Ethnonationalism

[Sayfullah]

even the most fervent ethno-nationalist draw the line at separation be it Pashtun, Sindh, Punjabi spaces (afaik), Pakistan except for Baluchistan no truly English educated will talk against Pakistan the country
they hate Pakistani nationalism (including Punjabi spaces) and I agree with some of their arguments here
Will crap talk about different groups of Pakistan - Sindhi-Muhajir beef, Pashtun hating on Punjabis and Punjabis crap talking Pashtuns (tbf this is a historical beef dating back centuries), Hindustani people
Pashtun, Punjabis are both very much into Pakistani nationalist (not talking about Reddit in general) compared to other groups, also (because are neighbors) have Punjabi pathan and Hindko phenomenon -

but the ethno-centric folks of both sides don't particularly like each other, ethno-nationalist folks holds Ranjeet Singh in good light, respected figure cause he stopped and pushed back Afghans (the whole "Sher-e-punjab" and Ranjeets statue thing was the conspiracy of liberal ethno-nationalist and it would have stayed that way till islamists pushed back and said enough of this BS)

They like those Afghan invasions because of Muslim brotherhood (you can still see islamists of punjab cheering on TTA and wanting a merger of two states under shari'a) - not only have historically they invited Afghans to Punjab against non-muslims
but stiffest opposition to khalsa rule was put up by islamist Peers of Punjab who in the name of jihad would raise jathas against khalsas (multiple times during course of Thier rule, Jihadi Lashkars led by some islamic figure would appear) while the regular people would consider them Thier own people or were too tired after 94 years of constant turmoil and moved on with life)
I think invasions of Punjab to some extent become successful because of struggle between secularists believing in co-existance vs islamists who helped the invasions in the name of Islam, jihad

https://twitter.com/x/status/1344655855132655619

This internal struggle meant people were always divided on how to approach invasions

But after Pakistan we can see islamist won this almost 1000 y/o internal struggle and now for the most part islamic brotherhood before.other divisions is the mainstream approach

Honestly islamist do keep our ethno-centric steak at check (ANP-JUI, here TLP stopped the statues) @Jf-17 block 3 is right in some ways here

Back to topic
Its mostly about promoting local culture, history, language etc etc nothing too serious

Keep in mind reddit is mostly of English speaking diaspora and not people living in Pakistan and will attract ethno-centric folks in the first place so this is a very small, specific group of people

Islamists just accept the fact that Pakistani nationalism doesn’t exist at least at this point of time. To ensure Pakistans survival and stability we want our country’s focus to be Islam because the one thing a Baloch and Punjabi in Pakistan have in common is Islam. With us remaining as a Islamic republic and not becoming secular we have something in common with other ethnicities of Pakistan and that’s what makes us united. Even most of our army many join because they want to be martyrs according to Islam they want to do jihad according to Islamic principles they don’t join the army to fight for nationalism or secularism they go to become a shaheed while doing jihad.
We don’t want a merger with Afghanistan becoming a Islamist doesn’t mean you don’t recognize any borders we just want a European Union type alliance between Muslim countries and a NATO type alliance. If white countries can have such alliances and be united against their enemy why can’t we put aside our differences and make our own grand Muslim alliance? It’ll sure save us from all the infighting we do amongst our selves.
Sikh rule was brutal they wouldn’t let Muslims do azaan they would turn our masjids into places for them to put their horses. Sikh rule disrespected every Muslim Punjabi or not and their us like shit and oppressed us. As Muslims were told to do jihad against oppressors the oppressor can be Punjabi or even my own blood brother that doesn’t matter.

If we look at it from a Islamist pov if Balochistan was most Islamists we wouldn’t see a bla or blf type insurgency. Had Balochistan been mostly Islamist you wouldn’t see any separatists because that would be against Islamist views. Sure you possibly could have seen a Islamist type insurgency but those are probably easier to deal with then etho nationalist insurgency. After all most Islamists in Pakistan like 99% are anti ttp and consider them khawarij and would fight against them and have fought against them.

Had Bangladesh been mostly Islamists back in 71 I can confidently say it they would still be east Pakistan today not matter what our differences were they wouldn’t have separated.

This is where my point comes in the more we focus on Pakistani nationalism and secularism the more we give power to these etho nationalist and the more separatist movements we see.
History has shown whenever pak army was in a difficult place Islamists were the first ones to pick up weapons and fight alongside pak army. 1947, 1965, 1971, 1999. 1980s Afghan jihad. 1990s Kashmir uprising. 2000s Afghan jihad 2.0.
Whenever army needed help they always used Islamists for their wars because they know we would be the only ones to fight because liberal secularists have no reason to die we have a reason to die though because we’re doing jihad to become a martyr.

 

[CatSultan]

There was a poll done. and in the poll most ethnicities identified as Pakistani or Muslim first except sindhis.

here is the poll
Source

Pakistani Public Opinion

Pakistani public opinion has turned against al Qaeda and the Taliban, and no fewer than 69% of those polled express worry that extremists will take control of the nation. Ratings for President Asif Ali Zardari have also plummeted, as Pakistanis see their country in crisis.

www.pewresearch.org

@Sainthood 101
@Jf-17 block 3
@Picard578
@SaadH
@Vapnope

 

[Sayfullah]

There was a poll done. and in the poll most ethnicities identified as Pakistani or Muslim first except sindhis.
View attachment 809915
here is the poll
Source

Pakistani Public Opinion

Pakistani public opinion has turned against al Qaeda and the Taliban, and no fewer than 69% of those polled express worry that extremists will take control of the nation. Ratings for President Asif Ali Zardari have also plummeted, as Pakistanis see their country in crisis.

www.pewresearch.org

@Sainthood 101
@Jf-17 block 3
@Picard578
@SaadH
@Vapnope

That pill further proves my point because if we compare Sindh to Punjab or Kpk we see Sindh in general is far less religious the people there their more focused on Sindhi culture and their ethnicity. Since their less religious and more culture focused they typically are more etho nationalist type whereas a KpK or Punjab which are far more religious then Sindh have far less etho nationalist and more people who identify as Pakistani and Muslim first.

Pakistani nationalism basically doesn’t exist it’ll be very hard to get people to believe in Pakistani nationalism without Islam uniting us.
If we get people to identify as Muslim first before their ethnicity we can use that as a factor to unite the whole nation and not have ethnic violence since we’re all Muslims. You can be a Islamist mindset while supporting Pakistan’s borders and territorial integrity and against TTP and other khawarij.

We should make our society like Indonesias with lots of masjids and madressas but our madressas better then universities when in comes to education and teach science and maths in madressas too.
Instead of hating Mullahs and madressas let’s make Mullahs have math and science degrees and teach quality education in madressas alongside religious studies. We could have a very educated prosperous Islamic society and be a example for the rest of the Islamic world.

 

[PakSarZameen47]

That pill further proves my point because if we compare Sindh to Punjab or Kpk we see Sindh in general is far less religious the people there their more focused on Sindhi culture and their ethnicity. Since their less religious and more culture focused they typically are more etho nationalist type whereas a KpK or Punjab which are far more religious then Sindh have far less etho nationalist and more people who identify as Pakistani and Muslim first.

Pakistani nationalism basically doesn’t exist it’ll be very hard to get people to believe in Pakistani nationalism without Islam uniting us.
If we get people to identify as Muslim first before their ethnicity we can use that as a factor to unite the whole nation and not have ethnic violence since we’re all Muslims. You can be a Islamist mindset while supporting Pakistan’s borders and territorial integrity and against TTP and other khawarij.

We should make our society like Indonesias with lots of masjids and madressas but our madressas better then universities when in comes to education and teach science and maths in madressas too.
Instead of hating Mullahs and madressas let’s make Mullahs have math and science degrees and teach quality education in madressas alongside religious studies. We could have a very educated prosperous Islamic society and be a example for the rest of the Islamic world.

Pakistani nationalism/Pakistaniyat is islamic though that was the point. There is no Pakistani nationalism without Islam

 

[Sayfullah]

Pakistani nationalism/Pakistaniyat is islamic though that was the point. There is no Pakistani nationalism without Islam

No Nationalism is Islamic.
Nationalism is against Islam.

 

[peagle]

Pakistani nationalism/Pakistaniyat is islamic though that was the point. There is no Pakistani nationalism without Islam

I'm sorry yaar but that interpretation is a bit too simplistic.
It would be correct to say, that religion is part of Pakistani nationalism or Pakistaniate, but not that Pakistaniate cannot exist without religion, especially just Islam.

There are non Muslim Pakistanis who are extremely patriotic, many have died for our country, that statement is an insult to their sacrifices.

I myself am Muslim by birth, but not at all religious, Islam is a proud part of my identity but my Pakistaniate exists separate from Islam. My Muslim identity enhances my Pakistaniate, but they are not dependant on one another. It is important to be clear.
You may have certain feelings, but others have different feelings, that are just as important and just as patriotic.

 

[CatSultan]

There was a poll done. and in the poll most ethnicities identified as Pakistani or Muslim first except sindhis.
View attachment 809915
here is the poll
Source

Pakistani Public Opinion

Pakistani public opinion has turned against al Qaeda and the Taliban, and no fewer than 69% of those polled express worry that extremists will take control of the nation. Ratings for President Asif Ali Zardari have also plummeted, as Pakistanis see their country in crisis.

www.pewresearch.org

@Sainthood 101
@Jf-17 block 3
@Picard578
@SaadH
@Vapnope

I should mention that the majority of sindhis still identify as Pakistani first they just have the least.

 

[CatSultan]

That pill further proves my point because if we compare Sindh to Punjab or Kpk we see Sindh in general is far less religious the people there their more focused on Sindhi culture and their ethnicity. Since their less religious and more culture focused they typically are more etho nationalist type whereas a KpK or Punjab which are far more religious then Sindh have far less etho nationalist and more people who identify as Pakistani and Muslim first.

Pakistani nationalism basically doesn’t exist it’ll be very hard to get people to believe in Pakistani nationalism without Islam uniting us.
If we get people to identify as Muslim first before their ethnicity we can use that as a factor to unite the whole nation and not have ethnic violence since we’re all Muslims. You can be a Islamist mindset while supporting Pakistan’s borders and territorial integrity and against TTP and other khawarij.

We should make our society like Indonesias with lots of masjids and madressas but our madressas better then universities when in comes to education and teach science and maths in madressas too.
Instead of hating Mullahs and madressas let’s make Mullahs have math and science degrees and teach quality education in madressas alongside religious studies. We could have a very educated prosperous Islamic society and be a example for the rest of the Islamic world.

you might be interested in this thread https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/muhammad-iqbal-on-islamic-nationalism.728865/

 

[hydrabadi_arab]

even the most fervent ethno-nationalist draw the line at separation be it Pashtun, Sindh, Punjabi spaces (afaik), Pakistan except for Baluchistan no truly English educated will talk against Pakistan the country

I wonder why? Recent pashtun-punjabi migration to all over Pakistan and losing access to sea for trade could be one reason. For Sindhis any such adventure mean they will have to give up Karachi-Hydrabad region. There is nothing for Baloch to worry because they are not as integrated. Balochistan is huge with little population and integration project is barely 20 years old, post Musharraf era. It will take time but separatist baloch will also come in terms with Pakistan.

 

[hydrabadi_arab]

There was a poll done. and in the poll most ethnicities identified as Pakistani or Muslim first except sindhis.
View attachment 809915
here is the poll
Source

Pakistani Public Opinion

Pakistani public opinion has turned against al Qaeda and the Taliban, and no fewer than 69% of those polled express worry that extremists will take control of the nation. Ratings for President Asif Ali Zardari have also plummeted, as Pakistanis see their country in crisis.

www.pewresearch.org

@Sainthood 101
@Jf-17 block 3
@Picard578
@SaadH
@Vapnope

This further prove my point that self interest is ultimate nationalism. Pashtun, punjabi and muhajir cannot live without each other or Pakistan. Sindhi separatism will be majority if not for the fact that Karachi-hydrabad cannot become part of hypothetical Sindhudesh.

 

[SaadH]

There was a poll done. and in the poll most ethnicities identified as Pakistani or Muslim first except sindhis.
View attachment 809915
here is the poll
Source

Pakistani Public Opinion

Pakistani public opinion has turned against al Qaeda and the Taliban, and no fewer than 69% of those polled express worry that extremists will take control of the nation. Ratings for President Asif Ali Zardari have also plummeted, as Pakistanis see their country in crisis.

www.pewresearch.org

@Sainthood 101
@Jf-17 block 3
@Picard578
@SaadH
@Vapnope

Not surprising in the least. All the more reason to dismantle PPP's decades of playing victim and keeping the Sindhi masses perpetually ignorant and unproductive.

But establishment would have to play ball, which they are currently unwilling to do. They've refused to affectively counter the Baloch insurgency, leave alone this low burning anti-state sentiment amongst the Sindhis, who BTW have a lot more opportunities of social advancement than an Urdu speaker of urban Sindh.

 

[khansaheeb]

How big if an issue is ethnonationalism in Pakistan? Recently I've seen some punjabi ethnonationalism online which is something I've never seen before so naturally it's quite concerning...

Just Indian agents spreading disunity and discord between Pakistanis.

 

[Sayfullah]

you might be interested in this thread https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/muhammad-iqbal-on-islamic-nationalism.728865/

As I’ve said many times to you and to others who quote that thread, that book the picture is from is a qadiyani book and qadiyani are not considered Muslims, not even Pakistans constitution considers them Muslims. Hence, anything written in that book means nothing to me. According to Sunni Islam, Nationalism is Haram and that’s my view on it too.

 

[krash]

India is more diverse than us yet they don't seem to have the same level of seperatism.

Not that it matters but you might want to double check that.

 

[CatSultan]

As I’ve said many times to you and to others who quote that thread, that book the picture is from is a qadiyani book and qadiyani are not considered Muslims, not even Pakistans constitution considers them Muslims. Hence, anything written in that book means nothing to me. According to Sunni Islam, Nationalism is Haram and that’s my view on it too.

Its by Muhammad Iqbal refuting Qadiyanism.