Egypt mulls JF-17 co-production

[shanixee]

In 1965 was Egypt was the only muslim country that supported India in the war against Pakistan..the reason is simple our poor foreign policy and egypts national interest linked with India...

but now we hve got an oppertunity to increase our influence...i have read people commenting that we should nt give R&D to egypt and things like that because we have invested and should not let other eat fruit of our hard work and money....1st providing assemby line facily does not mean we are giving them R&D....2nd by providing this facility our imagine in muslim world will grow although our army has a very good reputation in muslim world but this will increase our influence more...so we should think more then money we have invested in JF17 cause this is also an investment....3rd we hve not build a 5th generation aircraft that we feel hasitent that some 1 will steel the technology....last india might infuence egypt not to buy aircraft from Pakistan because oof our poor foreign policy and india's strong foreign policy but dont forget china is also in the game how's foreign policy and influence is much stronger then india...so when china put its weight india will be short....and china also wants to cut US interest which is giving F16 but with strings....so see in much broader picture...

 

[pakpower]

That's a great news for all of us, but I have a question in mind which would be too early to ask but still I want to ask, and the question is if this goes through what kind of avionics JF-17 will have in it chinnese or the western avionics in it does anyone have any idea or rough guess about it?.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

No , egyptians are not reliable

simple as that -

The should just get whole plane assembled ! - they have not done us any favours and we should not sell our plane for them to assemble

No

Tomorrow egyptians will have joint training with Indian fighters etc , Egypt cannot be trusted -

Very simple

They get 10 planes / year delivred just like we get ours every year assembled and made in pakistan

If they want TOT they should get what is that Rafael ? or something that sells fro 80 million a pieace?

If they purchase 200-300 planes even then unless egypt has some sort of special treaty with Pakistan no point of giving out 4-4.5 generation plane just like this ...

Look how hard we have to work to get our F16 C/D? 3-4 years wait and all assembled

You want planes , great we hire ppl in Pakistan create jobs and then you get your plane

When joint defence budget exceeds 5-10 billion purchases then I can understand such cooperation has production of JF17 thunder in Egypt - otherwise no need

 

[truepakistani17]

Hi,

When it is your turn, you want to get everything from usa, france, germany, britain, sweden etc--tot tot tot---and when it comes your turn to gibve, there are issues.

Kid kids kids----pakistan desperately needs to sign one major defence deal to get the ball rolling and you people are crying murder.

Pak millitary consortium will sell its right nut if needed, they will sell their left nut as well if needed to bag this deal. This is a watershed moment for our defence industry. If we make this deal happen, all other doors will open up for our equipment.

Plus egypt is one of our very own---would you charge your brother extra for its defence equipment in times of need. Here we all are bragging of what we will do to israel and right in this very moment---the truth comes out---amazing isn't it what money can do to relations and relationships.

Egypt has restrictions on the usage of its F 16's and the missiles that came with it. Egypt has its hands tied behind its back and we want to charge them extra.

This news being in janes, is a great plus for the JF 17 and its future sale---.

rightly said sir!
infatc i was quite shocked by the posts of Sir AzadPakistani and some other members....
it is not just the dollars comming to us but as you said it is about getting the ball rolling!!!
Pakistan is not known in world for its defence exports! example that come to mind is that of Saudia that had to chosse between Abrams and AlKhalids. at that time even though AlKhalids offered the same quality for as low as three times the cosst of Abrams but still Abrams were given the advantage of the name tag ther bear! if once pakistani products are positioned in market then it would be opening of new horizons.
for me, if the deal goes along even if with only 48 planes it is a major breakthrough in defnce industry of pakistan.. perhaps even bigger then the Atomic bombs testing in May 1998!!

thanks!

 

[Adios Amigo]

No , egyptians are not reliable

simple as that -

The should just get whole plane assembled ! - they have not done us any favours and we should not sell our plane for them to assemble

No

Tomorrow egyptians will have joint training with Indian fighters etc , Egypt cannot be trusted -

Very simple

They get 10 planes / year delivred just like we get ours every year assembled and made in pakistan

If they want TOT they should get what is that Rafael ? or something that sells fro 80 million a pieace?

Put an end to your kiddish talk and step in the real world.

You talk of International relations like kids taking friends and foes in their naive games.

The fact that Egypt with an estimated order of more then 200 of these birds makes them the biggest foreign customer ( North Korea also showed interest to buy 200 and so was Iran interested initially but don't know about them now, The deal with north Korea may not materialize because of the political implications) makes them very important and only a fool rather a complete Mad, will turn down such an opportunity. Business is business, keep it away from relations and brotherhood aspect. We Pakistanis, the most emotional people in the world, would like to fight for them even if with bare hands if Israel or some one attacks them today , but when it comes to business we suck and wont capitalize on the opportunity.


Lastly the long negotiations taking place for years will ensure that no unfriendly countries get hands on them or get the critical know how about their capabilities and weaknesses.





Post edit

Do u know, whats your annual defense exports ????? hardly between 300 to 400 million dollars, If this deal goes through, which Insha Allah will, it will put you directly from millions to Billions game. So wake up.







Adios

 

[Kompromat]

"Egyptian Border: Thunders operated here enter at your own Risk !! "

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

No , any assebly lines should not be setup on forign states

a) Second Assemly line should be setup in GWADAR area
b) Local population and pakitani engineers should be hired

The second assembly facility would fullfill Egyptian orders and also
it will assit to develop planes and upgrades for forigne orders ... while
our other facility will be exclusively for local productions.
c) Egyptian engineers should be welcomed to come and get trained
on limited skills for frist few years

If the order is for 200-300 JF17 Thunders, great its a great start to cooperation between Pakistan & Egypt - it can open doors for future cooperation.

The second production facility can also be then used to upgrade planes with new features - or produce fighters for new customers like Argentina etc or Vanazuella etc

You cant just give the production facility to 3rd paty country ? like come on ...

We invested like 2-3 billion dollars with inflation in mind etc

And to offer that to Egypt who has not done any strategic cooperation with us , worth more then few million dollars all of sudden is a bit too much

Don't get me Wrong ... I love the aspect of selling the craft but I think the idea of production line moving to Egypt is a bit early, 4-5 years too early

When you have close relation like

Only after that we can consider this idea -

If they are serious about their defence they will have to buy planes anyways

But if they would like to Invest in Future plane with Pakistan/China they can be considered - this is how it should be

 

[Kompromat]

I think people need to Understand the Difference between TOT and TOPT !

I hope Sir Mastankhan needs to pop here once again .

We are giving "Just Production Technology " that they can Assemble the aircraft at home and NOT the Transfer of technology that they can Build from the scratch .

 

[truepakistani17]

i mean to say that once we have proved our metal is worth enough and have eastablished our name in market there are lot of things that can be floated in the market. pakistan is currently producing some of the worlds finest Tanks, APCs and now also entered Aircrafts!

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Oh well all the best for JF17 thunder -

200 planes would be a good customer for Pakistan/China

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Well as Mastan khan said tht el baradi and his western masters will try there best to stop the deal.I just hope and pray nothing like that happens.
Also id like mastans opinion about the statements.
Thanks

 

[Adios Amigo]

No , any assebly lines should not be setup on forign states

I am losing my patience, not because you cant understand but because you do not want to understand.

a) Second Assemly line should be setup in GWADAR area

What kind of a fizzy logic is that???? shall we laugh???

b) Local population and Pakistani engineers should be hired

Local population and engineers for what ??? are we building a god damn Hydro Power DAM, or something like that which needs intensive labor.

Aeronautical Engineering is different then the rest of forms of engineering, We only have one such institute at Risalpur, which is producing hardly enough graduates to fulfill the current needs. Forget about establishing 10 lines in different locations(not to mention the logistical night mare its gonna create), we simply cant do that.

The second assembly facility would fullfill Egyptian orders and also
it will assit to develop planes and upgrades for forigne orders ... while
our other facility will be exclusively for local productions.

why should they agree on such a lousy deal, why not to go somewhere else and have the desired assembly line with some sort of sense of ownership??? Their are plenty that would like to do that for them, Russia , France wont hesitate to get such a lucrative order.

c) Egyptian engineers should be welcomed to come and get trained
on limited skills for frist few years

really nice, they would let you play that kind of a joke with them

You cant just give the production facility to 3rd paty country ? like come on ...

We invested like 2-3 billion dollars with inflation in mind etc

And to offer that to Egypt who has not done any strategic cooperation with us , worth more then few million dollars all of sudden is a bit too much

We have invested and its time harvest, if we know how to do. the rest of the world is far ahead in the race, we must not get out the race if we cant win the gold, we should follow them at least we might win a bronze or a certificate at least.

If our providing them the line is too much then, they are planning to invest billions that's also too much.

Don't get me Wrong ... I love the aspect of selling the craft but I think the idea of production line moving to Egypt is a bit early, 4-5 years too early

When you have close relation like

Only after that we can consider this idea -

If they are serious about their defence they will have to buy planes anyways

But if they would like to Invest in Future plane with Pakistan/China they can be considered - this is how it should be

Listen nothing bad is going to happen but good if they have the production facility, i mentioned that in my earlier posts. Why is Russia providing production lines to India for its top SUs??? why is France ready to give away production facilities for Rafael to any one with money??? Even turkey is have the production line for potent F-16s for many decades now,, it doesn't mean they have stared producing their own jets and stole technology of America. A hell lot of examples are there but if you just look arround.












Adios

 

[SBD-3]

"Egyptian Border: Thunders operated here enter at your own Risk !! "

but we must also know that IdAF will be entering with F-15s and Suffas not to mention Phalcons......

 

[pkd]

This is a win-win situation for all

For Pakistan:

1. A major boost for the export of its high end products. That will also intill confidence in other defence equipment like Al-Khalid MBT.
2. Most importantly it should be seen as an opportunity to counter growing Israeli influence which is arming india to the teeth with the state of the art military eqipment. That will atleat give us some bargaining chips.
3. An opportunity for collaboration with Russians, as they will be motivated for the sale of their engines in a huge potential market.

For China
1. China a joint partner in the project will also get a major boost. The sale of prospective BVR and WVR missiles and all the paraphernalia.
2. A potential sale of chinese AWACS as JF-17 could be data linked with it in the future.
3. Will give a impetus to the the development of an indigenous engine for the future.

For Egypt
1. For egypt that will fill a huge gap for their defence needs and most importantly they will get that solution vey cheaply. Can't wait for the day when our Thunder bird equipped with SD-10 slammers will be patrolling the suez canal

 

[All-Green]

Assembly line is not a direct product of complete TOT, we shall have no issues with assembly if the deal is good and that is what shall be the most likely scenario since transfer of technology of an entire fighter jet is not a very simple matter.
Do we make RD93?
Do even the Chinese make RD93?
Yet it is a part of JF-17 for a fighter cannot fight without an engine.

When A to Z things can be made in Pakistan only then you can call it a complete TOT...however TOT can be in parts like avionics, engine, weapons etc. as different stages of TOT or different types of TOT which is more intelligent manner of doing things, it is a slow digestion of technology instead of overwhelming yourselves with too much too soon.
You pick and choose what you can do in house completely and do a TOT agreement on the feasible parts instead of making everything in house...
Cost is a major factor in these decisions, though ofcourse first you need to have enough leverage via the value of the deal or excellent relations with the original manufacturer.

This is a cost effective project (well planned and conceived till date) and will play massive dividends in many dimensions...however the supply of JF-17 to export customers is something very much planned from the start of its design and is one of the motivational factors for this program.