Ex-IAF Chief Tyagi was bribed to swing chopper deal, says Italy probe

[arp2041]

Look what's the state of the Former Chief.

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He will be grilled. Good example should be set.

This also raises doubts that may be IAF intentionally wanted LCA and other projects by constantly changing requirements to make them delayed to get Foreign Maal.

@sancho @Abingdonboy @arp2041 What's your take ? I know its a far fetched theory and may be baseless conspiracy theory. But still, it worth a look.

What you are seeing as a Good example to be set, i am seeing as a threat to our Security, even if the Former Chief was guilty of any wrongdoing, this matter should have never come under public knowledge & all things should have been done without the media fanfare. This kind of incidents directly hit the morale of the force of whom he was once head of. + Imagine the pressure now the current Air Chief will be in after seeing all this, now every procurement deal of IAF will be put through an extra cautious process which means more & more delays as no one wants to be accused of any sort of corruption or wrongdoing, the biggest of them all will be the Rafale deal which is so important for the entire security apparatus of India.

+ LCA can still be inducted if IAF wants, in fact, if the current LCA prototypes were flying in any smaller nation they wouldn't have been a prototype but a production version itself. It's just that IAF has now got many choices & they don't want to induct an under-performing ac (when compared to the likes of Rafale, super sukhois, FGFA, AMCA) in there fleet, thus they want more & more improvement to already one of the best Light weight ac flying around the world at present. This is where the main difference b/w LCA & JF-17 comes, PAF first inducted JF-17 to increase it's squadron strength & than made improvements in it but IAF first want the improvements than only will it induct the ac. I also want the LCA to be inducted but if IAF sees that we can get much better ac than what we are getting at present than we should TRUST them.

 

[Thorough Pro]

Beta ..

Lame attempt...grow up address the issue, your personal attacks don'e mean anything.

IA chief has court martial-ed even Lt. Generals also (sukhna Land Scam)

Amazing, all around the world it's normally millitary courts which court martial!

and that too no hard evidence was there against them of accepting money or gaining any other favours etc....

Shows poor justice system/process, punishing without hard evidence.

What was proved was their intent to do corruption. !!

hmmmmm

So, please just shut the F up if you don't know what you are talking about !!

My shutting the india up wont solve any mess, blind patritism is number one cause of millitary scams and frauds everywhere.

 

[rashtriya.rifles]

Lame attempt...grow up address the issue, your personal attacks don'e mean anything.



Amazing, all around the world it's normally millitary courts which court martial!



Shows poor justice system/process, punishing without hard evidence.



hmmmmm



My shutting the india up wont solve any mess, blind patritism is number one cause of millitary scams and frauds everywhere.

comprehension fail.

Take a deep breath and read what I mentioned.

 

[Thorough Pro]

comprehension fail.

Take a deep breath and read what I mentioned.

Try this trick next time you try your intellect at some serious issue.......

 

[KRAIT]

@arp2041 I agree and disagree with your post. Should it be out, no. But I think its better we all know. It explained the corruption in Govt. even more.

US presidents have apologized for many cases and it didn't brought down morale, but showed that no one will be exempted from Law and get a free ticket.


If you have Used INSAS and some other gun, and INSAS was inferior but India went for it, the soldier will feel that for money, they gave us bad weapon.

A fighter pilot knows which candidate was way much better than others in MMRCA.

See my point is, We need Security related acquisitions should be based on Requirements and Capabilities, not on Kick Backs and Corruption. It will instill hope in the armed forces that they won't get inferior equipment.

Soldier, pilots, sailors etc. all know which is better as they know more about these equipment than people like you and me.

Look at case of Javelin, Indian soldiers loved it and now we want to buy it. But if Spike or some other is bought, the soldiers already knows they are cheated whereas they could have got same weapon in same price if there was no corruption.

Think if they get their friends killed in Combat, and cause may be Guns jammed, lack of clothing and protection like in Kargil, this will bring down the Morale of the Soldiers even more.

Also, w are spending $ 40 billion on Defense. 3546 Crores is Kick Back. You can provide New Guns to Police force, or CRPF, provide them better surveillance equipment, better bullet proof vests etc.

I think there should be tansperencey but leak in Media can be avoided. But Indian Govt. don't do anything if it is exposed, leave aside they do it in closed doors.

Black Money case was out in open. What happened ? Nothing. At least you know the corruption. Now you won't vote for Congress.

If it wasn't revealed, people may have voted for Congress again. This Incident is good to send a message that with National Security, no type of compromises will be made.

Strict Punishment and Resignation of A.K Antony should be followed.

I can accept 2G scam, but can't accept Soldiers and Civilian life compromised due to Corruption. Its Treachery of Worst Kind.

 

[rashtriya.rifles]

Lame attempt...grow up address the issue, your personal attacks don'e mean anything.



Amazing, all around the world it's normally millitary courts which court martial!



Shows poor justice system/process, punishing without hard evidence.



hmmmmm



My shutting the india up wont solve any mess, blind patritism is number one cause of millitary scams and frauds everywhere.

Try this trick next time you try your intellect at some serious issue.......

As i said comprehension fail..

Now that you have expressed your ineptness in comprehending a simple fact which i said.. so i will give it to you piecemeal..

1. The 2 Lt.Generals who were court-martialled, were not done without ANY evidence. The evidence was that they leased out the land to a primary school which was a direct contravention of military land use policy.

2. Hard evidence regarding the army generals making money out of it was absent but they were still removed cause they violated land usage policy. ( in this case the intent was there )

3. SO, it is not poor justice system but shows the discipline and the standards of conduct expected in forces.. ( in glaring contrast , your naval chief was enjoying the karachi show in '71 )

4. Have you ever heard of any army guy in your country "ASKING' for a corner plot ? In your case it passes off as a trivial matter but here it created a sh!t storm when the army chief just 'requested' for it.

 

[SamantK]

What you are seeing as a Good example to be set, i am seeing as a threat to our Security, even if the Former Chief was guilty of any wrongdoing, this matter should have never come under public knowledge & all things should have been done without the media fanfare. This kind of incidents directly hit the morale of the force of whom he was once head of. + Imagine the pressure now the current Air Chief will be in after seeing all this, now every procurement deal of IAF will be put through an extra cautious process which means more & more delays as no one wants to be accused of any sort of corruption or wrongdoing, the biggest of them all will be the Rafale deal which is so important for the entire security apparatus of India.

+ LCA can still be inducted if IAF wants, in fact, if the current LCA prototypes were flying in any smaller nation they wouldn't have been a prototype but a production version itself. It's just that IAF has now got many choices & they don't want to induct an under-performing ac (when compared to the likes of Rafale, super sukhois, FGFA, AMCA) in there fleet, thus they want more & more improvement to already one of the best Light weight ac flying around the world at present. This is where the main difference b/w LCA & JF-17 comes, PAF first inducted JF-17 to increase it's squadron strength & than made improvements in it but IAF first want the improvements than only will it induct the ac. I also want the LCA to be inducted but if IAF sees that we can get much better ac than what we are getting at present than we should TRUST them.

I feel that these things bring about a cognizance in the people that no one is immune and rightly so. It IMO inculcates a culture to report the wrong doing of some. Of course nothing is proved yet against Ex-Chief but fingers pointed is of course undesirable, we cannot have your cake and eat it too..

 

[arp2041]

I feel that these things bring about a cognizance in the people that no one is immune and rightly so. It IMO inculcates a culture to report the wrong doing of some. Of course nothing is proved yet against Ex-Chief but fingers pointed is of course undesirable, we cannot have your cake and eat it too..

The Problem is that in today's 24*7*365 21st media century times, anyone is found guilty even before an FIR is launched against him/her. People don't follow court proceedings but they only sees what media shows, & media has already started assuming that he is indeed wrong. Here we are not talking about any Tom, Dick or Harry but the former COAS of the world's fourth largest AF. This has a direct impact on the morale of the force. What i m worrying about is that this doesn't results in more delays in our already delayed defence modernization process.

 

[janon]

+ LCA can still be inducted if IAF wants, in fact, if the current LCA prototypes were flying in any smaller nation they wouldn't have been a prototype but a production version itself. It's just that IAF has now got many choices & they don't want to induct an under-performing ac (when compared to the likes of Rafale, super sukhois, FGFA, AMCA) in there fleet, thus they want more & more improvement to already one of the best Light weight ac flying around the world at present. This is where the main difference b/w LCA & JF-17 comes, PAF first inducted JF-17 to increase it's squadron strength & than made improvements in it but IAF first want the improvements than only will it induct the ac. I also want the LCA to be inducted but if IAF sees that we can get much better ac than what we are getting at present than we should TRUST them.

None of those mentioned aircrafts are in the IAF fleet yet. IAF is still flying 3rd gen airframes that are older than the pilots who fly them. There is no reason why they could not have accepted the MK1 in the present specs, or even slightly lower specs, and then serial produced a hundred plus of them. They would have been better than half the present fleet in every respect, and the IAF's combat effectiveness in this decade would have been a lot more too. If the force was teeming with all those fancy aircrafts you mentioned, then they would have a justification for not inducting the LCA mk1 in numbers. As things stand, they are crying about falling numbers, and flying ancient aircrafts while they have a home grown multirole fourth gen fighter ready to go.

When PAF inducted the JF-17 in operational service, they didn't even have A2G capability.

The Problem is that in today's 24*7*365 21st media century times, anyone is found guilty even before an FIR is launched against him/her. People don't follow court proceedings but they only sees what media shows, & media has already started assuming that he is indeed wrong. Here we are not talking about any Tom, Dick or Harry but the former COAS of the world's fourth largest AF. This has a direct impact on the morale of the force. What i m worrying about is that this doesn't results in more delays in our already delayed defence modernization process.

Well the good news is that nobody will go to prison just because the media tries and metaphorically crucifies them. It is unfortunate that there is a media trial and a lot of soundbytes against anyone the moment there is an allegation, but that is a general problem that everybody in India faces today, not just the servicemen. At least this just goes to show that even our armed forces chiefs are at par with everyone else. Anyway he won't be punished by a court of law because of the media frenzy. What we as citizens ought to do is to disregard these media trials, and regard everyone to be innocent until proven guilty after the due process of law. And hope that our media evolves beyond these screeching showtrials that pass for activism, and these shallow soundbytes on every show that passes as "debate".

 

[Frank Martin]

 

[SamantK]

The Problem is that in today's 24*7*365 21st media century times, anyone is found guilty even before an FIR is launched against him/her. People don't follow court proceedings but they only sees what media shows, & media has already started assuming that he is indeed wrong. Here we are not talking about any Tom, Dick or Harry but the former COAS of the world's fourth largest AF. This has a direct impact on the morale of the force. What i m worrying about is that this doesn't results in more delays in our already delayed defence modernization process.

Killing the messenger does not solve the issue, this messenger though with its chivalrous and accusing attitude has helped bring fore many issues which are of import. If the forces and the gov feel that media should not engage in such a way, why not arm the Press Council with some powers to implement journalism ethics which are sorely missing?

 

[sancho]

Look what's the state of the Former Chief.

Live TV | Watch Times Now, Zoom TV, India TV, ET Now, Star Ananda, Star Majha, Star News, Headlines Today, Aajtak, Sahara Samay, Manorama News Online - Indiatimes Live

He will be grilled. Good example should be set.

This also raises doubts that may be IAF intentionally wanted LCA and other projects by constantly changing requirements to make them delayed to get Foreign Maal.

@sancho @Abingdonboy @arp2041 What's your take ? I know its a far fetched theory and may be baseless conspiracy theory. But still, it worth a look.

A man is innocent until he is proven guilty, so don't join the media in a man hunt based on speculations. Not even CBI got any real infos from Italian investigators yet, so let them investigate and then do what they have to do. Then we can get into conclusions, but not at this point.

The LCA point related to this is really too far fetched buddy, besides that's it's a myth that IAF has constantly changed the requirements. That is just a lame excuse for the industry to distract from their failures and delays.

 

[zaxcolix]

A man is innocent until he is proven guilty, so don't join the media in a man hunt based on speculations. Not even CBI got any real infos from Italian investigators yet, so let them investigate and then do what they have to do. Then we can get into conclusions, but not at this point.

The LCA point related to this is really too far fetched buddy, besides that's it's a myth that IAF has constantly changed the requirements. That is just a lame excuse for the industry to distract from their failures and delays.

There is no paper trail to Air Chief Tyagi........they were smart enough to make all transactions in Cash. Nothing can be proven..that is the best part of such scams.

Character of People like Chief Justice, Army chiefs and PM's should be above suspicion ..... At such high level not much can be proven........convictions are a rarity. India just lost 2000 crores .....

 

[janon]

@arp2041Black Money case was out in open. What happened ? Nothing. At least you know the corruption. Now you won't vote for Congress.

If it wasn't revealed, people may have voted for Congress again. This Incident is good to send a message that with National Security, no type of compromises will be made.

Strict Punishment and Resignation of A.K Antony should be followed.

Punish AK Antony and the congress, even if the misdeeds were done during NDA rule, with George Fernandez as defence minister?

VVIP chopper deal: Jaswant Singh admits changes made in tender during NDA rule | NDTV.com

At a time when his party is targeting the government on the VVIP chopper deal, senior BJP leader Jaswant Singh today came to the rescue of beleaguered former Air Force Chief S P Tyagi while admitting that the required parametres in the tender were changed during the NDA rule.

Mr Singh, who was the Defence Minister in the Vajpayee government, said the guilty in the issue is an Italian company and people "have forgotten them".

He favoured expeditious and thorough probe into the allegations of payment of kickbacks in the Rs. 3600 crore deal.

"We should not make wild allegations against a former Air Chief. It is not in the interest of both the Air Force and the country. The probe is on. As Air Chief Marshal (retired) Tyagi himself is saying, the probe should be held early. Why don't you agree to his suggestion," Mr Singh said.

He added, "We should not make allegations against each other till the truth is known."

The BJP leader's comments assume significance in the context of high decibel attack launched by his party against the government, including Prime Minister Manmohan Singh besides Congress chief Sonia Gandhi over the scandal.

Mr Singh admitted that the tender specifications were changed during NDA rule. "Yes, what he has said is true," he said when asked to comment on remarks by former Air Force chief Tyagi that the specifications in the tender were changed in 2003 during the NDA rule.

At that time, George Fernandes was the Defence Minister. Italian prosecutors have contended that the specifications were altered to make AgustaWestland's helicopters eligible in the contract for the 12 VVIP helicopter deal.

Among the changes made were the reduction in the altitude from 18,000 ft to 15,000 ft and it is alleged that the then National Security Advisor (NSA) Brajesh Mishra was instrumental in these alterations.

 

[Mujraparty]

as per latest IBN reports , it was tyagi who changed the requirements to favor Austa Wasteland , and report also says he met the middlemen atleast 8 times ,once in his uniform . if this is true then shame on u MR Tyagi