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Election commission Ignores Blatant Bribery video & Statements by Ali Gillani & Maryam Nawaz

The issue is the process of senate elections has always been tainted with corruption- its an open secret that votes are bought for money. Only someone naive if Pakistani political history would think that senate elections have ever been without corruption. Asif Ali Zaradri had openly challenged that he can buy votes - and boy what a game he played this time. No wonder Pakistan is like the way it is.

I agree, Pakistani elections of all sorts are rife with corruption, malpractice, and rigging. But they are also filled with opportunists and turncoat politicians, PTI also has plenty of those in its ranks. I don't like the current one-sided approach, allegations of corruption and election related averous need investigation, and his attack on ECP is complete nonsense. If he suspects wrong doing, he should file a judicial reference as he has done on other matters, and then have the relevant agencies which are under his control (FIA, IB etc.) collect evidence and present it to ECP and before the courts. If he finds strong evidence of either ECP wrongdoing, or corruption by members, and then not only could the results be challenged, they could probably be annulled along with some disqualifications. But I know he won't do this.
 
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I agree, Pakistani elections of all sorts are rife with corruption, malpractice, and rigging. But they are also filled with opportunists and turncoat politicians, PTI also has plenty of those in its ranks. I don't like the current one-sided approach, allegations of corruption and election related averous need investigation, and his attack on ECP is complete nonsense. If he suspects wrong doing, he should file a judicial reference as he has done on other matters, and then have the relevant agencies which are under his control (FIA, IB etc.) collect evidence and present it to ECP and before the courts. If he finds strong evidence of either ECP wrongdoing, or corruption by members, and then not only could the results be challenged, they could probably be annulled along with some disqualifications. But I know he won't do this.
I don’t think any one is accusing ECP of actually taking part in the malpractice. I have listened to his speech and he didn’t make any such claim that you are refuting in your post. ECP is however, as always, accused of being criminally negligent of not utilizing their powers properly to ensure corruption free elections, despite getting clear directions and mandate to use their powers from SC. Basically they are looking just the other way. They deferred the traceability of votes to next elections after the SC decision. Now whether this can be filed in Pakistani court of law is questionable, but it has and definitely will be filed in the political landscape to garner support for transparent elections - poltics will happen despite it not being an offense under law strictly. So as PDM is free to barrage COAS Bajwa any time they want, I think we have to let IK do the same with ECP officials now as well. The allegations of actual corruption (ie the act of selling and buying votes) are for own PTI members and the usual suspect - Asif Zardari.
 
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I don’t think any one is accusing ECP of actually taking part in the malpractice. I have listened to his speech and he didn’t make any such claim that you are refuting in your post. ECP is however, as always, accused of being criminally negligent of not utilizing their powers properly to ensure corruption free elections, despite getting clear directions and mandate to use their powers from SC. Basically they are looking just the other way. They deferred the traceability of votes to next elections after the SC decision. Now whether this can be filed in Pakistani court of law is questionable, but it has and definitely will be filed in the political landscape to garner support for transparent elections - poltics will happen despite it not being an offense under law strictly. So as PDM is free to barrage COAS Bajwa any time they want, I think we have to let IK do the same with ECP officials now as well. The allegations of actual corruption (ie the act of selling and buying votes) are for own PTI members and the usual suspect - Asif Zardari.

That's debatable. He accused them of siding with the opposition, which for an institution like ECP implies more than just bias or unfairness. He also accused them of allowing corruption and damaging democracy, his words as far as I remember. Also, you yourself just twice used the words "criminally negligent". This goes against the narrative you're saying that he wasn't going after them for being complicit. If it is criminal negligence, then he should file a judicial reference and open investigations, otherwise his speech was nothing more than a politically motivated stunt to defame ECP for not siding with him.

These are political matters and we don’t need to become pedantic so soon. Every political takes time, effort and momentum to become actionable in form of new laws, collection of evidence, court cases, etc. Take the panama case conclusion in SC, up till then the outreach from PTI was all political- ie NS based on his assets is corrupt based on perception and circustantial evidences etc. But the exact evidences and proofs were collected by a JIT and the followed multiple references in NAB which ended up in conviction.
Election rigging is a reality in Pakistan - even current opposition narrative is also based on it.

Please provide me one reason why would somebody from PTI would bother voting for an Asif Ali Zaradri backed candidate Yusuf Raza Gilani, a shameful dishonerable person who stole a necklace denoted by Turk First lady for poor displaced people of Pakistan as a gift for her own wife - I dont need quote any ayat fron Quran about stealing from whats meant for charity and orphans now - they would do this against their party narrative and direction, against the oath the gave themselves to their party chairman, in such a large quantity- other than a monetary reason? If this was a respectable personality, whose political influence transeded beyond political lines, and there was a political or ideological stance involved- the sure it may have been considered as “zameer ki awaz”. But really a convicted, disqualified and disgraced ex pm, who on record said in a bbc interview “why dont these poor people just leave the country if they are not happy?” ... this guy can only win votes that were not meant for him with corruption and bribery only. Now that is the political narrative being projected by PTI and PM and why some people are getting emotional. I dont know about PMLN folks now, but Gilani has disgraced Pakistani nation and performed open corruption and atleast I remember how Pakistan was plundered during PPP time, so to see his return on back of corruption again is depressing, and I think that is where PM is as well.
However on the other ha you can definitely believe that Ex PM Gilani won the seat fair and square, and his honorable personality overcame PTI MNAs vs the party line and IKs directions. You think what ever was discussed about corruption during senate elections in SC proceedings is all fairy tale, then thats your prerogative. Others however have a good sense of smelling the stench of corruption though ...

Problem with Election Commision is, they were and have always been criminally negligent in this and other election duties. They were thoroughly grilled in the last SC proceedings as to why election commision, despite having all the constitutional powers finally does something about these corrupt practices who every single child in Pakistan is aware of. A way was provided to them by making these ballots traceable after voting, but in their high wisdom and display of no tolerance for corruption, decided to not apply it in this election and consider it for next election only ...

(Part in bold) Okay good. Then he will file a judicial review?

And also, in your opinion will he do it before or after any future election or before his removal from office in the case of a no confidence vote? Either the review is today based on principles or at a future date based on settling a score. Will he also be happy for such reviews to be done for the 2018 senate election where his candidates also won extra votes from horse trading? Or is it only bad if the opposition do it.

And as for (second part in bold), PTI members' motivation for not voting for Hafeez Sheikh, or alternatively directly voting in YRG. I am not them, so I can't speak from them. But I can give you some reasons, you have only considered the corruption angle. There are other alternatives, some of these I know of for sure, others I am stipulating:

Firstly party tickets were offered in central and southern Punjab to these PTI members who agreed to cross the floor on this vote. Asif Zardari had been having backdoor meetings, wheeling and dealing, he also assured that the establishment which usually backs PTI will remain fairly neutral. Some of these candidates are worried that they might have to run on an unpopular PTI ticket and lose their seats in any next upcoming election, whether that's 2023 or sooner. This is not illegal I must stress, PTI did the same in previous years, it happens all the time, even happens here in the UK although more rarely.

What usually happens in parliamentary practice on key votes is that when the government or opposition want their members to hold steady on a vote and vote with their party leadership, they can enforce the parliamentary whip, on very key votes there's extra emphasis placed on the whip (second line, third line whip etc.), those who do not comply, as those PTI members who stepped out in that YRG election, they can be threatened with having the whip withdrawn. However, for members such as those (turncoats), who have basically decided that it's in their best interest not to run on a PTI ticket next election, the whip is pretty powerless. Employing the whip against them is like trying to put out a fire by throwing logs of wood.

On the other hand, they themselves are far from powerless, it's why Imran Khan even though he detests those that stepped out, cannot have the whip withdrawn on them, cannot have them named and shamed, and cannot have them kicked out of the party. If he does this now, he'll lose his thin sliver of a coalition majority, and he'll be extremely vulnerable to a vote of no confidence, essentially he and the government could be toppled effortlessly. This is the power and leverage those 16 or so members had and continue to have.

What other reasons did they not vote for the Sheikh? Well Hafeez Sheikh is actually a pretty poor candidate, he's seen as an unpopular technocrat responsible for harsh (but necessary imo) fiscal policy. He's seen as an outsider, and he's not popular among voters nor even in PTI ranks. Some members might have even had personal issues and quarrels. Which brings me to my final point. It's no secret that PTI has seen its fair share of infighting, kaptaan may be a uniting force, but when your constituents are lambasting you over local and national performance, when development funds were not there till the last moment, when a future election loss looms, and when you and your friends have been passed up for key ministerial and other government positions in favour of technocrats like Hafeez Sheikh, and when you yourself have a history of being a turncoat who fled N league to join Q, then join PTI, or N to PTI, or PPP to PTI... when after all this is said and done, and Zardari came knocking offering a ticket, some people caved.

In fact, Zardari by his own calculations was expecting something like 20+ members to move from PTI into their corner. In the future, these members could be activated for a no confidence vote, then there'll be big trouble. Two reasons that his calculations were wrong; firstly there was an 11th hour intervention by both establishment guys and IK, the former politely requested a few to hold still, the latter offered development funds along with a crack of the whip. And the second reason some have not budged yet is that they are unsure and want guarantees form N and PPP that they WILL receive tickets and accommodation for them will be made for them in the next election.

So could corruption also have been a factor? Sure, but that needs some evidence as it's an accusation of crime and election rigging. But a lot of the vote switching can be explained by turncoats in PTI's ranks, horse trading, ticket and incentives, along with the unpopularity of the government candidate.

Also, I'm a little busy for the rest of today and in the coming days, so you might have to wait a bit for another reply. Thanks.
 
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That's debatable. He accused them of siding with the opposition, which for an institution like ECP implies more than just bias or unfairness. He also accused them of allowing corruption and damaging democracy, his words as far as I remember. Also, you yourself just twice used the words "criminally negligent". This goes against the narrative you're saying that he wasn't going after them for being complicit. If it is criminal negligence, then he should file a judicial reference and open investigations, otherwise his speech was nothing more than a politically motivated stunt to defame ECP for not siding with him.
The criticism of ECP is their lack of proactiveness and proper use of constitutional powers to stop known corrupt practices, which every one knows happens, but they never bother to do due diligence. Criminal negligence can be used in general sense as well. The decision of ECP to not make votes traceable, despite directions from SC, is clearly apparent - and is negligence. Whether this is punishable in Pakistani law, given it is a constitutional institution, is difficult. What ever happens in a political landscape doesn’t necessarily have to land in a legal battle somewhere , it may in some cases but in others it may not. As I said he has accused them of allowing corruption to happen, as seen by not making votes traceable, and this opinion of ECP sleeping on duty echoes in the public as well as during SC proceedings. i do not understand the over defensiveness for an incompetent institution like ECP, they are not immune from criticism- unlike SC judges who get accused of following Military Generals direction without any evidence, those accusations actually fall within contempt of court, but its a separate debate.

So as I said, you have refuted claims he hasn’t made, and the criticism is due to lack of action from ECP and is condemnable and people of Pakistan have the right to 1) raise questions on decision made by ECP 2) crticize them of being unfair 3) build a political movement to change for the better which always involve identifying the bad in society - in this case role of ECP.
 
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Election commission just like the vast Majority of Pakistan's bureaucracy is filled to the brim with Darabaris of Bhuttos and Shareefs. Nothing good can be expected of them.

Biggest mistake IK did was not to put his men throughout the bureaucracy when he came to power. Both Nawaz and Zaradri were notorious for this when they came into power, to facilitate their corruption. If IK agenda was fight against corruption and better management, why he didn't bring men with right credentials to each department as heads.

He is either soft or badly advised.
 
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First of all, why would you assume that I am supporting any "thugs"? My loyalty lies with the constitution of Pakistan, as yours should too. Governments come and go, constitution and federation stays.

Loyality lies with the state, constitution can be made redundant/changed/amended. If tomorrow constitution declare IK as lifelong president of Pakistan, just like Xi peng, would all , including you give your 100% allegiance?
 
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Loyality lies with the state, constitution can be made redundant/changed/amended. If tomorrow constitution declare IK as lifelong president of Pakistan, just like Xi peng, would all , including you give your 100% allegiance?

That is why no ones getting anywhere near 2 3rd majority anytime soon in the country.

Maybe my grandson can try and have a crack at it when he's 35 after man has abandoned planet earth for mars.
 
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That is why no ones getting anywhere near 2 3rd majority anytime soon in the country.

Maybe my grandson can try and have a crack at it when he's 35 after man has abandoned planet earth for mars.

That was not my question or the argument. Pay attention when replying.
 
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Loyality lies with the state, constitution can be made redundant/changed/amended. If tomorrow constitution declare IK as lifelong president of Pakistan, just like Xi peng, would all , including you give your 100% allegiance?

An amendment like that to the Constitution would threaten the basic structure of it, and our democracy. So it will easily be struck down by the Supreme Court. Please read about the limits to how constitution can be molded and amended.

Constitution if amended by the Parliament, can be disagreed with, but loyalty should still stay with it.
 
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Loyality lies with the state, constitution can be made redundant/changed/amended. If tomorrow constitution declare IK as lifelong president of Pakistan, just like Xi peng, would all , including you give your 100% allegiance?
The constitution is the outlay of the state though, what do you think our soldiers, civilian office holders, judges, etc swear their oaths to? The constitution, among other things.

And the constitution is not final, it can be amended given enough support for change, but balancing state power dictates that the proper legislative process should be followed for amendment. Amendments can fail or be struck down or challenged if they fail to pass the various checks and balances.

IMO, our constitution is really not that bad, a few tweaks and changes could be made, but it’s way better than it used to be, all that is still missing is its proper implementation. If we had had the fortune of having leaders and office holders who followed and enforced a constitution from the start, today people who might otherwise share your view might agree with its sacrosanctity.
 
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An amendment like that to the Constitution would threaten the basic structure of it, and our democracy. So it will easily be struck down by the Supreme Court. Please read about the limits to how constitution can be molded and amended.

Constitution if amended by the Parliament, can be disagreed with, but loyalty should still stay with it.

An amendment like 18th have already threaten the basic structure of the federation of Pakistan and I dont have to remind you about the anxiety it creates among many educated circles within Pakistan.

Loyalty to constitution is very fickle argument. Constitution has been scrapped all together, put in abeyance in past, would that put your loyalty in sleep mode if it happen again?

Constitution do not cover absolute loyalty. Its way down in packing order in the hierarchy on which Pakistan is based on. Please read "objective resolution" which sit above all constitutions of Pakistan, past, present and in future.

Sovereignty over the entire world belongs to Allah Almighty alone and the authority which He has delegated to the state of Pakistan, through its people for being exercised within the limits prescribed by Him is a sacred trust.

Above. The hierarchy is already defined. Sovereignty Belong to Allah --> State of Pakistan --> defined by objective resolution --> Constitution written under the guidelines defined precisely under the objective resolution.

Loyalty to constitution cannot be classed as absolute allegiance. Its the loyalty to state which matters.
 
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The constitution is the outlay of the state though, what do you think our soldiers, civilian office holders, judges, etc swear their oaths to? The constitution, among other things.

And the constitution is not final, it can be amended given enough support for change, but balancing state power dictates that the proper legislative process should be followed for amendment. Amendments can fail or be struck down or challenged if they fail to pass the various checks and balances.

IMO, our constitution is really not that bad, a few tweaks and changes could be made, but it’s way better than it used to be, all that is still missing is its proper implementation. If we had had the fortune of having leaders and office holders who followed and enforced a constitution from the start, today people who might otherwise share your view might agree with its sacrosanctity.

Read above.
 
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