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Drone Arms Race: The Great Sky Game in the Middle East

Its not an excuse but facts or common sense which of cos you refuse to admit.

Our Drone dominated Turkish drone in Libya in terms of range, payload and command and control.
A very big reason why Hatfar are attacking Tripoli LNA and not the other way round.


Your drone dominated by one fact, and it is not reliable. We saw it from Jordan to Iraq. Beside that the smaller tactical Bayraktar have more then 100000 flight hours with out problems. One is show down in Libya but the counter one is crashed and shut down over the whole world:-). You sucksss a lot....

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/chinese-killer-drones-are-falling-out-style-middle-east-72331
 
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Turkey is fighting a formidable drone war in Libya
  • Sep 14 2019 09:03 Gmt+3
  • Last Updated On: Sep 16 2019 12:44 Gmt+3
Source:https://ahvalnews.com/libya/turkey-fighting-formidable-drone-war-libya

Turkey has given decisive support to Libya’s Tripoli-based government, supplying it with armed drones that have carried out a series of air strikes on the besieging eastern forces of General Khalifa Haftar.

Turkish-made Bayraktar TB2 drones have carried out several air strikes on behalf of the Government of National Accord (GNA) and provided air support for its ground forces conducting counter-offensives, most notably helping them rout Haftar’s Libyan National Army (LNA) in the city of Gharyan in late June, which hitherto had served as a major logistical hub for the siege.

The LNA also has a fleet of Chinese-made Wing Loong II drones supplied by its main patron, the United Arab Emirates (UAE). They have attempted to destroy the GNA’s Bayraktar fleet, taking out a couple in air strikes against GNA bases.

Turkey appears to have successfully managed to replenish those losses with the most recent resupply of Bayraktars reportedly taking place in late August.

The GNA’s drones are based in Tripoli’s Mitiga International Airport and Misrata in northwestern Libya. The LNA carries out most of its air strikes from al-Jufra airbase in central Libya.

The GNA received 12 Bayraktar TB2s in two batches – four and eight – between May and July,” said Arnaud Delalande, a freelance defence and security expert.

At least half of them have been destroyed during UAE airstrikes using Wing Loong IIs,” he said. “The second batch delivered in July was to replace the losses of the first.

“It seems that a third batch was delivered in the end of August following new losses over the summer.”

Levent Özgül, a Turkish defence analyst, estimated there were “at least eight Bayraktar TB2s delivered to the GNA and based in Misrata”.

Oliver Imhof, a Libya researcher for the UK-based non-profit Airwars, which documents air strikes and casualties in the Middle East and Libya, said that “the GNA received another delivery of Turkish drones around August 27.”

“The number isn’t really clear, but given the high volume of GNA strikes at the moment it should be similar to the six to eight drones it operated before,” Imhof said.

While the number of Emirati drones operating in Libya is unclear, Imhof said both sides appeared to have similar capabilities based on the number of strikes they have carried out against each other, but the Emirati Wing Loongs had a longer range than the Bayraktars.

Delalande also pointed out that the Tripoli government is at a disadvantage compared to its adversary “because the range of the Bayraktar is only 150 km without ground relay antennas contrary to Wing Loong, which use satellites”.

The Bayraktars destroyed were all struck as they landed following their own missions,” he said.

They were probably spotted by ISR (intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance)/Wing Loongs after their air strikes.”

But, Delalande said, Turkish drones based in Misrata appeared to be under some kind of “protection bubble … No retaliation strikes were carried out by UAE drones despite Turkish drones bombing an LNA convoy in Tarhuna,” he said. “This could be explained by the recent presence of an air defence system on the airbase.”

“It seems that Turkey deployed relay antennas in July to increase the range of their drones notably to strike al-Jufra and destroy two LNA Illyushin Il-76 military transport planes.”

This all indicates that Turkey is not only denying the UAE-backed LNA air supremacy in Libya but is also proving very capable of striking the LNA on the Tripoli government’s behalf.

At the same time, it appears that neither side can prevail over the other for now.

Özgül said an influx of more weaponry could potentially tip the balance in favour of the GNA.

“Turkey may try to send bigger TAI Anka-S armed MALE SİHA (Medium Altitude Long Endurance) drones,” he said. “However, operation and maintenance may be problematic for these bigger aircraft rather than the small and effective TB2s.”

The Anka-S, like the Wing Loong II, resembles the American MQ1A Predator drone although is slightly heavier.

More generally Turkish drones “are solid and robust, user-friendly and very effective compared to the Chinese series … Their small scale munitions (MAM-L and MAM-C) have pinpoint accuracy,” Özgül said.

He also anticipates that Turkey would likely continue to supply the GNA with such equipment.

But Turkish shipments of such equipment can be vulnerable. The air forces of Egypt and Sudan, for example, could easily intercept cargo planes while the Greek and Egyptian navies could intercept ships en route to Libya.

The key country that could hinder Turkey’s resupply efforts is Egypt.

“If Egyptian forces decide to intercept these shipments they can easily do so,” Özgül said.

Sebastien Roblin, a defence journalist and contributor to The National Interest, is sceptical that either the GNA or the LNA “can break their present stalemate through the aerial bombardment campaign, which will probably hit civilians at least as hard as any military targets.”

“Given the low cost of the drones, presumably both Turkey and Egypt and the UAE could continue deploying more into action, though one disadvantage Egypt and the UAE face is that they must acquire their drones from a third-party, China,” he said.

By contrast, the GNA has a more reliable supplier since Turkey builds its own armed drones and, therefore, is not at risk of having its supply chain potentially severed by a foreign supplier.

“The impression one gets is that for all the geographic breadth of LNA territory it currently doesn’t have enough support to break the GNA’s control over Tripoli and Misrata,” Roblin said.

Since Libya descended into chaos shortly after the Arab spring began in 2011, arms from the country have shown up in other war zones such as Mali and even Syria.

Imhof doubts that this would happen with either the GNA’s Bayraktar or the LNA’s Wing Loongs.

“As we see more states like China or Turkey producing armed and unarmed drones with very little restrictions on their proliferation, there is certainly a chance of them ending up in the hands of non-state actors,” he said.

“However, even though drones are often compared to video games, they are not as easy to operate.”

He cited the example of the GNA, which “still heavily relies on Turkish support to fly its drones … This might pose an obstacle to poorly resourced non-state actors.”

One solution Imhof suggested for preventing such lethal weapons systems from falling into the hands of non-state actors or terrorist groups is to “contractually bind the party purchasing the drone not to resell.”

“International agreements, which already exist for the non-proliferation of nuclear weapons, for example, are also an option but difficult to reach,” he said.

In the case of Libya, Imhof said “it would certainly help if Turkey and the UAE respected the UN arms embargo.

“Other countries like the United States have also done a very poor job in penalising violations of the embargo,” he said.
 
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about 12,5 m..

it should get about 1,3 ton payload.. it should be able to carry cirit, mk81 mk82, som

but it is not ready yet,, but first flight did happen some weeks ago..
thanks, yes i follow Turkish form closely i saw the first flight too
 
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Turkey is fighting a formidable drone war in Libya
  • Sep 14 2019 09:03 Gmt+3
  • Last Updated On: Sep 16 2019 12:44 Gmt+3
Source:https://ahvalnews.com/libya/turkey-fighting-formidable-drone-war-libya

Turkey has given decisive support to Libya’s Tripoli-based government, supplying it with armed drones that have carried out a series of air strikes on the besieging eastern forces of General Khalifa Haftar.

Turkish-made Bayraktar TB2 drones have carried out several air strikes on behalf of the Government of National Accord (GNA) and provided air support for its ground forces conducting counter-offensives, most notably helping them rout Haftar’s Libyan National Army (LNA) in the city of Gharyan in late June, which hitherto had served as a major logistical hub for the siege.

The LNA also has a fleet of Chinese-made Wing Loong II drones supplied by its main patron, the United Arab Emirates (UAE). They have attempted to destroy the GNA’s Bayraktar fleet, taking out a couple in air strikes against GNA bases.

Turkey appears to have successfully managed to replenish those losses with the most recent resupply of Bayraktars reportedly taking place in late August.

The GNA’s drones are based in Tripoli’s Mitiga International Airport and Misrata in northwestern Libya. The LNA carries out most of its air strikes from al-Jufra airbase in central Libya.

The GNA received 12 Bayraktar TB2s in two batches – four and eight – between May and July,” said Arnaud Delalande, a freelance defence and security expert.

At least half of them have been destroyed during UAE airstrikes using Wing Loong IIs,” he said. “The second batch delivered in July was to replace the losses of the first.

“It seems that a third batch was delivered in the end of August following new losses over the summer.”

Levent Özgül, a Turkish defence analyst, estimated there were “at least eight Bayraktar TB2s delivered to the GNA and based in Misrata”.

Oliver Imhof, a Libya researcher for the UK-based non-profit Airwars, which documents air strikes and casualties in the Middle East and Libya, said that “the GNA received another delivery of Turkish drones around August 27.”

“The number isn’t really clear, but given the high volume of GNA strikes at the moment it should be similar to the six to eight drones it operated before,” Imhof said.

While the number of Emirati drones operating in Libya is unclear, Imhof said both sides appeared to have similar capabilities based on the number of strikes they have carried out against each other, but the Emirati Wing Loongs had a longer range than the Bayraktars.

Delalande also pointed out that the Tripoli government is at a disadvantage compared to its adversary “because the range of the Bayraktar is only 150 km without ground relay antennas contrary to Wing Loong, which use satellites”.

The Bayraktars destroyed were all struck as they landed following their own missions,” he said.

They were probably spotted by ISR (intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance)/Wing Loongs after their air strikes.”

But, Delalande said, Turkish drones based in Misrata appeared to be under some kind of “protection bubble … No retaliation strikes were carried out by UAE drones despite Turkish drones bombing an LNA convoy in Tarhuna,” he said. “This could be explained by the recent presence of an air defence system on the airbase.”

“It seems that Turkey deployed relay antennas in July to increase the range of their drones notably to strike al-Jufra and destroy two LNA Illyushin Il-76 military transport planes.”

This all indicates that Turkey is not only denying the UAE-backed LNA air supremacy in Libya but is also proving very capable of striking the LNA on the Tripoli government’s behalf.

At the same time, it appears that neither side can prevail over the other for now.

Özgül said an influx of more weaponry could potentially tip the balance in favour of the GNA.

“Turkey may try to send bigger TAI Anka-S armed MALE SİHA (Medium Altitude Long Endurance) drones,” he said. “However, operation and maintenance may be problematic for these bigger aircraft rather than the small and effective TB2s.”

The Anka-S, like the Wing Loong II, resembles the American MQ1A Predator drone although is slightly heavier.

More generally Turkish drones “are solid and robust, user-friendly and very effective compared to the Chinese series … Their small scale munitions (MAM-L and MAM-C) have pinpoint accuracy,” Özgül said.

He also anticipates that Turkey would likely continue to supply the GNA with such equipment.

But Turkish shipments of such equipment can be vulnerable. The air forces of Egypt and Sudan, for example, could easily intercept cargo planes while the Greek and Egyptian navies could intercept ships en route to Libya.

The key country that could hinder Turkey’s resupply efforts is Egypt.

“If Egyptian forces decide to intercept these shipments they can easily do so,” Özgül said.

Sebastien Roblin, a defence journalist and contributor to The National Interest, is sceptical that either the GNA or the LNA “can break their present stalemate through the aerial bombardment campaign, which will probably hit civilians at least as hard as any military targets.”

“Given the low cost of the drones, presumably both Turkey and Egypt and the UAE could continue deploying more into action, though one disadvantage Egypt and the UAE face is that they must acquire their drones from a third-party, China,” he said.

By contrast, the GNA has a more reliable supplier since Turkey builds its own armed drones and, therefore, is not at risk of having its supply chain potentially severed by a foreign supplier.

“The impression one gets is that for all the geographic breadth of LNA territory it currently doesn’t have enough support to break the GNA’s control over Tripoli and Misrata,” Roblin said.

Since Libya descended into chaos shortly after the Arab spring began in 2011, arms from the country have shown up in other war zones such as Mali and even Syria.

Imhof doubts that this would happen with either the GNA’s Bayraktar or the LNA’s Wing Loongs.

“As we see more states like China or Turkey producing armed and unarmed drones with very little restrictions on their proliferation, there is certainly a chance of them ending up in the hands of non-state actors,” he said.

“However, even though drones are often compared to video games, they are not as easy to operate.”

He cited the example of the GNA, which “still heavily relies on Turkish support to fly its drones … This might pose an obstacle to poorly resourced non-state actors.”

One solution Imhof suggested for preventing such lethal weapons systems from falling into the hands of non-state actors or terrorist groups is to “contractually bind the party purchasing the drone not to resell.”

“International agreements, which already exist for the non-proliferation of nuclear weapons, for example, are also an option but difficult to reach,” he said.

In the case of Libya, Imhof said “it would certainly help if Turkey and the UAE respected the UN arms embargo.

“Other countries like the United States have also done a very poor job in penalising violations of the embargo,” he said.
Do you have a physical evidence of your claim? Of course, you don't.
 
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Do you have a physical evidence of your claim? Of course, you don't.
Do you mean somethings like this:
ad2f9f2fly1g9vx7i9gvaj20k00qowht.jpg
ad2f9f2fly1g9vx7ij490j20k00qo41t.jpg
 
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so what do you guys think the future of middle east will be ? big advance and bold drones Turkish style ? or do you think high speed stealth drones Iranian style?




Turkish style

EEqgQKXX4AE0IjG.jpg


5df634e7c9de3d2580af4c6b.jpg


200920160832168418344_2.jpg







Iranian style

57822378.jpg


401963_250.jpg


p1741502_main.jpg


f253d9e0b5896d6324fb4f134c97498257618f62b85011e17ca6fa7ae0df5994--sm.jpg
 
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so what do you guys think the future of middle east will be ? big advance and bold drones Turkish style ? or do you think high speed stealth drones Iranian style?




Turkish style

EEqgQKXX4AE0IjG.jpg


5df634e7c9de3d2580af4c6b.jpg


200920160832168418344_2.jpg







Iranian style

57822378.jpg


401963_250.jpg


p1741502_main.jpg


f253d9e0b5896d6324fb4f134c97498257618f62b85011e17ca6fa7ae0df5994--sm.jpg


I expect Iran to reveal somerhing big since It takes long time after they introduced the last MALE drone. I suspect they are working something bigger bro. Having any info ?
 
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Turkey will start working on supersonic unmanned fighter aircraft. It is stated by officials btw.
 
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so what do you guys think the future of middle east will be ? big advance and bold drones Turkish style ? or do you think high speed stealth drones Iranian style?




Turkish style

EEqgQKXX4AE0IjG.jpg


5df634e7c9de3d2580af4c6b.jpg


200920160832168418344_2.jpg







Iranian style

57822378.jpg


401963_250.jpg


p1741502_main.jpg


f253d9e0b5896d6324fb4f134c97498257618f62b85011e17ca6fa7ae0df5994--sm.jpg
both iran and turkey will try to get both stealth and long range/heavy payload drones. but i don't think we see heavy drones in our fleet in any foreseeable future.
 
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I expect Iran to reveal somerhing big since It takes long time after they introduced the last MALE drone. I suspect they are working something bigger bro. Having any info ?

yes Navy already building Sejil MALE drone, IRGC never tells what they are working on and they are working on Maede vertical take off and landing MALE UAV possibly with supersonic speed using ramjet engine after its vertical take off, and Army Airforce is building Sofre Mahi supersonic fighter / bomber drone but they are still heavily classified so we do not have a lot of good quality photos of them just some that are leaked, and an other one with NANO technology casing



Sofre Mahi ( Army Airforce project )

_DSC0067-2.jpg


81.jpg


10936674_848.jpg





Maede ( IRGC project )

%D8%A7%D9%81%D8%AA%D8%AA%D8%A7%D8%AD+%D9%86%D9%85%D8%A7%DB%8C%D8%B4%DA%AF%D8%A7%D9%87+%D8%AF%D8%B3%D8%AA%D8%A7%D9%88%D8%B1%D8%AF%D9%87%D8%A7%DB%8C+%D8%B9%D9%84%D9%85%DB%8C+%D9%88+%D9%BE%DA%98%D9%88%D9%87%D8%B4%DB%8C+%D9%86%DB%8C%D8%B1%D9%88%D9%87%D8%A7%DB%8C+%D9%85%D8%B3%D9%84%D8%AD.jpg


9114376_340.jpg


9114378_573.jpg




Sejil ( NAVY project )

f253d9e0b5896d6324fb4f134c97498257618f62b85011e17ca6fa7ae0df5994--sm.jpg





( this one is without name and its bigger then this built by NANO technology, this is the scaled down model )

political-31325693-5-fSd.jpg


64758_139.jpg


both iran and turkey will try to get both stealth and long range/heavy payload drones. but i don't think we see heavy drones in our fleet in any foreseeable future.


well Iran is looking to experiment with NANO and Stealth materials and casing more but we do not want turbo prop engines we are clearly heading for use of turbojet and turbofan and ramjet engines in our UAVs, but Turkey got to experiment with technology needed for bigger more powerful UAVs with Airborne radars first they will start their stealth experiments later on the road and its good news for us that we got stealth technology first as we got to study it and build the materials and sub companies needed for these and heavy turbofan engines this will take a lot of Turkey's time and effort to build everything needed to mass produce the materials and that will give us time to build Airborne AESA radars for a fighter jet like Drone the next logical step for Turkey after supersonic Drones is an UAV with vertical take off and landing
 
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well Iran is looking to experiment with NANO and Stealth materials and casing more but we do not want turbo prop engines we are clearly heading for use of turbojet and turbofan and ramjet engines in our UAVs, but Turkey got to experiment with technology needed for bigger more powerful UAVs with Airborne radars first they will start their stealth experiments later on the road and its good news for us that we got stealth technology first as we got to study it and build the materials and sub companies needed for these and heavy turbofan engines this will take a lot of Turkey's time and effort to build everything needed to mass produce the materials and that will give us time to build Airborne AESA radars for a fighter jet like Drone the next logical step for Turkey after supersonic Drones is an UAV with vertical take off and landing
well looking to threats turkey faces compared to what Iran should face we can know why each choose the pass for their UAV developments. turkey uses it's f-16 to bomb Kurdish rebels, we should fight against US and it's proxies.
 
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