Don’t let 26/11 bog down talks: Pakistan to India

[American Eagle]

As a US based observer with long ago time in Pakistan, 1963-65, but kept current from having been an internationa banker; a reservist at the Joint Chiefs of Staff-staff level; and with friends currently from both Pakistan and India, and elsewhere in SW Asia, here is my two cents:

1. The status of Kashmir is Confidence Building Measures toward a siingle state parliament for all three parts of Kashmir with security and international relations to be continued as is by Paksitan, India, and China. CBM's include more open borders along the LOC, trouble being terrorists using LOC as access to do terrorist raids into Indian Administered Kashmir then run back into Pakistan Administered Kashmir.

2. Rivers and waters talks must be current and end silly, petty bickering when long standing UN and World Bank/IMF agreements with both India and Pakistan already define how to use and share water and water resources for hydropower and irrigation and rivers navigation by boats and commercial vessels.

3. Coastal fishing rights agreements need to be clearer and have a more open ended clause for uneducated innocent fishermen who have no formal navigation systems to know which side of an at sea dotted boundary line they may be on while doing commercial fishing. There are enough fish in the sea for both nations.

4. Status of Rann of Kutch finalized border, which is hard to deal with because of moving alluvial plane due to on again, off again marshlands areas, needs to likewise have exception clauses for ignorantly innocent incursions by simple nomads, herders, and such instead of making a mountain out of a mole hill over crossing an invisible dotted line. ***I qualify to comment on Rann of Kutch direcltly as that is where I was wounded end of January 1965.

5. Shared natural resources and commerce, export and imports, free trade vs. the irregular on again off again commerce used for no purpose but to be spiteful between Pakistan and India, which is just damn stupid to be blunt.

6. Aviation treaties to be updated and skies be kept open for commercial flights for both Pakistan and India regarding overflights of each other.

7. Allow India to come into Pakistan to verify sites are shut down, permamently which India claims are or were terrorist training camps. Be open...and India would be wise to use staff from among their Muslim population as verification staffers to avoid dumb allegations intended by hate mongers to stif up religious animosities.

I'm sure I missed other areas of concern which need calm, practical, and down to earth solutions without stupifying idiocy with crowds, ranting and violence within both nations, India and Pakistan, toward the other.

**I unilaterally would favor a common public schools curriculum for both Pakistan and India which teaches what these two great nations have in common instead of promoting via education radicalism and differences. The UN Education Directorate might help develop in common core courses for both nations public, and if practical, private school systems to use in this regard.

 

[Ignited Mind]

As a US based observer with long ago time in Pakistan, 1963-65, but kept current from having been an internationa banker; a reservist at the Joint Chiefs of Staff-staff level; and with friends currently from both Pakistan and India, and elsewhere in SW Asia, here is my two cents:

1. The status of Kashmir is Confidence Building Measures toward a siingle state parliament for all three parts of Kashmir with security and international relations to be continued as is by Paksitan, India, and China. CBM's include more open borders along the LOC, trouble being terrorists using LOC as access to do terrorist raids into Indian Administered Kashmir then run back into Pakistan Administered Kashmir.

2. Rivers and waters talks must be current and end silly, petty bickering when long standing UN and World Bank/IMF agreements with both India and Pakistan already define how to use and share water and water resources for hydropower and irrigation and rivers navigation by boats and commercial vessels.

3. Coastal fishing rights agreements need to be clearer and have a more open ended clause for uneducated innocent fishermen who have no formal navigation systems to know which side of an at sea dotted boundary line they may be on while doing commercial fishing. There are enough fish in the sea for both nations.

4. Status of Rann of Kutch finalized border, which is hard to deal with because of moving alluvial plane due to on again, off again marshlands areas, needs to likewise have exception clauses for ignorantly innocent incursions by simple nomads, herders, and such instead of making a mountain out of a mole hill over crossing an invisible dotted line. ***I qualify to comment on Rann of Kutch direcltly as that is where I was wounded end of January 1965.

5. Shared natural resources and commerce, export and imports, free trade vs. the irregular on again off again commerce used for no purpose but to be spiteful between Pakistan and India, which is just damn stupid to be blunt.

6. Aviation treaties to be updated and skies be kept open for commercial flights for both Pakistan and India regarding overflights of each other.

7. Allow India to come into Pakistan to verify sites are shut down, permamently which India claims are or were terrorist training camps. Be open...and India would be wise to use staff from among their Muslim population as verification staffers to avoid dumb allegations intended by hate mongers to stif up religious animosities.

I'm sure I missed other areas of concern which need calm, practical, and down to earth solutions without stupifying idiocy with crowds, ranting and violence within both nations, India and Pakistan, toward the other.

**I unilaterally would favor a common public schools curriculum for both Pakistan and India which teaches what these two great nations have in common instead of promoting via education radicalism and differences. The UN Education Directorate might help develop in common core courses for both nations public, and if practical, private school systems to use in this regard.

Nice effort but everything said and done, could you please answer a simple question of mine?

Why does India need to strive for peace with Pakistan? India would rather strive for peace with China which is a far serious long term threat/rival. Why Pakistan? What does India gain?

 

[American Eagle]

India needs to strive for peace with every nation and Pakistan is an adjacent nation which has impact on the Indian economy which could be turned into a profitable instead of only a defense cost drain for the total Indian economy.

Think deeply and positively is my humble suggestion to you. Take the long view.

 

[American Eagle]

PS - My newly added aviator is as a retired full Colonel, USAF, photo is of recent date when I was getting ready to go to a Chapter meeting of the Military Officers Assocation of America, a national veterans organization of both retired and active duty officers and warrant officers of all branches of the services here.

It tickles me to have a website rank of Lieutenant (first lieutenant) which was my rank while serving inside Pakistan 1963-1965.

Cheers.

 

[Fireurimagination]

As a US based observer with long ago time in Pakistan, 1963-65, but kept current from having been an internationa banker; a reservist at the Joint Chiefs of Staff-staff level; and with friends currently from both Pakistan and India, and elsewhere in SW Asia, here is my two cents:

1. The status of Kashmir is Confidence Building Measures toward a siingle state parliament for all three parts of Kashmir with security and international relations to be continued as is by Paksitan, India, and China. CBM's include more open borders along the LOC, trouble being terrorists using LOC as access to do terrorist raids into Indian Administered Kashmir then run back into Pakistan Administered Kashmir.

2. Rivers and waters talks must be current and end silly, petty bickering when long standing UN and World Bank/IMF agreements with both India and Pakistan already define how to use and share water and water resources for hydropower and irrigation and rivers navigation by boats and commercial vessels.

3. Coastal fishing rights agreements need to be clearer and have a more open ended clause for uneducated innocent fishermen who have no formal navigation systems to know which side of an at sea dotted boundary line they may be on while doing commercial fishing. There are enough fish in the sea for both nations.

4. Status of Rann of Kutch finalized border, which is hard to deal with because of moving alluvial plane due to on again, off again marshlands areas, needs to likewise have exception clauses for ignorantly innocent incursions by simple nomads, herders, and such instead of making a mountain out of a mole hill over crossing an invisible dotted line. ***I qualify to comment on Rann of Kutch direcltly as that is where I was wounded end of January 1965.

5. Shared natural resources and commerce, export and imports, free trade vs. the irregular on again off again commerce used for no purpose but to be spiteful between Pakistan and India, which is just damn stupid to be blunt.

6. Aviation treaties to be updated and skies be kept open for commercial flights for both Pakistan and India regarding overflights of each other.

7. Allow India to come into Pakistan to verify sites are shut down, permamently which India claims are or were terrorist training camps. Be open...and India would be wise to use staff from among their Muslim population as verification staffers to avoid dumb allegations intended by hate mongers to stif up religious animosities.

I'm sure I missed other areas of concern which need calm, practical, and down to earth solutions without stupifying idiocy with crowds, ranting and violence within both nations, India and Pakistan, toward the other.

**I unilaterally would favor a common public schools curriculum for both Pakistan and India which teaches what these two great nations have in common instead of promoting via education radicalism and differences. The UN Education Directorate might help develop in common core courses for both nations public, and if practical, private school systems to use in this regard.

To do the bolded part first Pakistan will have to give up using terror as a state weapon itself, it may be doing so for US and getting the $s in return but it surely isn't doing so in case of India on the contrary it provides safe havens, funding, protection and what not all to these terror elements (read LeT, Jaish, Hizbul all banned by UN etc) and use the same against India and Indian interests and till date Pakistan has shown no inclination whatsoever to move against these elements or give up on it's terror policies

 

[Ignited Mind]

India needs to strive for peace with every nation and Pakistan is an adjacent nation which has impact on the Indian economy which could be turned into a profitable instead of only a defense cost drain for the total Indian economy.

Think deeply and positively is my humble suggestion to you. Take the long view.

Sir, I'm thinking with a very cool head right now and that's why I decided to begin this conversation with an American and not a Pakistani because I know that an American perspective will be least emotional and I hate emotional debates.

Now, as far as the economy part is concerned, I'd way we have the whole world to look forward to be it China, East Asia, Middle East, Europe, the Americas etc. What's so special about Pakistan? It's not a huge market either and with the proportion of its population willing to spend on hi-tech goods and services (in which India seeks to excel in future) being dismally small, I don't see how it is a siginificantly lucrative destination for Indian businesses.

As far as Defence spending is concerned, that is inconsequential as India would have to keep its armed forces up-to-date because of the China threat anyway.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

American Eagle --

first and foremost, i hope you enjoyed your stay in our country and you were received well


second of all; we will not allow indians to ''come into Pakistan to verify sites are shut down'' because


a.) it would imply that Pakistani state is complicit in terrorism, which is ridiculous

b.) it doesnt help solve the outstanding issue of Kashmir --which is a main reason why militancy and anger among Kashmiris exists in the first place!

c.) the indians are the ones that are using cheap delay tactics, since they love to get attention and be showered by reinforcement -- good example is 26/11 drama 2 years later while they have still failed miserably to provide sufficient evidence

d.) Pakistan would/should not take any action until the culprits of terrorist acts against Pakistanis are nabbed; especially those responsible for the Samjhota Express blast in which over 60 of our countrymen were incinerated ruthlessly. Pakistanis are very forgiving and merciful people, but we never forget.



Regarding the sharing of natural resources and commerce, export and imports, free trade etc. --- are you referring to Kashmir or are you referring to Pakistan and india as a whole? Because sharing will not take place as we are both sovereign countries. Free trade is maybe a possibility depending on where relations go.

neither nation will do something that goes against their economic interests......I did once propose that Pakistani and indian pharmaceutical companies should work together to produce cheap alternatives to over-priced medicines/prescription drugs


i appreciate that you take interest in our side of the world; but also understand that there is much bad history and mutually shared suspicion for eachother....I would also ask you to understand that if anyone considers giving moral and other support to Kashmiris --who themselves are demanding an end to indian occupation --as terrorism -----> then Pakistan is a ''terrorist'' state.

ground realities would suggest the opposite....i would go so far as to say ''au contraire!''

 

[justanobserver]

a.) it would imply that Pakistani state is complicit in terrorism, which is ridiculous

c.) the indians are the ones that are using cheap delay tactics, since they love to get attention and be showered by reinforcement -- good example is 26/11 drama 2 years later while they have still failed miserably to provide sufficient evidence

Just highlighting these quotes, carry on the discussion

 

[amigo]

i don't think there will be good talks among two countries unless anything constructive is done in case of culprits of mumbai attack. there will be small meetings, other than that nothing goona happen.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

u seem quite the 'observer'; but also seems the brain is not functioning well despite the cup of coffee since you are just highlighting and not able to comment; or at least state WHY you did so

 

[LAKHNAVI]

Nice effort but everything said and done, could you please answer a simple question of mine?

Why does India need to strive for peace with Pakistan? India would rather strive for peace with China which is a far serious long term threat/rival. Why Pakistan? What does India gain?

PAKISTANS' SO CALLED GOODWILL

 

[LAKHNAVI]

India needs to strive for peace with every nation and Pakistan is an adjacent nation which has impact on the Indian economy which could be turned into a profitable instead of only a defense cost drain for the total Indian economy.

Think deeply and positively is my humble suggestion to you. Take the long view.

with so much of animosity shown by the pakistani members towards India , just why should we strive for peace with pakistan. they have absolutly no impact on us economically or emotionally. infact with the current attitude of the pakistani govt it would be much better if we just snap all ties with pakistan.
as for your advice remember just one thing pakistan is not canada.

 

[Hulk]

I don't think it makes sense to talk to them, when the educated lot still feel 26/11 is a drama. This is what they think about a crime that happened in India. You behave this way and then expect us to start talks. When you are so insensitive what is the point talking.

 

[PRACTICAL PATRIOT]

As a US based observer with long ago time in Pakistan, 1963-65, but kept current from having been an internationa banker; a reservist at the Joint Chiefs of Staff-staff level; and with friends currently from both Pakistan and India, and elsewhere in SW Asia, here is my two cents:

1. The status of Kashmir is Confidence Building Measures toward a siingle state parliament for all three parts of Kashmir with security and international relations to be continued as is by Paksitan, India, and China. CBM's include more open borders along the LOC, trouble being terrorists using LOC as access to do terrorist raids into Indian Administered Kashmir then run back into Pakistan Administered Kashmir.

2. Rivers and waters talks must be current and end silly, petty bickering when long standing UN and World Bank/IMF agreements with both India and Pakistan already define how to use and share water and water resources for hydropower and irrigation and rivers navigation by boats and commercial vessels.

3. Coastal fishing rights agreements need to be clearer and have a more open ended clause for uneducated innocent fishermen who have no formal navigation systems to know which side of an at sea dotted boundary line they may be on while doing commercial fishing. There are enough fish in the sea for both nations.

4. Status of Rann of Kutch finalized border, which is hard to deal with because of moving alluvial plane due to on again, off again marshlands areas, needs to likewise have exception clauses for ignorantly innocent incursions by simple nomads, herders, and such instead of making a mountain out of a mole hill over crossing an invisible dotted line. ***I qualify to comment on Rann of Kutch direcltly as that is where I was wounded end of January 1965.

5. Shared natural resources and commerce, export and imports, free trade vs. the irregular on again off again commerce used for no purpose but to be spiteful between Pakistan and India, which is just damn stupid to be blunt.

6. Aviation treaties to be updated and skies be kept open for commercial flights for both Pakistan and India regarding overflights of each other.

7. Allow India to come into Pakistan to verify sites are shut down, permamently which India claims are or were terrorist training camps. Be open...and India would be wise to use staff from among their Muslim population as verification staffers to avoid dumb allegations intended by hate mongers to stif up religious animosities.

I'm sure I missed other areas of concern which need calm, practical, and down to earth solutions without stupifying idiocy with crowds, ranting and violence within both nations, India and Pakistan, toward the other.

**I unilaterally would favor a common public schools curriculum for both Pakistan and India which teaches what these two great nations have in common instead of promoting via education radicalism and differences. The UN Education Directorate might help develop in common core courses for both nations public, and if practical, private school systems to use in this regard.

sir ,
you have really mentioned few very good points
but this things wont workout because here we are talking about INDIA and PAKISTAN and not just any hostile two nations.

untill kashmir issue is solved fully nothing will get better, and both the countries have came to far for anyone to compromise.

and to talk about common curriculum for reducing the hatred then i dont know how it is in pakistan but in INDIA we dont teach our children anything about INDIA-PAKISTAN relation or any wars. our school history is only till accession of INDIA. so our education system is not doing anything to spread hatred about pakistan. and i dont think there can be any common curriculum because they focus more on religion and we focus on making our next generations more and more secular.

 

[American Eagle]

Replying to several of your postings collectively:

1. Pakistan and India together have important natural resources, starting with Pakistan controlling major/key water flow/sources.

2. The Governor of Pakistan has repeatedly admitted terrorists infiltrating from Pak side to Indian side, in Kashmir but also elsewhere, to include the Bombay (old name I still like to use personally) suicide attack.

3. It has become very imporant to think "outside the box" and move away from long held anomosities and cliches.

4. If we older generation folks cannot move away from hostile attitude then the idea of more in common basic public education of what India and Pakistan do have in common might help younger generations to communicate better.

Bitterness and historic resentments are not easy to get around, but get around them everyone must for the sake of future generations there. You are our "world neighbors" in an ever shrinking world.

Reference to saving on national defense applies both to Pakistan and India if better bi-lateral relations can ever be achieved.

Trade refers to national trade between India and Pakistan, but it also refers to trying to revamp and pump up the almost non-existant economy of all parts of Kashmir, PAK, IAK, CAK. Right now simply being a youth from any part of Kashmir "marks" one horribly as perhaps being an unstable or a dangerous risk to be hired and/or trained into the business and economic world of the main nation, be it Pakistan or India, or China for that matter.

Economic progress has begun in that planned oil and gas pipelines will exist ere long from the Stans into Pakistan via Iran and if the crazies ever get in line with sane life also through Afghanistan via Pakistan to both India, other parts of Pakistan, but especially to the new Port of Gwadar.

It is the job of all three major governments, Pakistan, India, and China to lead the way in overcoming past obstances...it is not the job of individuals who harbor hatred or animosities to expect to singularly prevent or hinder such sorely needed progress.

We in the West literally hated wartime Japan, Germany, and Italy, and later the USSR. We and the rest of the world in the main long ago got over these bad events and memories. You all for your own national sake must learn to do the same thing, get over it.

I am only a well wisher and certainly not "the Emperor of the World." But at least I have served there.

And yes, I was treated well in then West Paksitan from 1963-1965. When the 1965 War broke out, and I was there then, things pretty much "collapsed" and all of sudden instead of being allies we were looked on as "spies" and "the enemy" which was ridiculous and absurd. But here again immature attitudies quickly surfaced, incited by in partiular Z. A. Bhutto, who had his own agenda and who lead the way into radical Islamic government actions such as his amended Pakistani Constitution and his rush to befriend a then worldwide hostile to all Western interests rabid old style Communist China.