of Chinese version of JSF (but twin-engined). All this requires orchestration of a very complex set of negotiations, a test of Pakistan’s closeness to the changing Saudi Monarchy and whether Pakistan can get in on the action in Chinese stealth programs. Such actions will also inform PAF about possible Indian induction of JSF once French/Russian deals wither on the vine.
Pakistan ought to take another look at African nations like Nigeria and Tanzania.
There is a big brouhaha in Abuja about a mutiny. The army unit refused to use weapons that did not work against Boko. Then Nigeria sourced weapons from Pakistan in a hurry. It appears they are to the satisfaction of the soldiers. Pakistan should capitalize on this good publicity and send a marketing team. Pakistan should also be prepared to spend some ‘inducement money’-albeit very discretely and through untraceable banks. It is just the cost of doing business in Nigeria!!!
This comes on the heels of PAF support for Sri Lanka forces in their successful insurgency ops. Pakistan can cement this reputation of the ‘go to guys’ for smallish nations in a pinch against insurgencies where West will not help.
A more promising prospect is Iraq. Pakistan should fulfill the order for 30 trainers promptly and send in her best to set up the facilities/training inside Iraq; preferably Arabic speakers. Iraq desperately needs a platform that can complement the F-16s and bear the brunt of ground targeting ops against Daish/ISIL. A scenario not unlike what Pakistan is beset with at the moment in "ZeA" ops in FATA. All this requires energy and imagination-and an insiders view of aviation. Can Pakistan stop looking in from the outside and get in on the action?
Egyptians are worried about JSF/Lightening II induction into IDF. The only viable non-American option seems to be a French one. They have made inquiries with the Russians and may not have been reassured about the PAKFA\FGFA. They are being funded generously by Saudis.
Perhaps, Pakistan can leverage her Chinese & Saudi connections to provide the Egyptians with a comprehensive solution to their problem with induction of JF17 with a baked-in follow-on order of Chinese version of JSF (but twin-engined). All this requires orchestration of a very complex set of negotiations, a test of Pakistan’s closeness to the changing Saudi Monarchy and whether Pakistan can get in on the action in Chinese stealth programs. Such actions will also inform PAF about possible Indian induction of JSF once French/Russian deals wither on the vine.
Pakistan ought to take another look at African nations like Nigeria and Tanzania.
There is a big brouhaha in Abuja about a mutiny. The army unit refused to use weapons that did not work against Boko. Then Nigeria sourced weapons from Pakistan in a hurry. It appears they are to the satisfaction of the soldiers. Pakistan should capitalize on this good publicity and send a marketing team. Pakistan should also be prepared to spend some ‘inducement money’-albeit very discretely and through untraceable banks. It is just the cost of doing business in Nigeria!!!
This comes on the heels of PAF support for Sri Lanka forces in their successful insurgency ops. Pakistan can cement this reputation of the ‘go to guys’ for smallish nations in a pinch against insurgencies where West will not help.
A more promising prospect is Iraq. Pakistan should fulfill the order for 30 trainers promptly and send in her best to set up the facilities/training inside Iraq; preferably Arabic speakers. Iraq desperately needs a platform that can complement the F-16s and bear the brunt of ground targeting ops against Daish/ISIL. A scenario not unlike what Pakistan is beset with at the moment in "ZeA" ops in FATA. All this requires energy and imagination-and an insiders view of aviation. Can Pakistan stop looking in from the outside and get in on the action?
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