Domestic & Social Crimes [Mob/ Vigilante justice] Thread

[kallol]

Thanks T-Faz.

Knowing more about each other creates more transparency and removes wrong knoweldege.

The rule :

Friendship is best evolved when we nurture the common interests and universal goodness. Pointing out what is wrong in others leads to hatred only - enemity only.

This is true at every level.

Encourage goodness in people, admire goodness and achievements of others. It brings out the best in the people / society / state / country.

 

[T-Faz]

Thanks T-Faz.

Knowing more about each other creates more transparency and removes wrong knoweldege.

The rule :

Friendship is best evolved when we nurture the common interests and universal goodness. Pointing out what is wrong in others leads to hatred only - enemity only.

This is true at every level.

Encourage goodness in people, admire goodness and achievements of others. It brings out the best in the people / society / state / country.

Yes you are correct, if only we appreciated each others commendable characteristics and worked together to improve any shortcomings we may have.

It would have been a whole different story by now. But what has not happened does not mean it would not happen in the future, if a few can start working for betterment today, then tomorrow will get better.

 

[qsaark]

I am failed to understand what is wrong in preventing the Qadyanis from using the word Islam? The able members, the SuperMods, the Think Tanks, are they better in their understanding of the issue of Finality, and the issue of using the name of Islam by the non-Muslims than the Prophet (PBUH) himself and the Khulafa Rashideen?

Were Uswad Ansi and Muselma Kazzab not killed? As you must know, during the last part of the life of Prophet Muhammed (PBUH), Uswad Ansi and Muselma Kazzab made false claims to Prophethood. Uswad Ansi was killed under the direct orders of Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) by Hazrat Feroze Dailmi Radi Allahu unhu in Yemen and after hearing this news, Muhammed (PBUH) had said "Last night, Uswad Ansi was killed – he was killed by a blessed person from the house of the blessed. He (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) was asked about the person who did this. He (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) said "Feroz did this – Feroz has succeeded (in hereafter).”

After Muhammed (PBUH) had passed away, Ameer ul Momineen Hazrat Abu Bakar ordered the Muslim troops to find and kill the Muselma Kazaab. Muselma Kazzab was killed along with some tens of thousands (about 28,000) of his followers in the battlefield of Yamama by the Muslim forces under the command of Khalid bin Waleed Radi Allahu unhu. About 1,200 Muslims also got martyred and this was the largest number of Muslims martyred in the last 10 years. Please note that the total number of Companions (Sahaba ajmaeen) martyred in Jehad during the ten years of Prophet’s (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) life in Medina is 259, whereas those martyred defending the cause of Finality of Prophethood against the apostates amount to 1200 – included amongst them are 70 Ahl e Badr (companions who took part in the battle of Badr), and 700 reciters and memorizers of Quran. This includes the Imam (Prayer Leader) of Quba Mosque, one of the four notable reciters (Salim Mola Huzaifa Radi Allahu unhu), elder bother of Hazrat Umer Radi Allahu unhu (Zaid bin Khattab Radi Allahu unhu), spokesman of Prophet Sallallahu Alahyi Wasallam (Sabit bin Qais bin Shammas Ansari Radi Allahu unhu) and prominent companions, Hazrat Tufail bin Umro and Huzaifa bin Yaman Radi-Allahu unhum.

This was the importance of the cause of Finality of Prophethood.

Strange is the fact though that even after mentioning about Uswad Ansi and Muselma Kazzab and what actions(s) was taken against them by no one else but the Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) himself, people are still arguing as if their intelligence and understanding of Islam is more than that of the Prophet (PBUH).

That was pretty much my last post on this matter because I can only argue with normal people, with people considering themselves more smarter, intelligent, humane, and knowledgeable than the Prophet Muhammed and Khulafa e Rashideen , perhaps only Allah can deal and deal he will InshaAllah.

Allama Iqbal's Jawab e Shikwa is a true statement of the situation of the majority of the present day Muslims and why they are dishonored every where in the world.

Dil se jo baat nikalti hai, asar rakhti hai,
Par nahin, taaqat-e-parwaaz magsr rakhti hai.
Qudsi-ul-asal hai, rif-atpe nazar rakhti hai,
Khaak se uthti hai, gardoon pe guzar rakhti hai.

Ishq tha fitna gar-o-sarkash-o-chalaak mira,
Aasman cheer gaya nala-e-bebaak mira.
Pir-e-gardoon ne kaha sun ke, kahin hai koi!
Bole sayyaare, sar-e-arsh-e-barin hai koi!

Chaand kahta tha, nahin, ahl-e-zamin hai koi!
Kahkashaan kahti thi, poshida yahin hai koi!
Kuchh jo samjha tau mere shikwe ko Ruzwan samjha,
Mujhe jannat se nikala hua insaan samjha.

Thi farishton ko bhi hairat, ke yeh aawaaz hai kya!
Arsh waalon pe bhi khulta nahin yeh raaz hai kya!
Taa sar-e-arsh bhi insaan ki tag-o-taaz hai kya?
Aa gai khak ki chutki ko bhi parwaaz hai kya?

Ghaafil aadaab se yeh sukkaam-e-zamin kaise hain,
Shokh-o-gustaakh yeh pasti ke makin kaise hain,
Is qadar shokh ke Allah se bhi barham hai,
Tha jo masjud-e-malaik yeh wohi Aadam hai?

Aalam-e kaif hai, dana-e-ramuz-e-kam hai,
Haan, magar ijaz ke asrar se namahram hai.
Naaz hai taaqat-e-guftaar pe insaanon ko,
Baat karne ka saliqa nahin nadaanon ko!

Aai aawaaz ghum-angez hai afsana tira,
Ashk-e-betaab se labrezhai paimana tira.
Shukr shikwe ko kiya husn-e-ada se tu ne,
Hum sakhun kar diyabandon ko khuda se tu ne.

Hum tau mayal ba-karam hai, koi sayal hi nahin,
Rah dikhlain kise rahraw-e-manzil hi nahin.
Tarbiat aam tau hai, jauhar-e-qabil hi nahin,
Jis se taamir ho aadam ki yeh who gil hi nahin.

Koi qabil ho tau hum shan-e-kai dete hain;
Dhoondne waalon ko duniya bhi nai dete hain!
Haath be-zor hain, ilhaad se dil khoo-gar hain,
Ummati baais-e-ruswai-e-paighamber hain.

But-shikan uth gaye, baaqi jo rahe but-gar hain,
Tha Brahim pidar, aur pisar Aazar hain.
Bada aasham naye baaqi naya khum bhi naye,
Harm-e-Kaaba naya, but bhi naye, tum bhi naye.

Who bhi din the ke yehi maya-e-raanai tha,
Naazish-e-mausim-e-gul lala-e-sahraai tha!
Jo Musalmaan tha Allah ka saudai tha,
Kabhi mehboob tumhara yehi harjaai tha.

Safah-e-dahar se baatil ko mitaya kis ne?
Nau-e-insaan ko ghulami se chhuraya kis ne?
Mere Kaabe ko jabeenon se basaya kis ne?
Mere Quran ko seenon se lagaya kis ne?

The tau aaba who tumhaare hi, magar tum kya ho?
Haath par haath dhare muntezir-e-farda ho!
Kya kaha? "bahr-e-musalmaan hai faqt waade-e-hur,"
Shikwa beja bhi kare koi tau laazim hai shaoor!

Adal hai faatir-e-hasti ka azal se dastur,
Muslim aaeen hua kafir tau mile hur-o-qasur;
Tum mein hooron ka koichahne wala hi nahin,
Jalwa-e-tur tau maujood hai, Moosa hi nahin.

Munfait ek hai is qaum ki, nuqsaan bhi ek,
Ek hi sab ka nabi, din bhi, imaan bhi ek,
Harm-e-paak bhi, Allah bhi, Quran bhi ek,
Kuchh bari baat thi hote jo musalmaan bhi ek!

Firqa bandi hai kahin, aur kahin zaaten hain.
Kya zamane mein panpaneki yehi baaten hain?
Jaa ke hote hain masaajid mein saf-aara tau gharib,
Zahmat-e-roza jo karte hain gawara tau gharib.

Naam leta hai agar koi hamara, tau gharib,
Pardah rakhta hao agar koi tumhara, tau gharib.
Umra nasha-e-daulat mein hain ghafil hum se,
Zinda hai millat-e-baiza ghurba ke dam se.

Shor hai ho gaye duniya se musalmaan naabood,
Hum yeh kahte hain ke the bhi kahin Muslim maujood?
Waza mein tum ho nisari, tau tamuddan mein Hanood,
Yeh musalmaan hain! Jinhen dekh ke sharmain Yahud?

**** ka ilm na bete ko agar azbar ho,
Phir pisar qabil-e-miraas-e-pidar kyonkar ho!
Har koi mast-e-mai-e-zauq-e-tan aasaani hai,
Tum musalmaan ho? Yeh andaaz-e-musalmaani hai?

Chaahte sab hain ke hon auj-e-surayya pe muqeem,
Pahle waisa koi paida tau kare qalb-e-salim!
Ahd-e-nau barq hai, aatish zan-e-har khirman hai,
Aiman is se koi sahra no koi gulshan hai.

Is nai aag ka aqwaam-e-kuhan eendhan hai,
Millat-e-khatam-e-rasal shoula ba parahan hai.
Dekh kar range-e-chaman ho na pareshan maali,
Kookab-e-ghuncha se shaakhen hain chamakne wali,

Khas-o-khashaak se hota hai gulistan khaali,
Gul bar andaaz hai khun-e-shuhda ki laali.
Rang gardoon ka zara dekh tau unnabi hai,
Yeh nikalte hue suraj ki ufaq taabi hai.

Nakhl-e-Islam namoona hai bro-mandi ka,
Phal hai yeh sainkron saalon ki chaman bandi ka.
Qaafila ho na sakega kabhi weeran tera,
Ghair yak baang-e-dara kuchh nahin samaan tera.

Nakhl-e-shama asti-o-dar should dood resha-e-tu,
Aaqbat soz bood saya-e-andesha-e-tu.
Ki Mohammed se wafa tu ne tau hum tere hain,
Yeh jahan cheez hai kya, lauh-eo-qalam tere hain.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

It is not highly personal matter otherwise a person of Iqbal's stature would have never requested the British Indian Government to declare Qadianis as a separate community:

"The best course for the rulers of India is, in my opinion, to declare the Qadianis a separate community".

Were Iqbal to make that demand in modern Pakistan, he would be wrong - wrong ethically and morally.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I am failed to understand what is wrong in preventing the Qadyanis from using the word Islam? The able members, the SuperMods, the Think Tanks, are they better in their understanding of the issue of Finality, and the issue of using the name of Islam by the non-Muslims than the Prophet (PBUH) himself and the Khulafa Rashideen?

It is wrong because it is an infringement on the rights and free speech of people belonging to the Ahmadi community.

No one as of yet has been able to make a case that the use of the word Islam or Muslim by Ahmadi's constitutes any sort of tangible harm to society.

Vague arguments about 'deceiving Muslims' etc. have been made that do not stand up to scrutiny since Ahmadi's are up front about their prophet after Muhammed, and the finality of prophethood with Muhammad is a central tenet of mainstream Islam, making it rather hard to argue that mainstream Muslims will somehow be 'deceived'.

Were Uswad Ansi and Muselma Kazzab not killed? As you must know, during the last part of the life of Prophet Muhammed (PBUH), Uswad Ansi and Muselma Kazzab made false claims to Prophethood. Uswad Ansi was killed under the direct orders of Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) by Hazrat Feroze Dailmi Radi Allahu unhu in Yemen and after hearing this news, Muhammed (PBUH) had said "Last night, Uswad Ansi was killed – he was killed by a blessed person from the house of the blessed. He (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) was asked about the person who did this. He (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) said "Feroz did this – Feroz has succeeded (in hereafter).”

Where in the Quran does it call for a State to reject the right of a community to call themselves what they wish?

The Hadith are not infallible, they are not the word of Allah, they are but collections of events as recollected by men, and as collections recollected by men, they are subject to being polluted by the biases and follies of men.

There is simply no moral, ethical or Quranic justification for discriminating against Ahmadis and preventing them from calling themselves what they want.

And this is not about adopting 'Western sensibilities', which is an argument of last resort used by those defending the indefensible - there is simply no rational argument in favor of discriminating against Ahmadis.

 

[Kompromat]

^^ Why is it all about what few Ahmadis want and why isn't it about what Muslims want ??

The Bottom line is , Qadiyanis are declared kafirs Thus they cannot call themselves Muslims it does not make any sense at all does it to you ?

If they can prove themselves that they are Muslims than they have every right to associate themselves with Islam but we all know they cant because they are Wrong !

They are like any other Minority ie Christians or Hindus thus they need to have their own ideantity and not to misuse ours .

Its like using someone else's Passport or ID card or Drivers license which is a crime , is it too hard to understand ?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

^^ Why is it all about what few Ahmadis want and why isn't it about what Muslims want ??

Because what Ahmadis are demanding does not take anything away from another community, it does not discriminate against another community, it does not prevent free speech by another community.

Demands by Muslims do all of the above.

The Bottom line is , Qadiyanis are declared kafirs Thus they cannot call themselves Muslims it does not make any sense at all does it to you ?

It does not make sense for the State to prevent Ahmadis from calling themselves what they wish to.

As for the various Muslim sects, they can continue to believe what they want about the Ahmadis and preach to their flock about them as they wish, so long as they are no preaching hatred, violence, prejudice and discrimination - especially by the State.

What you believe as an individual is your personal and private belief, do not impose it on others.

If they can prove themselves that they are Muslims than they have every right to associate themselves with Islam but we all know they cant because they are Wrong !

They should not have to prove anything about their faith to be treated equally by the State and be allowed to exercise their rights and freedoms. It is not the business of the State to determine who is a Muslim and who is not - that is up to Allah.

The various Islamic shools of thought are within their rights to declare Ahmadis non-Muslim, on a private level.

They are like any other Minority ie Christians or Hindus thus they need to have their own ideantity and not to misuse ours .

There is no 'misuse' here, they wish to call themselves Muslim because that is what they believe they are, and others do not (or shoudl not) have the right to force them to do otherwise.

Its like using someone else's Passport or ID card or Drivers license which is a crime , is it too hard to understand ?

That is a poor analogy - a passport or ID card being misused has serious potential repercussions for the individual in case of crime, ID theft etc.

The use of a particular label by a community does not have that impact on an individual (or should not at least). Where we do see the 'label of Muslim' being misused and having an impact on Muslims everywhere is through the actions of Muslims carrying out terrorism, which causes some to look at all Muslims suspiciously (which is not the right thing to do but is happening anyway), and there are no Ahmadi's involved in those acts are there?

 

[Patriot]

and then Muslims claim that French people are wrong in banning the burqa.

 

[thebrownguy]

and then Muslims claim that French people are wrong in banning the burqa.

Exactly thats the point! I am glad that there are people who agree on the fundamental hypocrisy of the topic.

 

[v9s]

The Hadith are not infallible, they are not the word of Allah, they are but collections of events as recollected by men, and as collections recollected by men, they are subject to being polluted by the biases and follies of men.

There is simply no moral, ethical or Quranic justification for discriminating against Ahmadis and preventing them from calling themselves what they want.

And this is not about adopting 'Western sensibilities', which is an argument of last resort used by those defending the indefensible - there is simply no rational argument in favor of discriminating against Ahmadis.

Wow. Thank you for that brilliant post.

It's time that Muslims woke up and realized that hadith are not to be taken as religious source but as a historical source only.

There are so many contradictions in the hadith it's not even funny.

 

[T-Faz]

It is wrong because it is an infringement on the rights and free speech of people belonging to the Ahmadi community.

No one as of yet has been able to make a case that the use of the word Islam or Muslim by Ahmadi's constitutes any sort of tangible harm to society.

Vague arguments about 'deceiving Muslims' etc. have been made that do not stand up to scrutiny since Ahmadi's are up front about their prophet after Muhammed, and the finality of prophethood with Muhammad is a central tenet of mainstream Islam, making it rather hard to argue that mainstream Muslims will somehow be 'deceived'.


Where in the Quran does it call for a State to reject the right of a community to call themselves what they wish?

The Hadith are not infallible, they are not the word of Allah, they are but collections of events as recollected by men, and as collections recollected by men, they are subject to being polluted by the biases and follies of men.

There is simply no moral, ethical or Quranic justification for discriminating against Ahmadis and preventing them from calling themselves what they want.

And this is not about adopting 'Western sensibilities', which is an argument of last resort used by those defending the indefensible - there is simply no rational argument in favor of discriminating against Ahmadis.

Excellent, simply brilliant point put forward by you. This should be the end of this thread now. Well done sir.

 

[zangi]

Brother, these innocent peoples are murdered only because of their faith and rest of the 100s you mentioned are not murdered / rapped / kidnapped for this

Everyday hundered's of kidnap rape and murder incidents happen in Pakistan and they do not come to Dawn news or mainstream media but they are burried forever.

something happens to a minority it becomes a big issue because they are minorities.. By having said that i am not denying that mistreatment with minorities does not exist but what i am worried about is that Why Minorities and mormal Pakistanis are treated differently and why normal Pakistanis do not get well deserved publicity ?

pope benedict starts talking about Christians under persecusion in Pakistan because he has been fed by BS propegenda of christian leader mr Bhatti who openly supports BLA and calls Pakistan a terrorist nation .

he is not being charged neither GOP has denied pope's allegations.
why dont people understand that the country is at war and no one speaks of 30 thousand innocent Pakistani civilians killed on the streets but they do talk about few Pakistani sikhs being kidnapped and killed or in this case ahmadis or christians.

The country belongs to everyone who calls himself a pakistani and when other fellow Muslims are paying sacrifices for Nation what is so wrong with minorities ?

They must understand it but if ahmadis feel that they are not safe here i guess their Masters and creators ie Brits and Canadians are quite welcoming to the enemies of Islam and they should leave this intollerent society.
regards

 

[kugga]

Look ppl i just want to say that Ahmadi's have a clear difference with muslims so they are not a sect of Islam.... and they also believe that what Islam says is totally different from their belief Islam does not allow a new prophet in the chain and as they have introduced a new prophet they cannot be termed as Muslims....

when they call themselves Msulims it hurts millions of muslims who know what ahmadis belief its state's responsibility to save the interests of its citizens and so as the state is doing if Pakistan were not muslim majority country the would have not declared non-muslims.... because in that case no body cares what ever they calls themselves but we care and we don't want others to misuse the name of our religion that is why we are against taliban because they are misusing the name our religion..

 

[Meesna]

when they call themselves Msulims it hurts millions of muslims

Why allow hijab or minarets or other Muslim practices in west when it hurts millions of westerners? You are actually justifying these restrictions. This list of restrictions on Muslims in west may even extend in future. Tomorrow some in west may demand ban on propagation of Islam as they deem it an extremist or anti-western religion not in line with western traditions. The far right BNP party has already declared that they will not allow building of any more mosques in UK if they came to power. I am guessing you will not have any problem with that. I don't see any difference in what you are saying and what these far right parties, who would completely ban Islam if it were up to them, stand for.

 

[T-Faz]

Look ppl i just want to say that Ahmadi's have a clear difference with muslims so they are not a sect of Islam.... and they also believe that what Islam says is totally different from their belief Islam does not allow a new prophet in the chain and as they have introduced a new prophet they cannot be termed as Muslims....

when they call themselves Msulims it hurts millions of muslims who know what ahmadis belief its state's responsibility to save the interests of its citizens and so as the state is doing if Pakistan were not muslim majority country the would have not declared non-muslims.... because in that case no body cares what ever they calls themselves but we care and we don't want others to misuse the name of our religion that is why we are against taliban because they are misusing the name our religion..

Great philosophy, so another sect claiming to be Muslim can hurt the 'feelings' of a Muslim majority based on their differences. May I ask how does it hurt your feelings, in what sense do you feel hurt by another sect claiming to be of your religion.

You contradict yourself because Taliban not only hurt your feelings, they kill and destroy but they have not been deemed as non Muslims. Why not brand them non Muslims first and then repeat this statement.

One final question for you and most other people, do you prefer to live with Ahmadies or such groups as the Taliban who follow the wahabi/salafi hardline sect. Which one would you term as a non Muslim through state passed law and remember, Ahmadies only hurt your feelings but if your faith is strong you can live with it whereas Taliban would bomb your family and then that would really hurt your sensitive feelings.