DRDO claim on LCA export premature: Former top IAF officers

[Bhasad Singh Mundi]

Jf-17 deployed operationally in NW.Jf-17 is economically good Plane With State of Art Tech Like Bvraam

Pls provide source of jf17 being used in war gainst terror. I can only find f16s being used and thats why more of them were purchased. its economically good plane for PAF they inducted the plane without ground attack capabilities. BVRAAM is not state of art tech.

 

[AUz]

O.K, so from all the discussion uptil now. This is the unbiased, honest conclusion.

All the sources used for Tejas are from Indians and their own statistics. All from credible websites (Charts, official developers of Tejas and their numbers during airshow presentations, test results reported by Indian officials etc.)


I will summarize five really important categories of performance that are critical to a fighter-jets performance and capability. And then we'll move on to other critical aspects.

Tejas

1- Range: 3000km
2- Payload: 3500kg (can be maximized to 3700kg)
3- Combat Radius: 300km to 350 km (with inflight refueling it can be increased upto 1000+ km)
4-Flight ceiling: 50,000ft
5- Speed: Mach 1.6 (can be increased to 1.8 with lighter loads and other variables involved).

JF-17 Thunder

1- Range: 3,840km
2- Payload: 4,000 kg+
3- Combat Radius: 1,352km
4- Flight ceiling: 55,500ft
5- Speed: Mach 1.8

Uptil now, it has been established that JF-17 is a superior fighter aircraft than Tejas when it comes to range, payload, combat radius, and flight ceiling. (While both aircrafts can fly at similar speeds).

JF-17 Thunder can fly much higher than Tejas (a critical factor in air war), can carry more payload, and can conduct operations at much farther distances than Tejas without refueling.

=================================================

Sources for the most up-to-date information on JF-17 Thunder block-1

JF-17 Thunder's official specifications from 2011 Air Show in Turkey.

Source for payload figure: A screen shot from the *official* presentation of JF-17 Thunder program's director from CATIC.

Presentation given to the delegates of potential customers.

Sources for the most up-to-date information on Tejas Mk-1

MK-I specification chart of Tejas shared by Senior Indian Mod and all data deemed authentic (In line with official publications of HAL to potential customers during airshows etc.)

Tejas' capabilities

"An evaluation of the Tejas' combat capability must consider its flying performance, its avionics and the weapon load it carries. At IOC, it already flies at Mach 1.6 (2,000 kmph); operates up to 15,000 metres (50,000 feet); and carries 3,500 kg of mission payload, including weapons and sensors. Its combat radius is 300-350 km, which would be extended next year through in-flight refuelling."

From an article from as recent as Dec, 2013. Shared by an Indian member to show the true statistics of Tejas.

The Tejas fighter's role in war | Business Standard News

NOTE: I did not use either HAL or PAC's websites. Because I know that these websites aren't updated since many years. And both projects have come a long way since 2007, 08 (when these websites came online with data about both projects).

Lastly, This, in no way, a final version. There are many other critical fields to be looked into--such as avionics, radars, weapon-systems etc.

@Windjammer @Aeronaut @NKVD @gslv mk3

 

[Lord Of Gondor]

Can we restrict the thread to the Ex-IAF men's views on the program,please?

 

[cloud_9]

There is an amazing,cost effective, tailor made fighter with zero crashes in the last 15 years...so not exactly brain farts.
And I agree with some who say that IAF had commitment issues until recently.
The IAF should have had a better system to monitor the program,mentor it and help rectify the shortcomings.
The Navy OTOH is funding the NLCA project and wants to operate the NLCA from it's carriers!
That is confidence!

Can you provide us with the hours they have cloaked and what were the mission objective of those flights.

Navy has been successful because the Naval yards had previous experience and they didn't go Nazi on making everything swadeshi.The foreign content in their products has minimised with time as they gained experience unlike DRDO.

 

[FunkyGen]

Can we restrict the thread to the Ex-IAF men's views on the program,please?

hahaha defeated much


@acetophenol Meri jaan meine kaha tha na "Less Competent Aircraft"

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Problem with IAF is they don't accept a platform unless it is 100% ready. Same with SU 30 MKI, first there were SU 30 MK/SU 30 Ms but IAF refused to use those in large numbers. They held out until MKI came. That was a top end Russian fighter arguably Asia's best.

Imagine this process happening with an Indian made replacement for their beloved MiG 21 BiS. They won't induct it until it is 110% ready for combat. Even F 16 when inducted could not fire BVRAAM missiles until 1989. Tejas is being forced to do it before induction!

Having said that Tejas does have many great feature thta make it stand apart from the rest of it's contemporaries like the F 16 A/B, JF 17, Gripen C/D, etc.

1> High Thrust to Weight Ratio 1:1.07
2> Very Low Wing Loading 50lbs/sqft.
3> Very high thrust engine GE 404 IN20 (89KN with afterburner)
4> Advanced composite usage upto 45% of airframe structure, second highest in any fighter aircraft after Eurofighter giving it very low overall weight (lightest 4+ Generation Fighter) and high degree of stealth.
5> RCS is effectively 1/3 of Mirage 2000H due to RAM material usage as well as composite usage meaning RCS is 0.3 msq.
6> 8 hardpoints.
7> Mach 2 CAS, Mach 1.6 operable limit.
8> FLIR pod enabled with passive IRST.
9> 150KM for 3/5msq target detection capable ELTA 2032 hybrid radar, 150km for air to ground tank sized target, 300km for destroyer sized target at naval engagements.
10> All Axis Digital FCS with Quadruplex Computers.
11> Mach 1.1 at sea level.
12> Naval variant under development.
13> 65 % Indigenous Components used.
14> Elbit Systems DASH III Helmet Mounted Display System for targetting using high bore offsight missiles.
15> Very affordable $ 26,000,000 - 28,000,000 only.

BS (concocted-fake-nonsense) stats of a jet under development since decades ,,

Then why does'nt JF 17 have any of the above except the 15> point? DSI is not used by any modern fighter other than F 35. JF 17 by today's standards is a 3rd + generation fighter like MiG 21 and F 7 UPG.

Wake up n smell the coffee kiddo..

 

[gslv mk3]

3- Combat Radius: 300km to 350 km (with inflight refueling it can be increased upto 1000+ km)

Wait till specifications of sp 1 are out.

4-Flight ceiling: 50,000ft

Can be increased to 60,000ft.

5- Speed: Mach 1.6 (can be increased to 1.8 with lighter loads and other variables involved).

Design aim is mach 1.8.






"

 

[AUz]

Wait till specifications of sp 1 are out.



Can be increased to 60,000ft.



Design aim is mach 1.8.

My conclusion still stands as of now.

Hopefully new specifications for Tejas will be out soon.

 

[gslv mk3]

BS (concocted-fake-nonsense)

Truth about LCA,which certain trolls cannot swallow.Who told you its fake ?

stats of a jet under development since decades

Every successful aircraft in the world today took decades.Check how many years Rafale took.

 

[Lord Of Gondor]

O.K, so from all the discussion uptil now. This is the unbiased, honest conclusion.

All the sources used for Tejas are from Indians and their own statistics. All from credible websites (Charts, official developers of Tejas and their numbers during airshow presentations, test results reported by Indian officials etc.)


I will summarize five really important categories of performance that are critical to a fighter-jets performance and capability. And then we'll move on to other critical aspects.
Tejas
1- Range: 3000km
2- Payload: 3500km (can be maximized to 3700kg)
3- Combat Radius: 300km to 350 km (with inflight refueling it can be increased upto 1000+ km)
4-Flight ceiling: 50,000ft
5- Speed: Mach 1.6 (can be increased to 1.8 with lighter loads and other variables involved).
JF-17 Thunder

1- Range: 3,840km
2- Payload: 4,000 km+
3- Combat Radius: 1,352km
4- Flight ceiling: 55,500ft
5- Speed: Mach 1.8

Uptil now, it has been established that JF-17 is a superior fighter aircraft than Tejas when it comes to range, payload, combat radius, and flight ceiling. (While both aircrafts can fly at similar speeds).

JF-17 Thunder can fly much higher than Tejas (a critical factor in air war), can carry more payload, and can conduct operations at much farther distances than Tejas without refueling.

Sources for the most up-to-date information on JF-17 Thunder block-1
JF-17 Thunder's official specifications from 2011 Air Show in Turkey.

Source for payload figure: A screen shot from the *official* presentation of JF-17 Thunder program's director from CATIC.

Presentation given to the delegates of potential customers.

Sources for the most up-to-date information on Tejas Mk-1

MK-I specification chart of Tejas shared by Senior Indian Mod and all data deemed authentic (In line with official publications of HAL to potential customers during airshows etc.)

Tejas' capabilities

"An evaluation of the Tejas' combat capability must consider its flying performance, its avionics and the weapon load it carries. At IOC, it already flies at Mach 1.6 (2,000 kmph); operates up to 15,000 metres (50,000 feet); and carries 3,500 kg of mission payload, including weapons and sensors. Its combat radius is 300-350 km, which would be extended next year through in-flight refuelling."
From an article from as recent as Dec, 2013. Shared by an Indian member to show the true statistics of Tejas.

The Tejas fighter's role in war | Business Standard News

NOTE: I did not use either HAL or PAC's websites. Because I know that these websites aren't updated since many years. And both projects have come a long way since 2007, 08 (when these websites came online with data about both projects).

Lastly, This, in no way, a final version. There are many other critical fields to be looked into--such as avionics, radars, weapon-systems etc.

@Windjammer @Aeronaut @NKVD @gslv mk3

It seems like you are derailing the thread by quoting references to the JF17.
Errors in your post:The combat radius is for a particular type of mission and neither the ADA or the PAC have stated the loads the A/C carries to achieve that.
This was discussed on another forum and I'm quoting the post for truth:

He has an obvious point. There is no magic. The numbers are not comparable. They can't be.

Public sources say that Tejas internal fuel capacity is 2458 kg (from DRDO), & T-50 is 2655 litres. Given the average density of jet fuel, that means the T-50 carries slightly less fuel (about 10% less) than Tejas, if both figures are correct. Empty weights are about the same (6470 kg T-50, 6560 kg Tejas - both official). They have variants of the same engine, with the Tejas having a little more thrust. Given their similarity, SFC of the two engines is unlikely to be very different. A difference in drag large enough to cause a massive difference in fuel consumption per km is not credible. One would therefore expect their ranges, in similar conditions, to be of the same order.

The range (not combat radius) of the T-50 is given, by various sources, as 1851 km. That is an exact conversion of 1000 nautical miles, i.e. a very round number. It's probably, therefore, a very approximate number, which has been given spurious precision in the conversion to different units (a common error). No information is given by any source I've found about the circumstances in which this range is achieved, but they all call it 'range', not 'radius'. A reasonable assumption would be that somewhere, sometime, it's been said that the T-50 can fly about 1000 nautical miles.

The Tejas figure you give is explicitly combat radius. Combat radius is the distance from base to the place the aircraft does some fighting. To achieve a combat radius of X, maximum range must be much more than 2X, because not only does the aircraft have to fly out & back, but it also has to carry weapons, & do some fighting when it gets there.

Wikipedia quotes airforce-technology.com as saying that Tejas has a range of 3000 km (ferry range, I assume) & Janes as giving range of 850 km, & combat radius of 300 km. No parameters (weapons load, time on station, etc) are given. The specifications for T-50 are said to be from KAI & LM, but neither of their product pages specifies a range. Much the same for Tejas: published official sources don't give ranges.

From all that, I'd say that the 'facts' about their ranges are that they're probably not very different. A very big difference would defy physics.

Last edited by swerve; 21st May 2014 at 19:42.​

Tejas Mk1 and Mk2 thread - Page 17
The payload is 3700Kg as of now and it was 3500Kg before(The aircraft is still work-in-progress)
The Tejas was bench marked against the Mirage 2000 and it's high altitude operations capability and the reports are that the Tejas is a better aircraft.
And the higher service ceiling does not account for much especially in A2A engagements where the missiles will unquestionably outperform the aircraft and in A2G any engagements in ideal situations at high altitudes(Eg: Siachen) would be considerably lesser than 15000m!
Plus the two brochure scans that you have put for the Jf17 have conflicting payload figures.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

HERE IS A THE specs CHECK IT

LCA

• Crew: 1
• Length: 13.20 m (43 ft 4 in)
• Wingspan: 8.20 m (26 ft 11 in)
• Height: 4.40 m (14 ft 9 in)
• Wing area: 38.4 m² (413 ft²)
• Empty weight: 6,500 kg (14,300 lb)
• Loaded weight: 9,500 kg[127] (20,944 lb)
• Max. takeoff weight: 13,200 kg[127] (29,100 lb)
• Powerplant: 1 × F404-GE-IN20 turbofan
  • Dry thrust: 53.9 kN[130] (12,100 lbf)
  • Thrust with afterburner: 89.8 kN (20,200 lbf[131])
• Internal fuel capacity: 2,458 kg
• External fuel capacity: 2 x 1,200-litre drop tank at inboard, 1 x 725-litre drop tank under fuselage

Performance

• Maximum speed: Tested up to Mach 1.6 for IOC-I (1,350 km/h) (CAS) at high altitude,[127] theoretically capable of Mach 1.8[132]
• Range: 850 km[133] (459 nmi, 528 mi)
• Combat radius: 1300 km[133] (162 nmi, 186 mi)
• Ferry range: 3,000 km, Theoretically capable of 3,500 km[82] (1,840 mi)
• Service ceiling: 15,000 m[127] (49,200 ft, possibility of being raised to 60,000 ft)
• Wing loading: 247 kg/m² (50.7 lb/ft²)
• Thrust/weight: 1.07[127]
• g-limits: +8/−3.5 g[127] (to be raised to +10/-3.5 g)

JF-17 THUNDER
General characteristics

• Crew: 1
• Length: 14.93 m (49 ft[133])
• Wingspan: 9.45 m (31 ft, including 2 wingtip missiles[133])
• Height: 4.72 m (15 ft 6 in[133])
• Wing area: 24.4 m²[134] (263 ft²)
• Empty weight: 6,586 kg (14,520 lb[133])
• Loaded weight: 9,100 kg (20,062 lb)
• Useful load: 3000 kg (6600 lb)
• Max. takeoff weight: 12,383 kg (27,300 lb[133])
• Powerplant: 1 × Klimov RD-93
  • Dry thrust: 49.4 kN[15] / 51.2 kN (11,106 lbf / 11,510 lbf)
  • Thrust with afterburner: 84.5 kN (19,000 lbf[133])
• G-limit: +8 g / -3 g[133]
• Internal Fuel Capacity: 2,300 kg (5,130 lb[133])

Performance

• Maximum speed: Mach 1.6 (1,217.9 mph; 1,960.1 km/h)[135]
• Combat radius: 1,352 km[136] (840 mi)
• Ferry range: 3,482 km (1,880 NM[133])
• Service ceiling: 16,920 m (55,500 ft[133])
• Thrust/weight: 0.95 [133]

Armament

Source wikipedia...

 

[gslv mk3]

Meri jaan meine kaha tha na "Less Competent Aircraft"

Don't be foolish.

 

[NKVD]

"An evaluation of the Tejas' combat capability must consider its flying performance, its avionics and the weapon load it carries. At IOC, it already flies at Mach 1.6 (2,000 kmph); operates up to 15,000 metres (50,000 feet); and carries 3,500 kg of mission payload, including weapons and sensors. Its combat radius is 300-350 km, which would be extended next year through in-flight refuelling."
From an article from as recent as Dec, 2013. Shared by an Indian member to show the true statistics of Tejas.
The Tejas fighter's role in war | Business Standard News
NOTE: I did not use either HAL or PAC's websites. Because I know that these websites aren't updated since many years. And both projects have come a long way since 2007, 08 (when these websites came online with data about both projects).
Lastly, This, in no way, a final version. There are many other critical fields to be looked into--such as avionics, radars, weapon-systems etc.

Pretty Much Accurate Upto the Line Mate But you missed on thing Given in Article its self the proposed Specs Are Upto Ioc-2 Mark Not Foc

from Article itself
"An evaluation of the Tejas' combat capability must consider its flying performance, its avionics and the weapon load it carries. At IOC, it already flies at Mach 1.6 (2,000 kmph); operates up to 15,000 metres (50,000 feet); and carries 3,500 kg of mission payload, including weapons and sensors. Its combat radius is 300-350 km, which would be extended next year through in-flight refuelling. By FOC next year, this performance would be enhanced."

Fnal Conclusion Specs Are upto the Ioc 2 Mark

eg Service ceiling according to you 15km according to tejas website
LCA Tejas - Specifications: Leading Particulars and Performance

But after Foc it will be 16Km (60,000ft)Source Hal website
Welcome to Aerospace Division of HAL

 

[gslv mk3]

Source wikipedia...

Do better than trolling here.

 

[Lord Of Gondor]

hahaha defeated much


@acetophenol Meri jaan meine kaha tha na "Less Competent Aircraft"

Read the thread title,dumbfuck.