Earthquake Funds---F16 Money---Where Did They Go

[war&peace]

The video is based on some reality but the OP's usual ill-informed tirade is derailing the key issue. The PAF's pursuit of the F-16 was INDEPENDENT of its pursuit of the M2K.
As I have repeatedly refuted his claims of equalling the F-16 purchasing with the M2K before, the F-16 purchase was to meet the original requirement for a air superiority/multi-role aircraft laid out in the original 80's Air Staff requirement.

The M2K was borne out of the need for a deep strike asset AND WAS PURSUED IMMEDIATELY after 2001. However, the French at the time were desperate to sell the Rafale and kept insisting that Pakistan's request for only 28-36 M2K was not sufficient for them to restart the line and that we should buy the Rafale(which was much expensive) instead.
@war&peace The PAF Should not be under any COAS or undue influence of the Army because until recently the PA possessed very little knowledge of Air power as such.
The PAF needs independance just as the PN does, but what is important is need to change national character regarding corruption and nepotism; the rest will sort itself out.

I'm of the opinion that PAF could have gone for both and both could serve slightly different purposes. F16 is an excellent dog-fighter while delta-winged can be great for strikes.. F16 was the most advanced A/C of its times..the first A/C to fly-by-wire with its unstable airframe that necessitated the use of computers..none matched its manoeuvrability.

 

[SQ8]

Seriously ? A negative for this comment ? F16 is a good fighter and no one would pay if u are getting f16s for free. Its not like Pakistan has had many choices based on its financial condition in the last few decades.

Unless you are aware of how the exact finances were handled. Please refrain from making idiotic comments.
Banned from thread.

I'm of the opinion that PAF could have gone for both and both could serve slightly different purposes. F16 is an excellent dog-fighter while delta-winged can be great for strikes.. F16 was the most advanced A/C of its times..the first A/C to fly-by-wire with its unstable airframe that necessitated the use of computers..none matched its manoeuvrability.

They DID go for BOTH. Please stop listening to the repetitive tripe by the OP on the PAF choosing one for the other.
The M2K was approached in the 90's but then PPP corrupt pigs sabotaged it, then in the second attempt of the 2000's the French themselves muddled the deal.

 

[war&peace]

The M2K was borne out of the need for a deep strike asset AND WAS PURSUED IMMEDIATELY after 2001. However, the French at the time were desperate to sell the Rafale and kept insisting that Pakistan's request for only 28-36 M2K was not sufficient for them to restart the line and that we should buy the Rafale(which was much expensive) instead.

I think the Pressler amendments hit Pakistan immediately after the collapse of USSR..right so it makes around 1989-90 so PAF should have sought the alternative from Dassault then as it has been operating Mirage-III and V. Definitely restarting the assembly line in 2001 for just a squadron was not profitable enough for them to go through the troubles.. so someone messed up somewhere.. or PAF should have gone for Rafales ..it is expensive but you get a lot more capable A/C than M2K.

@war&peace The PAF Should not be under any COAS or undue influence of the Army because until recently the PA possessed very little knowledge of Air power as such.
The PAF needs independance just as the PN does, but what is important is need to change national character regarding corruption and nepotism; the rest will sort itself out.

I said so because their role is of support and most of the times, they caught lacking and unprepared for the challenge. If not subordinate, at least there should be a strong mechanism that if COAS requires airforce to respond, it has do so under the constitution and air chief should not just deny without a solid evidence and explanation.

 

[SQ8]

I think the Pressler amendments hit Pakistan immediately after the collapse of USSR..right so it makes around 1989-90 so PAF should have sought the alternative from Dassault then as it has been operating Mirage-III and V. Definitely restarting the assembly line in 2001 for just a squadron was not profitable enough for them to go through the troubles.. so someone messed up somewhere.. or PAF should have gone for Rafales ..it is expensive but you get a lot more capable A/C than M2K.


I said so because their role is of support and most of the times, they caught lacking and unprepared for the challenge. If not subordinate, at least there should be a strong mechanism that if COAS requires airforce to respond, it has do so under the constitution and air chief should not just deny without a solid evidence and explanation.

There is a strong mechanism and more than usual. The PA controls a lot of money and at times bullies the other arms into doing with little.
Forget 65 and 71 and Kargil where the Army(dictators) undertook actions without informing the other branches and then the nation suffered.
In the 80's the PAF had to explain the need for more assets to the PA by telling them they were for air support, Only then the Army agreed to it.

The damage began with mediocre dictators (superseding the racial and nepotism run drama right after the Quaid passed ) and their interference in professionalism. That damage percolated throughout the armed forces and resulted in utter ruin.

It all boils down to nepotism and corruption; remove these ills and the problems will solve.

 

[war&peace]

@MastanKhan @Oscar let the bygones be bygones (surely we should learn from the past mistakes and punish the responsible) and focus on what options we have.. JF17 block-III, Project Azm and some stop gap solution till the Project Azm comes live.
What are our choices J10C, J11, SU35, EFTs ??
J16 is not available due to Russian license issues..

 

[SQ8]

@MastanKhan @Oscar let the bygones be bygones (surely we should learn from the past mistakes and punish the responsible) and focus on what options we have.. JF17 block-III, Project Azm and some stop gap solution till the Project Azm comes live.
What are our choices J10C, J11, SU35, EFTs ??
J16 is not available due to Russian license issues..

Threads exist for that discussion. This one was based upon a video in which many factors were invovled regarding the funds. What was not involved is the flawed and baseless notion that it was F-16s or M2Ks in the years after 2001 which is the contention.

 

[war&peace]

Threads exist for that discussion. This one was based upon a video in which many factors were invovled regarding the funds. What was not involved is the flawed and baseless notion that it was F-16s or M2Ks in the years after 2001 which is the contention.

I personally think there was nothing wrong in selecting F16s .. it was the best option at that time and purchasing it shouldn't stop PAF from acquiring M2k so I agree with your opinion on that... Now we can only curse the corrupt guys of PPP but still I don't understand that under what circumstances the air chief gave away the money for the procurement of A/Cs while the world poured in USD 5 billion for the earthquake

Hang the air chief for treason and corruption.

He should be interrogated for that decision... corruption may be difficult to prove in the conventional sense... but if he was granted extensions... that's also a type of corruption and a popular option for top bureaucrats and military chief though recently it seems to change beginning with General Raheel Shareef.

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

I personally think there was nothing wrong in selecting F16s .. it was the best option at that time and purchasing it shouldn't stop PAF from acquiring M2k so I agree with your opinion on that... Now we can only curse the corrupt guys of PPP but still I don't understand that under what circumstances the air chief gave away the money for the procurement of A/Cs while the world poured in USD 5 billion for the earthquake


He should be interrogated for that decision... corruption may be difficult to prove in the conventional sense... but if he was granted extensions... that's also a type of corruption and a popular option for top bureaucrats and military chief though recently it seems to change beginning with General Raheel Shareef.

We are past the point of detention and interrogation as a nation. It's got to be done with.

 

[Trango Towers]

Another PAF bad, F-16s bad, my ideas great thread ... yawn!!

Although @MastanKhan has some very valid points in his original post it has since become a bash PAF thread. We all know the acquisitions departments of all militries are pretty corrupt and more so in the indo pak subcontinent.
Decisions have been made and we have to live by them. Some folks think they can do a better job butthe question is why arent they?

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Pakistani Judicial System has many loop holes

1- Charges are filed person is apprehended , and then released specially for major financial crimes
2- Person goes to Prison and next day they are out on National TV giving interview like nothing happened
3- The charged person can go in and out of country at will , and we are talking about Millions of Dollars in corruption

The other notable problems are the timing of the Court cases , most of these high profile cases are listened by judges who are about to retire , the case would be 37% heard when they retire and then the process restarts.

Finally we also have seen that for rich people , they create loops holes call it JIT Or what ever however these special case appointments are not for poor class citizens only rich have access to these special sessions , which ensure their is no Jail term , and even if things go wrong they can make a pledge to give up financial asset in return for freedom


Finally the , ability of criminals to escape from Pakistan is worrisome , specially in situation when they held government office and have charges of corruption against them.

• Ishaq Dar
• Haqanni

Just two recent names of people who have fled the country while holding government office

However if a poor person is charge they are locked up in jail for 2-3 years before their cases are even heard


Lets look at the story of Nawaz Sharif getting Top premium quality food Mutton , Palau and and other goodies delivered to him from his personal chef? To me that does not sound like a Prison

 

[GHALIB]

Desis will never change

 

[gangsta_rap]

The M2K was approached in the 90's but then PPP corrupt pigs sabotaged it,

Quoting this for truth. There are many other episodes that show how damaging ppp truly was. Sadly it never gets discussed because of the taboo nature of bringing anything remotely bad with respect to dukhtaran e mulk shaheed benazir bhutto

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Hang the air chief for treason and corruption.

It would not be the only Air Cheif that may require hanging.

 

[ziaulislam]

regardless neither now nor then our economy could/can afford any other source..
till we get serious on our economy front things will not look good...
biggest problem is money laundering in pakistan...
we are experts in that field..

 

[Mav3rick]

Another PAF bad, F-16s bad, my ideas great thread ... yawn!!

And I sense a highly inaccurate interpretation of the posts.

F-16 is not bad; the decision in 2005 to acquire new F-16's after learning to walk through the Pressler Amendment was bad, especially since there were French consequences to the deal. The F-16 decision in 70/80 was EXCELLENT; However, the F-16 decision in 2005 was so bad that I would equate it to treason.