Egypt has placed order for Su-35s

[Philip the Arab]

That's bullshit.

58 km away but I'm unsure of the detection range of the F-35 detecting the Su-35.

 

[The SC]

58 km away but I'm unsure of the detection range of the F-35 detecting the Su-35.

These ranges can be achieved by SU-35 IRST alone in total silence mod..i.e; Radar not activated..(SU-35 passive radar range is 400km)

Interesting discussion, let compare the Capabilities of F-35 and SU-35 and then further on with legacy aircrafts (F-16, F-15, Mig-35 etc) as well as Rafale and see where the dog fight stands in middle east.

Starting with F-35 and SU-35.

The stealth Factor
F-35 is a stealth aircraft while SU-35 is not, although its RCS has been reduced considerably yet not as small as F-35, which straightaway gives edge to F-35 in detecting SU-35 before the SU-35 can detect F-35, although due to steps taken in reducing RCS of SU-35, it might get detected at a later stage than earlier calculated.

The basic stealth give-away for SU-35 is firstly its design, which is aerodynamic but not stealthy. Its engine nozzles are not as well protected to contain exhausts, and there are two of them, not even one like F-35. This gives an edge to F-35 RCS again, since the heat signature for SU-35 will be greater than F-35 during WVR combat when IR missiles come into play.

The missiles for SU-35 will be carried externally which gives no advantage in reducing RCS, where as missiles of F-35 will be carried internally, which gives an RCS advantage to F-35.

Role Playing
Lets have a look at the roles of both aircrafts. F-35 was designed as multirole fighter, not as an air superiority fighter, yet it will be tasked to carry out the role of air to air combat. SU-35 on the other hand was designed from SU-27, an air superiority fighter, which further incarnated into SU-30 Strike fighter, attaining multirole capability.

The role of F-35I could be strike missions using its stealth capability to enter EAF air space, wile SU-35's main role would probably be air dominance, while the likes of Rafale, F-16's and Mirage-2000 would fulfill the strike role. This is not necessarily true in every case since both aircrafts carry all type of weaponry. However in a scenario where IAF F-35I are encountered, EAF could launch SU-35's in response and a dog fight may ensue. IAF field a dedicated air superiority fighter, the famous F-15 in all versions, A/B/C and D, there is also E version (F-15I) used for strike role. It could be expected that F-35I will be escorted by F-15's while SU-35 will be complimented by Rafale. To maintain its stealthy profile, F-35 could also work best alone. On the other hand, IAF could use F-16 and F-15 to create a diversion and allow F-35 to strike from a different vector from a less defended air space and location.

Payload - Carrying the bite
F-35 carries Aim-120 and Aim-9x, apart from other AAM's. Two of each or a any other configuration. The best bet could be however to carry 4 long range AAM's and avoid to get close to SU-35 for WVR fights. Any load carried externally will enhance its RCS, giving away its stealthy profile by some margin. It can also carry different bombs in internal payload configuration which makes it a excellent strike fighter to penetrate enemy air defense, although it could give away its location if it starts to jam enemy radars and communications. Its external payload allows it to carry from missiles for different mission profiles.

SU-35 on the other hand has 12 (or 14) hard points for a variety of AAM's to be carried: all ranges. A variant of R-73 (R-73 MII or R-74) is almost similar to Aim-9X. The Longest range missile is R-37 which is aimed at destroying slow moving aircrafts (AWACS/Refueler etc) operating deep down inside enemy air space, up to 350+ km. The R-27 and R-77 are medium to long range, depending upon their variants (including RVV-AE). For strike role, its capable to carry different types of missiles and bombs. The purpose of this post is Air to air combat between SU-35 and F-35 so i won't go into details of strike payload.

While SU-35 may get a buddy refueling pod since SU-30 is buddy refuel capable, its not clear if F-35 will get buddy refuel capability.

Electronics/Sensors - Smelling the coffee

The avionics and sensors of F-35I can be debated since Israel is intent on using own electronic systems, but lets go with current ones. F-35 houses APG-81 AESA Radar, with E/O sensor (EOTS) on nose, used as a targeting system. The radar can track 23 targets and engage 19 of them. It can detect SU-35 at more than 150 km away. For RWR, self defense counter measures, situational awareness, surveillance and IR tracking, the F-35 carries ASQ-239 EW system, which has sensors spread throughout the body up to wing tips and tail. This supplemented by AAQ-37, DAS, which gives additional 6 sensors and counter measure system for alertness and protection. The AESA radar is inter-connected with all these systems, becoming a apart of EW system of F-35. Another capability is progress is controlling UCAV's through F-35 radar and sensory systems. HMDS is connected to everything; sensors and missiles (especially Aim-9X).

SU-35 may become capable of carrying AESA Radar in future, although it currently carries IRBIS-E PESA Radar in RuAF service. The Radar can track 30 targets and attack 8 aerial targets simultaneously. It can detect F-35 around 80-90 km away. The L-175 Khibiny electronic warfare suite is employed, with new wingtip DRFM technology jamming pods. SU-35 has OLS-35 E/O device (IRST) and its capable of carrying KNIRTI SAP-14 and SAP-518 jamming pods for EW.

Air Combat- The Real Deal

There is a huge probability that F-35 will be guiding F-16's and F-15's in combat against SU-35, Mig-35, Rafale, F-16's etc. F-35 could fire off its long range AAM's to take out as many enemy fighters as it can and either turn away or stay in the arena to give back up to F-16's and F-15's through situational awareness, especially if an AWACS is not present due to the threat of being shot down by SU-35/Rafale. Unless F-35 is carrying a HOBS Aim-9x, it would be risky to get close to SU-35. F-35 will have to trade-off between stealth or range and payload. . F-35's fuel capacity is lesser than that of SU-35. In order to stay longer in the dog fight, it will need refueling or external tanks, a problem from which SU-35 is independent. SU-35 can carry, external fuel tanks while its internal fuel capacity is decent. SU-35 could have a higher climb rate than F-35 (cant find F-35 climb rate anywhere) as well as speed and agility, its ECM suite is quite good, but none of these factors guarantee that it will be evade AMRAAM or other BVR missiles fired by F-35. Rafale could compliment SU-35 in taking on F-35, although Rafale is non-stealthy too, but it houses an AESA and a good EW suite but that doesn't give edge over F-35. Through usage of lower frequency bands or when the bays of F-35 open for a missile launch, then chances to capitalize on these opportunities could help SU-35 to detect F-35 and if it could respond by firing at same time, then SU-35 could have a chance to take down F-35. Emission of low frequencies could detect F-35 since it begins to act like an antenna, re-radiating the electromagnetic field as current it induces flows from one end (or one side) to the other, due to change of wavelength. The RAM applied to attenuate higher frequency radars isn't thick enough to effectively eliminate the current flowing in the aircraft's body and airfoils at low frequencies, so it can reflect when wave length of RF signal varies from high to low. Otherwise using method of triangulation with the help of other aircrafts and radars deployed on ground could help in tracking F-35.

F-35's stealth is the major factor which could ensure it survives the onslaught of SU-35 and Rafale, where as SU-35's maneuverability and large payload, along with use of EW sensors could help it take down F-35's.

@Khafee @Tps43

"The Su-35’s most critical improvements over its predecessors may be in hardware. It is equipped with a powerful L175M Khibiny electronic countermeasure system intended to distort radar waves and misdirect hostile missiles. This could significantly degrade attempts to target and hit the Flanker-E."

"Supplementing the radar is an OLS-35 targeting system that includes an Infra-Red Search and Track (IRST) system said to have a fifty-mile range—potentially a significant threat to stealth fighters."

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...u-35-plane-air-force-should-worry-about-32517

"Low-wave ground radars imprecise? Error box of RLM-M radar that is a component of NEBO-M tri-band radar system is about 500 meters, which is tiny given that all it needs to do is guide a missile close enough for the seeker to find and lock onto the target. There is a reason why NEBO-M radar is a powerful AESA with very advanced signal processing and LPI techniques.

Even more laughable is the claim that IRST is imprecise: given that the IRST works in 2 bands, one of which almost completely ignores clouds, claim of lack of precision is a joke.
As far as radar goes - the claim that PESA is easier to detect relies on it being unable to change frequency and timing of the radar pulses, however that is not a given: if the central transmitter is of a broad-band capability, or there are 3 or 4 that work in different frequencies and all are connected to TR modules to facilitate the frequency hop, then there is no reason why it's any more detectable than AESA. Also it's possible to play with waveform and make it LPI. Frequency hop is not the only way.
LPI =//= zero probability of intercept. Khibini is an extremely advanced EW system and isn't a given that it'll be unable to detect the F-22 and F-35.

Author didn't mention the MAWS on the Flanker, something F-22 doesn't have. Neither did he mention the fact that IRBIS radar has at least 120 degree off-boresight capability in all directions (phased steering + mechanical deflection). That means that in a dogfight the Flanker doesn't even need to go post-stall since it can lock onto the target while it's more than 90 degrees away.

(go to link)

 

[The SC]

Well, its best to be prepared always even if Egypt and Israel are at relative peace for now. I think Egypt should procure more SHOAD and HIMAD SAM systems with less of a focus on aerial war but the Su-35 is more capable against Israeli F-35s, F-15s, and F-16s than say Egyptian F-16s. I mean what other reason can you think of for Egypt buying the Su-35?

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/comm...t-complex-missile-system-in-the-world.534655/

 

[Philip the Arab]

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/comm...t-complex-missile-system-in-the-world.534655/

The thing is a lot of the missiles weaknesses are known because of the US capturing them and doing testing on them. Same goes with the S-300 after the cold war when Germany gave it to the U.S.

 

[Wasteland]

The thing is a lot of the missiles weaknesses are known because of the US capturing them and doing testing on them. Same goes with the S-300 after the cold war when Germany gave it to the U.S.

I would bet even the Russian weapon system developers themselves are willingly giving away the "secrets and weaknesses" to the US, and maybe other countries in exchange for some $$. Bet i would easily find news about such incident already if i went on a short giggly googlie rampage.

 

[The SC]

I would bet even the Russian weapon system developers themselves are willingly giving away the "secrets and weaknesses" to the US, and maybe other countries in exchange for some $$. Bet i would easily find news about such incident already if i went on a short giggly googlie rampage.

Russia proposed the S-400 to the US.. they seem to be confident about their tech "vulnerability"..

 

[The SC]

The only problem we see with the Egyptian strategy is having too many eggs and too many baskets, goodluck when the funds are tight.

How come you see it as a problem?
Doesn't wisdom say:"Never put you eggs in the same basket" ?

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

How come you see it as a problem?
Doesn't wisdom say:"Never put you eggs in the same basket" ?

It's also common sense, to not spread your self too thin, which Egypt is doing. I could careless what Egypt ends up doing in the end. I was just carious to some of the reasons to why they would do, so.

 

[The SC]

It's also common sense, to not spread your self too thin, which Egypt is doing. I could careless what Egypt ends up doing in the end. I was just carious to some of the reasons to why they would do, so.

The reason is simple enough to understand.. to thwart any kind of sanctions if the going gets tough..
As for spreading too thin.. It is obvious that you don't understand that the SU-35 is a complement to the Mig-35 (combined they make a force of 80 aircrafts) that is not thin, the same with more than 200 F-16s and 24+12 Rafale as a first batch..which is an extension of the 18 Mirage 2000 already operated in Egypt.. there is nothing stretched thin in here it is quite the contrary..

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

The reason is simple enough to understand.. to thwart any kind of sanctions if the going gets tough..
As for spreading too thin.. It is obvious that you don't understand that the SU-35 is a complement to the Mig-35 (combined they make a force of 80 aircrafts) that is not thin, the same with more than 200 F-16s and 24+12 Rafale as a first batch..which is an extension of the 18 Mirage 2000 already operated in Egypt.. there is nothing stretched thin in here it is quite the contrary..

You assumed for me that I dont understand, which on ur case was a short and sloppy conclusion. Would recommend u vist the thread where the Americans threatened Egypt on its acquisition of the jets. Have a nice day, Arab

 

[The SC]

You assumed for me that I dont understand, which on ur case was a short and sloppy conclusion. Would recommend u vist the thread where the Americans threatened Egypt on its acquisition of the jets. Have a nice day, Arab

Thanks Pakhtoon..Sorry but here again you are not showing you can make a difference between the US congress and the white house.. you can read trump's statements on tweeter.. the congress is always playing the bad cop..

 

[Beny Karachun]

How come you see it as a problem?
Doesn't wisdom say:"Never put you eggs in the same basket" ?

Having Rafales, F-16s, Su-35s and MiG 35s, is a logistical nightmare.

 

[Wilhelm II]

Having Rafales, F-16s, Su-35s and MiG 35s, is a logistical nightmare.

Egypt do this before with f4 f7 mig21. Egyptians are smart to choose weapons from all power blocks in world. When a country sale downgrade weapons wisdom say buy from another country. World market is huge

 

[Beny Karachun]

Egypt do this before with f4 f7 mig21. Egyptians are smart to choose weapons from all power blocks in world. When a country sale downgrade weapons wisdom say buy from another country. World market is huge

Still a logistical nightmare.

 

[Defense Reader]

The only problem we see with the Egyptian strategy is having too many eggs and too many baskets, goodluck when the funds are tight.

I think sir they took modi gi announcement too seriously of not having a platform like Rafale so they (Egyptian) purchasing every available platform from markeat