Ex-army Major, Colonel involved in robbery of millions’

[Icarus]

Fear is what stops some people from committing crimes. If they do not fear Allah then, the punishment has to be met out and this will cut down on all kinds of crimes. Punishment is a deterrence! Unfortunately, we have crooks in power, so why would they bring in appropriate punishment and condemn themselves.

Indeed, fear is a powerful deterrent but you will remember that during the great famine, the punishment for thievery was commuted because it was stated through ijtehad that if a person had stolen out of dire hunger then it had been the failure of those around him to meet his needs and thus in those circumstances, amputation of the arm was suspended. Seeing Pakistan's situation, who do you feel is capable enough to judge if someone stole out of dire need or through greed?

Sharia is the ONLY answer!

Do you limit Sharia to just beheading and the amputation of hands?

 

[MastanKhan]

Exactly my point sir, it will create deterrence through fear but that is not the way a healthy society deals with its problems. Change has to come from within, through respect for ideals and not fear of harsh punishment.

Hi,

If you look at all these societies---England,germany, Italy, france, Holland, Switzerland, usa----all these countries established their foundations on ruthless and brutal imposition of punishment.

In good old England---villages and towns would skin the thieves alive----fill their skin with hay----and hang it outside of the city limits to warn would be criminals what happens in that town---.

In the U S---the punishment for stealing in some states is as severe as murder---the length of the terms are astounding at times.


Azad-Kashmiri --- guy---- I wrote something different---you replied to what---I don't know----.

 

[Azad-Kashmiri]

Indeed, fear is a powerful deterrent but you will remember that during the great famine, the punishment for thievery was commuted because it was stated through ijtehad that if a person had stolen out of dire hunger then it had been the failure of those around him to meet his needs and thus in those circumstances, amputation of the arm was suspended. Seeing Pakistan's situation, who do you feel is capable enough to judge if someone stole out of dire need or through greed?

Do you even know what permits someone from losing their limb? We are NOT talking about people stealing food to survive, are we? We are talking about the Ex-Major who stole MILLIONS!

Who can judge? Qadi


Do you limit Sharia to just beheading and the amputation of hands?

Sorry, you don't know what Sharia is! It is a complete Judicial, Political, Social, and Economic system.

Honestly, hasn't it ever occurred to you why after 1989, Islam/Muslims have been under attack? We have a complete system that is a challenge to capitalism.

Samuel Huntington's, piece on ''clash of civilisations'' was in the Economist edition in 1995. It talked about all ideologies, including Hinduism and said, no threat! Communism is defeated and now the future threat is Islam. There was no 9/11, there was no terrorism, so why? He said, the West needs an enemy!

I will not quote from Islamic sources as I think I understand your mentality.

I suggest you Google Albert Pike and the Three World Wars. He was a Zionist in a letter he wrote to Mazzini, dated August 15, 1871.

YES, 1871. Forget when he mentions he saw a ''vision'', they are the architects and did what he wrote in his letter.

Hi,

If you look at all these societies---England,germany, Italy, france, Holland, Switzerland, usa----all these countries established their foundations on ruthless and brutal imposition of punishment.

In good old England---villages and towns would skin the thieves alive----fill their skin with hay----and hang it outside of the city limits to warn would be criminals what happens in that town---.

In the U S---the punishment for stealing in some states is as severe as murder---the length of the terms are astounding at times.


Azad-Kashmiri --- guy---- I wrote something different---you replied to what---I don't know----.

I must have mispost it. Sorry! I'm new here and feeling my way around this forum.

 

[Bratva]

@Azad-Kashmiri The failure of shariah system was evident when civil wars started with the death Third caliph Hazrat Usman RA. So no it's not a magic bullet which can provide answer to everything

@Icarus If I recall correctly, during seige of GHQ and occupation of MI building, there were civilian employees as well who became hostage there

 

[Azad-Kashmiri]

@Azad-Kashmiri The failure of shariah system was evident when civil wars started with the death Third caliph Hazrat Usman RA. So no it's not a magic bullet which can provide answer to everything

What on earth are you on about? The Islamic system was only dismantled in 1922. It lasted for over 1,000 years and was destroyed only because the Arabs could not accept a non-Arab Caliph and joined forces with the British. The whole of Europe, except for Germany was not at War with them.

Btw, there were four rightly guided calphs and you forgot to mention the last of them, Ali radi Allahu anhum. After them Islamic Sharia was still implemented up an til 1922.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sorry, you don't know what Sharia is! It is a complete Judicial, Political, Social, and Economic system.

Honestly, hasn't it ever occurred to you why after 1989, Islam/Muslims have been under attack? We have a complete system that is a challenge to capitalism.

Samuel Huntington's, piece on ''clash of civilisations'' was in the Economist edition in 1995. It talked about all ideologies, including Hinduism and said, no threat! Communism is defeated and now the future threat is Islam. There was no 9/11, there was no terrorism, so why? He said, the West needs an enemy!

I will not quote from Islamic sources as I think I understand your mentality.

I suggest you Google Albert Pike and the Three World Wars. He was a Zionist in a letter he wrote to Mazzini, dated August 15, 1871.

YES, 1871. Forget when he mentions he saw a ''vision'', they are the architects and did what he wrote in his letter.



I must have mispost it. Sorry! I'm new here and feeling my way around this forum.

Sharia law---as defined by Pakistanis is a FRAUD---it is deceitful and---it is deceptive---it is discriminative---. Sharia law is nothing but the tribal law of Saudi Arabia modified---.

We are a nation state----we are not a tribal state---. In a nation sate---blood money for murder is not acceptable---. It should not be acceptable.

In a nation state---we owe our allegiance to the state---the state by default protects us over any regional, tribal or other boundaries---. In a nations state---any crime committed against the individual is a crime against the state. So any justice meted out has to satisfy the sovereignty of the state.

There is no place for 4 witnesses in case of rape---. One witness is enugh. Forensic science supercedes all witnesses.

 

[Dubious]

Exactly my point sir, it will create deterrence through fear but that is not the way a healthy society deals with its problems.

Key words: Healthy society not one living off robbing the poor and lying through their teeth......none is a sign of healthy society....Hence strict punishments to hold the reins are needed!

Change has to come from within, through respect for ideals and not fear of harsh punishment.

Change is for people who understand the need for it not those who live off backing each crook and getting backed up when that crook is in charge (this seems the case for everything from the courts, politicians, govt officers, police, feudal lords and now the army too each is busy earning favours and granting favours and cashing it.

Seeing Pakistan's situation, who do you feel is capable enough to judge if someone stole out of dire need or through greed?

When you steal millions, I assure you it is not dire need and pure greed.....

When you get a cut with each project despite having VAST land, assets and a stead income...rest assured it is greed.

When you dont work and live off donations and even that doesnt satisfy you you go doing bhatta khori, I dont think that is need anymore....

When you can afford your daily basics but just coz you neighbour has a larger stereo system than yours and you do anything from bribery to stealing, it does indicate greed in capital letters!

@Azad-Kashmiri The failure of shariah system was evident when civil wars started with the death Third caliph Hazrat Usman RA. So no it's not a magic bullet which can provide answer to everything

Shariah law doesnt cover the intent of a person nor does it cover when one overthrows a govt or some people have differences in opinion and form 2 armies to "handle things like men"...

Shariah law is not a given book from heaven....it is a set of laws derived from the Quran, hadith and practices of the prophet and the sahaba.....more on the how the prophet ruled his life...However, as the years went by, science came in and so did technology, the shura council used to "update" the law based on current discoveries and hardships....

Hence, a law which is dynamic cant ever fail. Problems with people and greed should not be blamed on laws which are present but not referred to!

The day people forget the Quran will be the day when Qiamat will come.....sadly, it has already started when the enemies of islam (terrorists), wrong reporting and badgering of media, stupid illiterate neighbourhoodMullah , media misreporting and stereotyping things without knowing the truth anything and everything that hides truth (as stated by the Quran) have already put in enough anger and hatred against our very religion - enough for us to doubt it without knowing its basics.....

Sharia law---as defined by Pakistanis is a FRAUD---it is deceitful and---it is deceptive---it is discriminative---. Sharia law is nothing but the tribal law of Saudi Arabia modified---.

We are a nation state----we are not a tribal state---. In a nation sate---blood money for murder is not acceptable---. It should not be acceptable.

In a nation state---we owe our allegiance to the state---the state by default protects us over any regional, tribal or other boundaries---. In a nations state---any crime committed against the individual is a crime against the state. So any justice meted out has to satisfy the sovereignty of the state.

There is no place for 4 witnesses in case of rape---. One witness is enugh. Forensic science supercedes all witnesses.

Hello, I agreed with everything you said....Except what you outlined is what you will actually find in Sharaih...A simple murder is given the status of murdering all mankind...

As for 4 witness....kindly dont blame the law which never stated this....The shariah commands the men who accuse women to produce 4 witness if they wish to tarnish her reputation ....not for rape but when a male speaks BS against a woman. And the same law further states if the 4 witness do come forward - they need to have seen the act done not a drop of suspicion is allowed followed by punishment for the witness coz they did not stop a crime from happening...It is a rigid law to protect the women from men tarnishing her reputation and also a warning for those who dare to bravely come forward and claim to be witness .....and if there is even 1 witness less, the accuser and the 3 witness are to be punished to attempt such a shit!

Do you wish to know what the tribal law of Saudi was and has managed to seep into what many call Sharah now? It is the law of the cavemen....which sadly is being practiced all over the world however, noone is as filthy rich as the ruler hence it seems like only Saudi practices it...However, the extra BS Saudi does throw is birth right - superiority complex which they were clearly warned against but have forgotten....There is more to add to this and none of it is nice nor any part of Shariah....

 

[Icarus]

@Azad-Kashmiri The failure of shariah system was evident when civil wars started with the death Third caliph Hazrat Usman RA. So no it's not a magic bullet which can provide answer to everything

@Icarus If I recall correctly, during seige of GHQ and occupation of MI building, there were civilian employees as well who became hostage there

That was the MP building I believe, housing the guards. GHQ has several directorates that hires civilians.

Sorry, you don't know what Sharia is! It is a complete Judicial, Political, Social, and Economic system.

Honestly, hasn't it ever occurred to you why after 1989, Islam/Muslims have been under attack? We have a complete system that is a challenge to capitalism.

Samuel Huntington's, piece on ''clash of civilisations'' was in the Economist edition in 1995. It talked about all ideologies, including Hinduism and said, no threat! Communism is defeated and now the future threat is Islam. There was no 9/11, there was no terrorism, so why? He said, the West needs an enemy!

I will not quote from Islamic sources as I think I understand your mentality.

I suggest you Google Albert Pike and the Three World Wars. He was a Zionist in a letter he wrote to Mazzini, dated August 15, 1871.

YES, 1871. Forget when he mentions he saw a ''vision'', they are the architects and did what he wrote in his letter.
.

I know perfectly well what Shariah is, I wanted to gauge your interpretation of it, how deep you think it penetrates into society because there is no set criteria about what Shariah is, it is an interpretation of law as derived and interpreted by scholars of the time, it is not a code that was revealed like the Quran. That being said, the age for that version of the Shariah has passed, what is needed is not laws that were meant to govern a vast tribal empire but laws that are more in synch with today's situation which requires ijtehad in the modern era.
I have read the Clash of Civilizations thoroughly and it does NOT speak about ideologies, it speaks about civilizations, you are misquoting the material to support your own argument. He never said that the west needs an enemy, he said that the age of ideological warfare has passed and the age of war of ethnicity will take its place.
As for my mentality, I would like to quote: "Lo! For only He knows what is in their hearts". Just because I have a disagreement with you does not make you a better muslim or a better human that you can talk down to me, perhaps now I know what your mentality is.

 

[Neutron]

These are black sheeeeeeeps kind of sheeeps present in every department. These are thieves from the corrupt society under the rule of corrupt and politician like NS and zardari under the nose of corrupt judiciary and sold out media.

 

[rockstar08]

@Azad-Kashmiri The failure of shariah system was evident when civil wars started with the death Third caliph Hazrat Usman RA. So no it's not a magic bullet which can provide answer to everything

@Icarus If I recall correctly, during seige of GHQ and occupation of MI building, there were civilian employees as well who became hostage there

I wont call it a failure ... it was merely a clash between two Parties ... there is a clear solution in the Quran when two Muslims brother fight ..
even i am not in Favor of Shariya but .... that system have never been understood by people after the early Caliphs that word " Shariya " was used to fulfill the hunger of Power for some losers .

On topic , as its mentioned that they are retired , so its stupid to blame Army for that .. Army cant keep an eye on every retired major or General what is he been upto ...

 

[Bratva]

I wont call it a failure ... it was merely a clash between two Parties ... there is a clear solution in the Quran when two Muslims brother fight ..
even i am not in Favor of Shariya but .... that system have never been understood by people after the early Caliphs that word " Shariya " was used to fulfill the hunger of Power for some losers .

On topic , as its mentioned that they are retired , so its stupid to blame Army for that .. Army cant keep an eye on every retired major or General what is he been upto ...

If you go into depth of that mere clash, there were deep fissures among various muslim sections due to Hazrat Usman RA lax attitude of governance .The death of Hazrat Usman RA and civil war proved one thing, Even quran and sunnah of couldn't stop those Sahabas and Qaroon e oola Muslims for going at war over tribal disputes. All in all, Hazrat Ali caliphate didn't get down well with Banu ummayyah as to be ruled over by banu hashim and coupled with his delaying of meting justice to those muslim rebels.

So when muslim of today ask for shariah and make silly arguments our problems could go away like a magic bullet, they need to look into history and need to understand racial,sectarian, tribal clashes triumph shariah quran and sunnah completely.

But one thing proved. If you have a strict ,judicious and danday wala leader like Hazrat Abu Bakr and Hazrat Umar RA were, You could rule and expand and maintain peace over your empire irrespective of the religion of leader.

Abraham lincoln is another example of what leader should be

 

[rockstar08]

If you go into depth of that mere clash, there were deep fissures among various muslim sections due to Hazrat Usman RA lax attitude of governance .The death of Hazrat Usman RA and civil war proved one thing, Even quran and sunnah of couldn't stop those Sahabas and Qaroon e oola Muslims for going at war over tribal disputes. All in all, Hazrat Ali caliphate didn't get down well with Banu ummayyah as to be ruled over by banu hashim and coupled with his delaying of meting justice to those muslim rebels.

So when muslim of today ask for shariah and make silly arguments our problems could go away like a magic bullet, they need to look into history and need to understand racial,sectarian, tribal clashes triumph shariah quran and sunnah completely.

But one thing proved. If you have a strict ,judicious and danday wala leader like Hazrat Abu Bakr and Hazrat Umar RA were, You could rule and expand and maintain peace over your empire irrespective of the religion of leader.

Abraham lincoln is another example of what leader should be

well you are right .. but i guess it was not his lax governance , there were minor glitches even in the time of Hazart Abu Bakr and Umar R.A .. but a civil war serve its purpose to divide the Muslims in to two parts ...
we can not forget the issues between Hazat Umar and Hazart Abu Bakr R.A , related to Hazart Khalid bin waleed as Military commander , he was stripped by Hazart Umar RA during the battle , that could also lead to a disaster if Muslims were demoralized ... again i stand that people take arms against their ruler is not the problem of the System at that time ..

with the death of Hazart Uthman R.A , the rebels have tasted the blood of the companion of Prophet Muhammad pbuh ..
so it wont be easy to deal with such Fitna's among the muslims , and of course , there is always people like Abu Sufiyan Among Muslims , who barely accept Islam from their hearts ..

Muslims have no idea how the Shariya works , so expecting something better from majority of the muslims who are uneducated and mostly depends on the local mullah to teach them ..
Hazart Umar RA has ruled the Islamic Empire with the same system , even though he was considered to be the most strict Ruler but still in his tenure the Minorities were safe and secure ..
so his time of Ruling is itself a proof that Shariya is not the problem but its interpretation