Egyptian Armed Forces

[Frogman]

I remember back in the 80's, Rangers were a big thing. Their units are much smaller and dedicated now but are they still considered Rangers or are the SEALs?

They're still two different things. Rangers are US Army Special Operations Forces while the SEALs are Navy Special Warfare/SF.

The Egyptian Thunderbolt are organised in much the same way, with a "magmo3a" (slightly larger than a section) being the smallest formation than can be put to task instead of a platoon in line infantry.

That's what differentiates the Rangers from Special Forces. They can operate in small groups but still have the ability to work as platoons, companies, and battalions with the associated fire power. Something SF can't and don't do.

Because if you take the US...

Come on Gomes. They're definitely not the same. How many personal pictures do we see here of Thunderbolt soldiers with awful habits (there's one at the top of this page!).

Poor trigger discipline, muzzle flagging, pointing the weapon in jest, one handed firing, and firing while the stock is still folded are not indicative of comprehensive small arms training. Resulting in poor safety practices and marksmanship. All these things would have been ironed out to hell if basic was any good.

The way I see it these are the problems;

• Conscription - 2 to 3 year service hinders the amount of time that can be spent in training and also stops the accumulation of experience in the organisation as conscripts are discharged. NCOs are often very very green as a result and the CoC is filled with people that have limited operational experience.
• Basic Training - Egyptian education institutions lack the requisite knowledge to train competent infantrymen. That includes poor skill at arms training and very little time on any type of range or in the field.
• Selection - Officer selection is three months and includes relevant tasks such as patrolling, navigation, and planning. Conscripts do three weeks (!) mostly involving the physical pass/fail phase and traditional martial arts. The showmanship we see on parades is what they essentially learn for those weeks.
• Continuation - There is very little continuation training other than specialisation (eg anti tank or machine gunner) based on where the conscript is posted.
• Roles - They share many of the same roles as the Paratroopers (who have bigger problems) including air assault. However the Paras have cornered anything that includes jumping to their own and the Thunderbolt's detriment. Rather than Airborne infantry they want to be SOF!

Compare that to a US Ranger who goes through Basic Combat Training (9 weeks - 2 months 1 week - 63 days), Basic Airborne Course (3 weeks - 21 days), Ranger Assessment and Selection Program RASP (8 weeks - 2 months - 61 days), and then continuation at Battalion.

The total is around six months (around the same time it takes to train a British infantryman) but the substance is based on the experience of continuous operation since WWII that focuses on patrols, marksmanship, and planning.

Granted they go through weapons firing and target obstacle courses but these guys in the Saaqa must be doing something similar,

They're only starting to introduce individual and section battle skill ranges to regular soldiers. Doubt it has made its way to training. Either way they won't fire more than a couple dozen rounds in Basic and selection.

10 years ago..

Nothing to do with the Thunderbolt. The Special Forces and Reconnaissance Course is a selection program for...Special Forces.

In 17 years it has only had 8 classes producing near a dozen operators each time. The route to SF is actually far easier than most believe and isn't as comprehensive as our imitation of the US BUD/SEAL course.

 

[Human One]

It is the Mig-35..according to the most recent announcement of the Mig corporation general manager:" Egypt is the only operator of the Mig-35 outside of Russia" ..

"Speaking through an interpreter, he added that the MiG-35’s range, greater weapons load and reduced radar signature make it ideal for Middle Eastern countries. The aircraft is a development of the MiG-29 and, outside Russia, has so far won orders from Egypt"

There was an AESA radar on the first demonstrator, but was not satisfactory, work is in progress to get a satisfactory one..

Thanks. You and gomig contribute a lot. Your resources are informative.

 

[Gomig-21]

They're still two different things. Rangers are US Army Special Operations Forces while the SEALs are Navy Special Warfare/SF.

I was asking about the similarity of the Egyptian Rangers & Navy SEALs to the US ones. I'm familiar with the way the US setup is and remembered there were imitations of them in the Egyptian Army. Same exact thing, Rangers and SEALs, just wasn't sure if it's still the same or it's been dissolved or morphed into something else, hence the question. I see units now that resemble Egyptian Rangers but the Seals of old seem to have blended into another group altogether. And the what look like the Egyptian Rangers seem to be labeled Navy Special Forces which raises the question ~ what the heck happened to the SEALs?

The Egyptian Thunderbolt are organised in much the same way, with a "magmo3a" (slightly larger than a section) being the smallest formation than can be put to task instead of a platoon in line infantry.

I see. But the impression I get is the Thunderbolts are a MUCH LARGER entity than US Rangers or Navy SEALs. Either that or I'm misunderstanding you.

Come on Gomes. They're definitely not the same. How many personal pictures do we see here of Thunderbolt soldiers with awful habits (there's one at the top of this page!).

lol, I know. I was referring to the basic training comparison, not the ensuing disciplinary results of which we see that seem to be quite careless in many aspects. If you remember, I was one of the first to put up the picture of Egyptian SWATT (or whatever the heck those guys are called, all in black) with their MP-3s and the one guy flagging the instructor. I couldn't believe the lack of safety protocol in an elite SF unit. But in fairness too, you don't see it often with those guys and in reality, you see quite the opposite and some pretty impressive and disciplined behavior, for the most part. So one bad instance doesn't necessarily ruin the whole bunch. And what bout the big man security detail on the Mistral who was smoking a cigarette? Remember that? That blew my mind with all the fuel and dangers of fires on ships and the standard rule across all navies of no smoking on decks, and on one of the biggest and most prestigious ships in the Egyptian Navy, never mind. So believe you me, I'm quite aware of the occasional carelessness and lack of discipline but not sure where it comes from. Maybe it is the quality of the basic training and continuation training. But if you look at the US Marines, for example, when they pop out of basic training, you never see any of this type of carelessness as they put a huge emphasis of safety and protocol the essence of being a soldier and the cadets learn very well. It's all in the quality of the teaching and ensuing enforcing of those disciplines.

Speaking of the pic you were referring to, I was waiting for someone to pick up on the bad trigger discipline of that guy holding the black ARX. Not just that, but I'll get to the uniform part later. Something tells me you have a major issue with that too.

• Conscription - 2 to 3 year service hinders the amount of time that can be spent in training and also stops the accumulation of experience in the organisation as conscripts are discharged. NCOs are often very very green as a result and the CoC is filled with people that have limited operational experience.
• Basic Training - Egyptian education institutions lack the requisite knowledge to train competent infantrymen. That includes poor skill at arms training and very little time on any type of range or in the field.
• Selection - Officer selection is three months and includes relevant tasks such as patrolling, navigation, and planning. Conscripts do three weeks (!) mostly involving the physical pass/fail phase and traditional martial arts. The showmanship we see on parades is what they essentially learn for those weeks.
• Continuation - There is very little continuation training other than specialisation (eg anti tank or machine gunner) based on where the conscript is posted.
• Roles - They share many of the same roles as the Paratroopers (who have bigger problems) including air assault. However the Paras have cornered anything that includes jumping to their own and the Thunderbolt's detriment. Rather than Airborne infantry they want to be SOF!

Compare that to a US Ranger who goes through Basic Combat Training (9 weeks - 2 months 1 week - 63 days), Basic Airborne Course (3 weeks - 21 days), Ranger Assessment and Selection Program RASP (8 weeks - 2 months - 61 days), and then continuation at Battalion.

The total is around six months (around the same time it takes to train a British infantryman) but the substance is based on the experience of continuous operation since WWII that focuses on patrols, marksmanship, and planning.

Yep, big difference. It sounds like there is a major problem with the duration & quality of what's being taught during basic training AND in the continuation training that doesn't keep sharpening the basic skills like shooting range practices and fitness training aside from their eventual assigned battalion or specialized units & duties. Those clear and obvious problems, if they figured out a way to improve those, we'd see completely different results.

The other thing I've noticed is the occasional lack of discipline in the uniform dress code. For the most part you'll see them in complete uniform and well tidied up but then suddenly you'll see a knucklehead in sneakers with the rest of the camo uni, or in slippers even! Or camo pants and a T-shirt or one of a crew wearing a galabeyya and there is an issue with that too, because it goes back to the lack of discipline that isn't instilled correctly so it sticks, and there's no follow-through to maintain that discipline.

They're only starting to introduce individual and section battle skill ranges to regular soldiers. Doubt it has made its way to training. Either way they won't fire more than a couple dozen rounds in Basic and selection.

And the really bizarre part to that is look at all the rifles they have! Forget about the ARX or any of the other fancy rifles, just with the sheer volume of AKs in circulation; let each guy fire 300 rounds at least! 10 30-round clips each I really don't think it's a huge deal. Why they limit the shooting with all the weapons in the Egyptian Armed Forces doesn't make sense, because it's not an amo problem either.

It would be really good to identify all the different units with pictures. Maybe we'll make that a future post.

 

[Gomig-21]

Any Egyptian members or others ever see the Chinook actually land in the water like it's designed to do?
This is the closest I've seen it come to that in these recent Aqaba 3 exercises.

The Iranian Chinook floating, and floating pretty deep!

US Marines do it quite frequently.

EAF Chinook.

 

[HAIDER]

Egyptian upgraded Mig

 

[Gomig-21]

Egyptian upgraded Mig

Hopefully someday soon we'll see all 4 pylons on each wing fully loaded with missiles.

 

[The SC]

Hopefully someday soon we'll see all 4 pylons on each wing fully loaded with missiles.

That goes without saying..

 

[Gomig-21]

New batch of 3 Rafales leaving La France and headed to Egypt 3 days ago on Nov. 28th. Brings the number up yo 14 I believe.

 

[Frogman]

what the heck happened to the SEALs?

We never had any. The Special Forces and Reconnaissance Course is only a training cycle for entry into SF units (some successful candidates were even RTUd) meaning that while some soldiers qualified as SEALs we've never had a SEAL Team.

In 17 years there have only been 8 classes.

I see. But the impression I get is the Thunderbolts are a MUCH LARGER entity than US Rangers or Navy SEALs. Either that or I'm misunderstanding you.

Several battalions larger but you also have to take into account they support the Paratroopers (who are actually quite small) and the Navy for amphibious ops.

It's all in the quality of the teaching and ensuing enforcing of those disciplines.

If you don't have any military background whatsoever you can only imitate what you are taught. Fact is it's not just soldiers with bad habits. Their instructors and superiors do too.

Which comes to the next part about dress discipline. It should be up to basic training to teach the value of camouflage, personal clothing systems, and personal protective equipment.

It should be up to instructors to teach recruits how and when to use said equipment and systems while punishing - and explaining why - deviation.

It's up to NCOs at battalion or on ops to continue to enforce dress and equipment discipline. But since the NCOs make the very same mistakes as private soldiers in that area we can tell that both basic and instructor courses are flawed.

Officers do the exact same thing. So how can an NCO discipline a soldier for something his superior does?

It's a cluster but that's what happens in conscript forces. Inexperienced NCO corps are not great at enforcing discipline or instructing soldiers.

And the really bizarre part to that is look at all the rifles they have!

All those rifles officers and NCOs have

When is the last time you saw an entire platoon or even a section completely kitted out with ARX or SiGs?

The logistical idiocy of that aside and to your point about rounds fired. When was the last time you saw any consideration given to marksmanship in Egypt? Aside from Special Forces no one really seems to care if anyone can actually soldier. They need to put feet in boots and send to battalions as soon as possible. We've always been about the numbers.

Any Egyptian members or others ever see the Chinook actually land in the water like it's designed to do?
This is the closest I've seen it come to that in these recent Aqaba 3 exercises.

There's a picture buried in this thread somewhere of a close up. But yeah they do it often enough.

 

[Gomig-21]

Diffusing an IED, Egyptian Sa'aka style!

 

[The SC]

The Egyptian Air Force receives the fifth batch of the 4++ generation fighter Dassault Rafale

The new batch consists of 3 single-seat fighter (EM) with number EM06 /07/08

 

[Gomig-21]

Egyptian army M-60A3 defending a military checkpoint from a cockroach attack.

Egyptian-built Fahd-280 IFV version during the joint Egyptian/Jordanian military drills "AlAqaba-3" - armed with 2A42 30mm cannon & FN MAG machine gun & 9M113 Konkurs launcher.

There's a picture buried in this thread somewhere of a close up. But yeah they do it often enough.

Haven't seen it. Please post it if you have it, or anyone else. It would be nice to see it.

 

[Gomig-21]

I count 13 F-16.

375 gallon F-16 fuel drop tank on its way to being mounted at an Egyptian air force base. Crew looks American.

EAF F-16 block 40 carrying what looks like a LANTIRN pod and 2 Mk-82 bombs.

Blk. 52 & Apache.

Cretin Crusher!

 

[Amun]

Haven't seen it. Please post it if you have it, or anyone else. It would be nice to see it.

This is the only pic I can get from the video of Elaqabaa 3 excercise.

 

[Gomig-21]

This is the only pic I can get from the video of Elaqabaa 3 excercise.

Thank you, man. Yep, the same one I posted but bigger. I've never seen the Egyptian Chinook landing in water. I think @Frogman is full of it. No such pic exists.