Egyptian Armed Forces

[Gomig-21]

Ok, so no one knows how many of the MiG-35 2-seaters have been delivered to date, that's ok, but it brings up the other point which is who is the mystery ME country that has apparently just signed a deal with Russia to be the 3rd recipient of the Su-35....? And it's not confirmed to be Algeria, either.

 

[drgoldberg]

Ok, so no one knows how many of the MiG-35 2-seaters have been delivered to date, that's ok, but it brings up the other point which is who is the mystery ME country that has apparently just signed a deal with Russia to be the 3rd recipient of the Su-35....? And it's not confirmed to be Algeria, either.

Algeria for sure..the suffix DZ means to DZAIR aka Algeria,

the next question should be can we afford to manage SU 35 if we bought it with MIG 29 ,rafale and F 16 that;s sound crazy for the maintenance team ,spare parts different schools and even Data link ,eastern awacs !!

 

[Harpcore_lover]

Ok, so no one knows how many of the MiG-35 2-seaters have been delivered to date, that's ok, but it brings up the other point which is who is the mystery ME country that has apparently just signed a deal with Russia to be the 3rd recipient of the Su-35....? And it's not confirmed to be Algeria, either.

If not Algeria then it could be UAE

 

[Gomig-21]

Algeria for sure..the suffix DZ means to DZAIR aka Algeria,

Where did you see DZ?

the next question should be can we afford to manage SU 35 if we bought it with MIG 29 ,rafale and F 16 that;s sound crazy for the maintenance team ,spare parts different schools and even Data link ,eastern awacs !!

Yes, absolutely. I know the prevailing sentiment is that everything should be western equipment and I used to be supportive of that rule, but Egypt is in a difficult position that wouldn't allow it to maximize its equipment's potential by sticking to only western-built aircraft, so it has to find other ways to improve and strengthen its capabilities and the only way to do that at the present and in the foreseeable future is go with the best that the Russians have and find ways to integrate them with existing equipment.

It's pretty simple at this point. No more neutered F-16s because that makes absolutely no sense. So what else is out there? The Rafale, Typhoon, Gripen or MiG-35/Su-35. There will be at least 36 Rafales (possibly 48) and we know the problem with the SCALP which looks like it will eventually be rectified by the French but then that makes one doubt the possibility of the Meteor being acquired. So now you have 150+/- F-16s with only the AIM-7 Sparrow which makes them really only relegated to ground attack. That means you need to strengthen your A2A capabilities and if there's a possibility that you won't be able to arm your 36 Rafales with the meteor, then why buy any more of them? Doesn't make sense. So you look elsewhere. The MiG-35 is an excellent solution to modernize your older fleet of patrol duty and defensive interception aircraft but they lack long range loitering capability and that's where the Su-35 comes in. A good couple of squadrons can patrol and defend the entire country with very potent BVR capabilities. And if you think about it, most of the radars and satellite equipment that Egypt is operating is Russian-built. The only sticking point is the E-2C Hawkeyes but there are plenty ways to work within that data link. And many of the F-16s will be on their way out within 10 years or less and you can't wait until then to decide how to replace them.

As far as maintenance, spare parts or training, there is no difference than if they were western aircraft because either way you'll have to train more personnel in both fields anyway because you have more aircraft, and Russian spare parts are not an issue so the only issue is that it's Russian and not US or French. So I would say that's the best way to go considering there aren't any other realistic choices.

And apparently there is also the rumor that the Orion-E UAV is in the picture as well, although I'm not sure what the attraction to this would be considering the success and capabilities of the WingLoong in the EAF. This might have something to do with the the possibility of an easier integration and linkage to Russian systems already being operated in Egypt.

According to Russian sources, Bendett said, “the two countries most likely to acquire [the Orion] are Syria and Egypt. Syria and Russia already enjoy a very close mil-to-mil relationship, while Egypt is diversifying its military imports from reliance on U.S. and occasional Chinese technologies.”

https://www.defensenews.com/unmanne...+DFN&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com

 

[The SC]

Anyone know how many of the 4 Ds have been delivered yet?

We've heard 15 a while back.. most likely a bit more by now..delivery ends in 2020..

 

[The SC]

Where did you see DZ?



Yes, absolutely. I know the prevailing sentiment is that everything should be western equipment and I used to be supportive of that rule, but Egypt is in a difficult position that wouldn't allow it to maximize its equipment's potential by sticking to only western-built aircraft, so it has to find other ways to improve and strengthen its capabilities and the only way to do that at the present and in the foreseeable future is go with the best that the Russians have and find ways to integrate them with existing equipment.

It's pretty simple at this point. No more neutered F-16s because that makes absolutely no sense. So what else is out there? The Rafale, Typhoon, Gripen or MiG-35/Su-35. There will be at least 36 Rafales (possibly 48) and we know the problem with the SCALP which looks like it will eventually be rectified by the French but then that makes one doubt the possibility of the Meteor being acquired. So now you have 150+/- F-16s with only the AIM-7 Sparrow which makes them really only relegated to ground attack. That means you need to strengthen your A2A capabilities and if there's a possibility that you won't be able to arm your 36 Rafales with the meteor, then why buy any more of them? Doesn't make sense. So you look elsewhere. The MiG-35 is an excellent solution to modernize your older fleet of patrol duty and defensive interception aircraft but they lack long range loitering capability and that's where the Su-35 comes in. A good couple of squadrons can patrol and defend the entire country with very potent BVR capabilities. And if you think about it, most of the radars and satellite equipment that Egypt is operating is Russian-built. The only sticking point is the E-2C Hawkeyes but there are plenty ways to work within that data link. And many of the F-16s will be on their way out within 10 years or less and you can't wait until then to decide how to replace them.

As far as maintenance, spare parts or training, there is no difference than if they were western aircraft because either way you'll have to train more personnel in both fields anyway because you have more aircraft, and Russian spare parts are not an issue so the only issue is that it's Russian and not US or French. So I would say that's the best way to go considering there aren't any other realistic choices.

And apparently there is also the rumor that the Orion-E UAV is in the picture as well, although I'm not sure what the attraction to this would be considering the success and capabilities of the WingLoong in the EAF. This might have something to do with the the possibility of an easier integration and linkage to Russian systems already being operated in Egypt.

According to Russian sources, Bendett said, “the two countries most likely to acquire [the Orion] are Syria and Egypt. Syria and Russia already enjoy a very close mil-to-mil relationship, while Egypt is diversifying its military imports from reliance on U.S. and occasional Chinese technologies.”

https://www.defensenews.com/unmanne...+DFN&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com

This is the main source ..and it does not say DZ
http://www.interfax.ru/russia/625999

Here are the other sources that say DZ (but thhey are shaky!)
https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/111103
https://www.menadefense.net/algerie/lalgerie-commande-des-su35/
Algeria was negotiating for it for a long time along with the SU-34 a.k.a 32 for export, but the latter was not accepted by algeria, since it is under equipped.. Apparently this deal of 18 SU-35 is to replace the aging Mig-25 interceptors! for the Air defence command (CFDAT)..and it is not the one that the Algerian airforce is still negotiating for..See how shaky it looks.. why not the MIG-31s!?

Egypt is going to get the SU-XX..it is just a matter of time..it was annouced on the official state television a while back..
https://goo.gl/pxZX5Z

My first thoiught was Egypt, because of the timing with the presence of Egypt's defence minister in Russia a few days before this announcement.. after that it was the UAE and even Sudan....there are also other countries negotiating for the same fighter plane, like Venerzuella and Vietnam among others.. but this habit of not announcing the name goes mostly for Egypt and..Algeria..
https://goo.gl/pxZX5Z

 

[Gomig-21]

This is the main source ..and it does not say DZ
http://www.interfax.ru/russia/625999

Here are the other sources that say DZ (but thhey are shaky!)
https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/111103
https://www.menadefense.net/algerie/lalgerie-commande-des-su35/
Algeria was negotiating for it for a long time along with the SU-34 a.k.a 32 for export, but the latter was not accepted by algeria, since it is under equipped.. Apparently this deal of 18 SU-35 is to replace the aging Mig-25 interceptors! for the Air defence command (CFDAT)..and it is not the one that the Algerian airforce is still negotiating for..See how shaky it looks.. why not the MIG-31s!?

18 aircraft is pretty good. I don't think the MiG-31 is manufactured anymore, bro. Only the available platforms that the VVS flies that they keep modernizing to carry newer weapons like that behemoth Kinzhal.

My first thoiught was Egypt, because of the timing with the presence of Egypt's defence minister in Russia a few days before this announcement.. after that it was the UAE and even Sudan....there are also other countries negotiating for the same fighter plane, like Venerzuella and Vietnam among others.. but this habit of not announcing the name goes mostly for Egypt and..Algeria..
https://goo.gl/pxZX5Z

It really sucks that they have this terrible habit of being so secretive about their deals. I don't know if it's because of sanctions on Russia or because these ME buyers prefer it that way or a combination of both, it's still infuriating. But when they say "for contractual reasons," that doesn't sound too good. That usually means that the contract is not definitive and details still need to be worked out. Reminds me of that alleged Su-34 deal. Same shenanigans with that one and it never materialized.

 

[HannibalBarca]

18 aircraft is pretty good. I don't think the MiG-31 is manufactured anymore, bro. Only the available platforms that the VVS flies that they keep modernizing to carry newer weapons like that behemoth Kinzhal.



It really sucks that they have this terrible habit of being so secretive about their deals. I don't know if it's because of sanctions on Russia or because these ME buyers prefer it that way or a combination of both, it's still infuriating. But when they say "for contractual reasons," that doesn't sound too good. That usually means that the contract is not definitive and details still need to be worked out. Reminds me of that alleged Su-34 deal. Same shenanigans with that one and it never materialized.

I hope it's not Egypt, I prefer them to put more money on Rafale( if they really need to put that money in the Air Force) and limit their "Catalogue"...

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

I hope it's not Egypt, I prefer them to put more money on Rafale( if they really need to put that money in the Air Force) and limit their "Catalogue"...

France is too cahoots with America these days. France is not Germany. Germany is totally sovereign. I think Egypt should buy more MiG-35 and replace F-16 completely.

 

[Gomig-21]

I hope it's not Egypt, I prefer them to put more money on Rafale( if they really need to put that money in the Air Force) and limit their "Catalogue"...

Yeah, me too. Rafale is an extraordinary jet no doubt about it. The problem is we need at least 60 - 80 platforms in order to have a viable defensive air to air capability since our F-16s are neutered in that respect but I don't see us being able to purchase that many from La France. Heck our MiG-35s are a better A2A threat than our F-16s but more importantly, we need to put an end to, or circumvent, any more restrictions on weapons. We are so done with that and never want to be told "this weapon is not available to you." And so far that has been the case with the Rafale until we ran into the SCALP problem. Now no one knows what will happen when the Meteor is available. Is the US going to ITAR it to Egypt? While Qatar is allowed to purchase a HUUUUGEAH batch of them and we won't be able to because we are bad people? We can't have that anymore and the only way around that in the current dynamics of weapon's purchases is to go with the Russians and the Su-35 is the best platform they offer ATM and it carries an exorbitant amount of ridiculously powerful weaponry, especially A2A.

I also find it fascinating that the Rafale even has a slightly larger range than the Su-35. Its service ceiling is lower but that's not as important as range and that, along with a very strong BVR threat is what we need and need in large numbers.

 

[HannibalBarca]

Yeah, me too. Rafale is an extraordinary jet no doubt about it. The problem is we need at least 60 - 80 platforms in order to have a viable defensive air to air capability since our F-16s are neutered in that respect but I don't see us being able to purchase that many from La France. Heck our MiG-35s are a better A2A threat than our F-16s but more importantly, we need to put an end to, or circumvent, any more restrictions on weapons. We are so done with that and never want to be told "this weapon is not available to you." And so far that has been the case with the Rafale until we ran into the SCALP problem. Now no one knows what will happen when the Meteor is available. Is the US going to ITAR it to Egypt? While Qatar is allowed to purchase a HUUUUGEAH batch of them and we won't be able to because we are bad people? We can't have that anymore and the only way around that in the current dynamics of weapon's purchases is to go with the Russians and the Su-35 is the best platform they offer ATM and it carries an exorbitant amount of ridiculously powerful weaponry, especially A2A.

I also find it fascinating that the Rafale even has a slightly larger range than the Su-35. Its service ceiling is lower but that's not as important as range and that, along with a very strong BVR threat is what we need and need in large numbers.

I understand the concern of restriction, but the multi"source" procurement is a myth... Such thing doesn't give you 100% access / possibility to an equal equipment from the other guy.
In case of War/Conflict , Those Sellers are not bound to "give" strategic weapons...
If per exemple EGY goes to war with X and the US say "No more weapon for you"... that doesn't mean RU gonna say "Hey boys, her some strategic weapons"...

That myth ended with the cold war, when the world was Equally shared by proportional power, nowadays RU is nothing compared to The Soviets... The Only thing Ru hope on is that the US don't go against them on "the field"... And when the US don't follow that rule...They can't do anything, aka Syria...

In the End, the best way to have what you seek in "troubled times" it to make it yourself, But as of Today, the second option is to stake them in case of...

That the main critics that I have on EGY procurement... too many sources doesn't make you safe from not having any...

The Air force is not the only branch with such problem , and Even the MIG (and then T90) procurement, I'm not for it...Not because it isn't a good fighter, but it is a pain for many reasons and could open the path for more "Different sources" procurement of other types...

And that is only of the "logistical/ideological" side... Not even speaking about the Political one...Where both dealers will keep the Fire alive and fuel their "sells"...

Anyway. The only thing I can say, is Good Luck.

 

[Harpcore_lover]

Yeah, me too. Rafale is an extraordinary jet no doubt about it. The problem is we need at least 60 - 80 platforms in order to have a viable defensive air to air capability since our F-16s are neutered in that respect but I don't see us being able to purchase that many from La France. Heck our MiG-35s are a better A2A threat than our F-16s but more importantly, we need to put an end to, or circumvent, any more restrictions on weapons. We are so done with that and never want to be told "this weapon is not available to you." And so far that has been the case with the Rafale until we ran into the SCALP problem. Now no one knows what will happen when the Meteor is available. Is the US going to ITAR it to Egypt? While Qatar is allowed to purchase a HUUUUGEAH batch of them and we won't be able to because we are bad people? We can't have that anymore and the only way around that in the current dynamics of weapon's purchases is to go with the Russians and the Su-35 is the best platform they offer ATM and it carries an exorbitant amount of ridiculously powerful weaponry, especially A2A.

I also find it fascinating that the Rafale even has a slightly larger range than the Su-35. Its service ceiling is lower but that's not as important as range and that, along with a very strong BVR threat is what we need and need in large numbers.

The way home see it is, f-16s A2A capabilities aren't that bad, if you have an AWAC they are pretty mich competent but I believe that whatsw gonna happen is, the number of f-16s will drop to 150s, more purchases of other jets will be some what slowed till we see what's the US is gonna do about these f-16s. By slowed I mean no more numbers will be bought after these Su-35s assuming that we got them

 

[Harpcore_lover]

The way home see it is, f-16s A2A capabilities aren't that bad, if you have an AWAC they are pretty mich competent but I believe that whatsw gonna happen is, the number of f-16s will drop to 150s, more purchases of other jets will be some what slowed till we see what's the US is gonna do about these f-16s. By slowed I mean no more numbers will be bought after these Su-35s assuming that we got them

The way how I see it**

 

[Gomig-21]

I understand the concern of restriction, but the multi"source" procurement is a myth... Such thing doesn't give you 100% access / possibility to an equal equipment from the other guy.
In case of War/Conflict , Those Sellers are not bound to "give" strategic weapons...
If per exemple EGY goes to war with X and the US say "No more weapon for you"... that doesn't mean RU gonna say "Hey boys, her some strategic weapons"...

That myth ended with the cold war, when the world was Equally shared by proportional power, nowadays RU is nothing compared to The Soviets... The Only thing Ru hope on is that the US don't go against them on "the field"... And when the US don't follow that rule...They can't do anything, aka Syria...

It's not even "equal from the other guy," we're talking much better equipment overall, not just weaponry. If you gave someone a choice between a brand new F-16 without any AMRAAMs or JDAMs, just short range missiles and a relatively outdated medium range missile and 1 type of laser guided bomb..... and a brand new Su-35 with R-73, R-77, even the R-27 which might rival the new R-77-V-1 and a choice between 10 different laser, TV and GPS guided bombs and 7 different anti-ship cruise missiles, not to mention twin engines, which one would the majority of people choose? I don't think there would be any hesitation.

The cold war of the 50's - 80's might be over, and globalization has certainly brought east and west together in a much tighter way, but the defense industry is still moving in the same economical direction that it did during the CW and even more. The US and Russia are not buddy-buddy, there is still a lot of tension between the two -- maybe not on a nuclear level but --- which include serious issues with NATO, Crimea, Lithuania, the Baltics, the Northers Sea, election interference, spying, heavy sanctions put on Russia that are driving a lot of the outside deals especially defense related ones and not even mentioning the hotbed that is the Middle East and Russia's intention to re-position itself on a much heavier heel. Things have changed, yes, but they're still the same in many ways.

If you think about it, who would've thunk that in the past 5 years Egypt would buy all these weapons from Russia that it already did? How many decades that there was nothing and then suddenly BANG. A deal to take 2 LHD's off of Russia's hands because of sanctions from the US. Attack helicopters by the 50's. MiG-35's by the 50's. Satellites, surveillance radars, S-300's, TOR/BUKs T-90s etc. This is even bigger than pre-1973. So the notion that this is a different Russia or different times is really not. It's quite the same and maybe even more if you include other economical endeavors such as the nuclear plants and other things. As a matter of fact, this is a better situation for Russia/Egypt relations because the majority of weapons purchased pre-1973 were credited and that credit was a burden on Russia that ended up needing to be partially forgiven. Now it's an economic plus because of our much better purchase power.

In the End, the best way to have what you seek in "troubled times" it to make it yourself, But as of Today, the second option is to stake them in case of...

Well, we don't have a system that allows that to happen. That's the sad truth and reality. The military doesn't outsource to smart and capable companies with abilities to develop home-grown weaponry because the system is blocked. It's stuffed with paranoia and obsessive compulsive fear of any organization outside the military family, so it prefers the purchase route and it has enhanced its purchase power to the largest and strongest that it's ever been, and it should take advantage of that to fix that restriction that has been unfairly placed on it. Thank goodness for the French who opened the door for us and wasn't influenced by the old stigma that Egypt is a bad and unstable country and a threat to Israel. They actually opened the door for us and now we need to run through that door, not just take a peek at what's inside.

The way home see it is, f-16s A2A capabilities aren't that bad, if you have an AWAC they are pretty mich competent but I believe that whatsw gonna happen is, the number of f-16s will drop to 150s, more purchases of other jets will be some what slowed till we see what's the US is gonna do about these f-16s. By slowed I mean no more numbers will be bought after these Su-35s assuming that we got them

If I was to put a number on the EAF's F-16's capabilities, I would put it at no higher than 60%. They lack quite a bit of their full potential which is a shame and a disaster. When we were getting them, there wasn't much choice at the time and it made sense. We had to accept the conditions that essentially crippled those jets. Now we don't.

 

[HannibalBarca]

It's not even "equal from the other guy," we're talking much better equipment overall, not just weaponry. If you gave someone a choice between a brand new F-16 without any AMRAAMs or JDAMs, just short range missiles and a relatively outdated medium range missile and 1 type of laser guided bomb..... and a brand new Su-35 with R-73, R-77, even the R-27 which might rival the new R-77-V-1 and a choice between 10 different laser, TV and GPS guided bombs and 7 different anti-ship cruise missiles, not to mention twin engines, which one would the majority of people choose? I don't think there would be any hesitation.

The cold war of the 50's - 80's might be over, and globalization has certainly brought east and west together in a much tighter way, but the defense industry is still moving in the same economical direction that it did during the CW and even more. The US and Russia are not buddy-buddy, there is still a lot of tension between the two -- maybe not on a nuclear level but --- which include serious issues with NATO, Crimea, Lithuania, the Baltics, the Northers Sea, election interference, spying, heavy sanctions put on Russia that are driving a lot of the outside deals especially defense related ones and not even mentioning the hotbed that is the Middle East and Russia's intention to re-position itself on a much heavier heel. Things have changed, yes, but they're still the same in many ways.

If you think about it, who would've thunk that in the past 5 years Egypt would buy all these weapons from Russia that it already did? How many decades that there was nothing and then suddenly BANG. A deal to take 2 LHD's off of Russia's hands because of sanctions from the US. Attack helicopters by the 50's. MiG-35's by the 50's. Satellites, surveillance radars, S-300's, TOR/BUKs T-90s etc. This is even bigger than pre-1973. So the notion that this is a different Russia or different times is really not. It's quite the same and maybe even more if you include other economical endeavors such as the nuclear plants and other things. As a matter of fact, this is a better situation for Russia/Egypt relations because the majority of weapons purchased pre-1973 were credited and that credit was a burden on Russia that ended up needing to be partially forgiven. Now it's an economic plus because of our much better purchase power.



Well, we don't have a system that allows that to happen. That's the sad truth and reality. The military doesn't outsource to smart and capable companies with abilities to develop home-grown weaponry because the system is blocked. It's stuffed with paranoia and obsessive compulsive fear of any organization outside the military family, so it prefers the purchase route and it has enhanced its purchase power to the largest and strongest that it's ever been, and it should take advantage of that to fix that restriction that has been unfairly placed on it. Thank goodness for the French who opened the door for us and wasn't influenced by the old stigma that Egypt is a bad and unstable country and a threat to Israel. They actually opened the door for us and now we need to run through that door, not just take a peek at what's inside.

The thing I'm afraid, will be EGY mistake as half a decade ago... Buying What she can, from every side. That's the only thing That I don't want to see... And making it prone to instability and Dependency in the future.

And yes, EGY unwillingness to Invest heavily on her Indigenization is a shame. There is great minds/Potential and eVen Money for it... But what can you do, only Hoping the Next Guy is better.

As for France, It's also a bit infuriating to get away from such opportunity of equipments... They are willing to sell What the US and RU won't or don't have...

The Hope That I still have is from Local Rivals, as Turkey, Maybe if TR take more place in the Region and that EGY feel even more and more threatened, Then maybe a new Ideology in Def Industry may wake up.
At least That's how it worked centuries ago... And as things are nowadays, let's say the "Mentality" didn't really change...