Does Pakistan Need Secularism?

[LEGENDARY WARRIOR]

So they are not inclined towards secular ideals either then.

And they do use religion for political leverage.

They are not secular then, are they?

Okay, first I would like to know that what do you understand by the term Secularism??

- - For me Secular is a state of being separate from religion. Which means you don't lead your life according to some religious teachings. Instead you follow what you think is right or wrong. OR in simple words you work for Worldly Gains. Now if someone uses religion for something that means he does not follow it but uses for his/her Worldly Gains = (SECULAR)

ITS THAT SIMPLE. .

 

[muse]

what does "secular" mean?

 

[cybertron]

A controversy has raged in Pakistan about whether Jinnah wanted Pakistan to be a secular state or an Islamic state. His views as expressed in his policy speech on August 11, 1947 said:

There is no other solution. Now what shall we do? Now, if we want to make this great State of Pakistan happy and prosperous, we should wholly and solely concentrate on the well-being of the people, and especially of the masses and the poor. If you will work in co-operation, forgetting the past, burying the hatchet, you are bound to succeed. If you change your past and work together in a spirit that everyone of you, no matter to what community he belongs, no matter what relations he had with you in the past, no matter what is his colour, caste or creed, is first, second and last a citizen of this State with equal rights, privileges, and obligations, there will be no end to the progress you will make. I cannot emphasize it too much. We should begin to work in that spirit and in course of time all these angularities of the majority and minority communities, the Hindu community and the Muslim community, because even as regards Muslims you have Pathans, Punjabis, Shias, Sunnis and so on, and among the Hindus you have Brahmins, Vashnavas, Khatris, also Bengalis, Madrasis and so on, will vanish. Indeed if you ask me, this has been the biggest hindrance in the way of India to attain the freedom and independence and but for this we would have been free people long long ago. No power can hold another nation, and specially a nation of 400 million souls in subjection; nobody could have conquered you, and even if it had happened, nobody could have continued its hold on you for any length of time, but for this. Therefore, we must learn a lesson from this. You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place or worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the State. We are starting in the days where there is no discrimination, no distinction between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste or creed and another. We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State. Now I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State. Jinnah, August 11, 1947 – presiding over the constituent assembly.

To be frank, Jinnah's Pakistan looks more like the present day india to me.

all these angularities of the majority and minority communities, the Hindu community and the Muslim community, because even as regards Muslims you have Pathans, Punjabis, Shias, Sunnis and so on, and among the Hindus you have Brahmins, Vashnavas, Khatris, also Bengalis, Madrasis and so on, will vanish.

This is exactly what's hapening in India. Every person is seizing to exist as the part of a particular community,religion or group and all these angularities as he suggested is vanishing.
I for one am hindu by birth but ready to believe jesus tomorrow and prophet the day after, and wud feel the least uncomfortable, and so is the case with most indians.
As another indian member said earlier in a secular state, one has his own personal god and no one can claim the other to be false in preaching his/her god/diety.

The constitution of Pakistan has yet to be framed by the Pakistan Constituent Assembly. I do not know what the ultimate shape of this constitution is going to be, but I am sure that it will be of a democratic type, embodying the essential principle of Islam. Today, they are as applicable in actual life as they were 1,300 years ago. Islam and its idealism have taught us democracy. It has taught equality of man, justice and fairplay to everybody. We are the inheritors of these glorious traditions and are fully alive to our responsibilities and obligations as framers of the future constitution of Pakistan. In any case Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic State to be ruled by priests with a divine mission.

Thats exactly the main concern. Jinnah never expected pakistan to become what it is now. He didnt expect the mullah's to rise to such power in the nation that they could hold the country to their ransom. A theocratic state was jinnah's worst fear and the nation just seems to be moving in the wrong direction.
Pakistani's should open their eyes and identify what qaid-e-azam jinnah wanted pakistan to be.
Hold his ideas high and no other nation could ever demean you and your nation.
i wish all pakistani's and the nation well.

 

[muse]

That's the problem right there - people don't even know what the word and concept mean -- they do know what the Saudi version of it is though - ladeeniyat - irreligiousness -- something that has nothing to do with "secular" which is ilmaniyat

 

[desioptimist]

Mr. that is the difference between other religions and Islam. Islam is not just a mere religion. It is a combination of Religion, Politics, Economics, War, Law and Order, rules of Family Life etc. . To call some country an Islamic State every thing in Islam must be followed. .

I know "Islam" is a special case. But after seeing what most Islamic countries are going through, dont you think you should adopt best practices of countries which you want to be like(unless of course you are happy about present situation), rather than make such "special case" pleading.

 

[LEGENDARY WARRIOR]

That's the problem right there - people don't even know what the word and concept mean -- they do know what the Saudi version of it is though - ladeeniyat - irreligiousness -- something that has nothing to do with "secular" which is ilmaniyat

so you are not secular right??

 

[T-Faz]

Okay, first I would like to know that what do you understand by the term Secularism??

- - For me Secular is a state of being separate from religion. Which means you don't lead your life according to some religious teachings. Instead you follow what you think is right or wrong. OR in simple words you work for Worldly Gains. Now if someone uses religion for something that means he does not follow it but uses for his/her Worldly Gains = (SECULAR)

ITS THAT SIMPLE. .

No man, Secular in regards to nations means that they do not interfere in religious matters, they remain neutral, they keep religion away from the state because if they favor one religion, sect or group, they could potentially undermine other citizens of the state.

On a personal level, you can follow or lead your life according to religious teachings in a secular state. Its up to you in such a state to either be religious or be an atheist and work towards worldly gains.

Secular means neutrality of the state in regards to religious matters, it does not interfere in religious matters and only does what is in the best interest of all their citizens, not just one group even if they are in the majority.

You can follow Islam to the fullest extent in a secular state because it will allow the freedom for you to do so but it will also allow members of other sects and religions to follow their ideology.

However none of them will have a bearing on the state.

But Pakistan can go for the England model, its a Christian country which practices secular ideals in the matter of governing a state.

 

[LEGENDARY WARRIOR]

I know "Islam" is a special case. But after seeing what most Islamic countries are going through, dont you think you should adopt best practices of countries which you want to be like(unless of course you are happy about present situation), rather than make such "special case" pleading.

Islam does not say to avoid adopting anything that comes from other non-Muslim countries. . As far as the situation of other countries is concerned; that is what we are debating about. There is no proper Islamic State. And that is what we (at least I) want Pakistan to be. .

 

[T-Faz]

Pakistan was found as a Secular state and the intelligentsia of the world agrees.

Pakistan is a republic of fables. Founded as a secular state but increasingly religious. Fiercely independent but reliant on aid. Nuclear armed but deeply insecure.

Osama's death and the Pakistani paradox - The Globe and Mail

The [objectives] resolution was "a clear move away from the secular aspirations expressed by" Muslim League's president and Pakistan's founder, Mohammad Ali Jinnah

Islam and Politics in Pakistan - Council on Foreign Relations

The British thought that Pakistan under the leadership of the secular lawyer Muhammad Ali Jinnah would turn out to be an acceptable counterbalance to an India led by Jawaharlal Nehru's Congress party.

But Jinnah was suffering from cancer at the time and died in September 1948, 13 months after partition. And Pakistan ever since has been -- well, let's say it has been a problem.

Articles & Commentary

What happened? Why has radical Islam become so entrenched in this supposedly secular Muslim state?

Articles & Commentary

The vision for a united Pakistan espoused by the Western-educated, secular founder of the country, Muhammah Ali Jinnah, evaporated when he died on September 11, 1948.

Why is there no revolt in Pakistan? | The Great Debate

Pakistan was originally founded in 1947 by Muhammad Ali Jinnah as a secular country

The American Spectator : Pakistan: The People Have Their Chance

The intelligentsia of the world unanimously agrees that Pakistan was meant to be a secular state, its founder was secular and religion was not supposed to play such a major part in this country.

Even Iqbals son said the same thing.

On the night of March 7, 2011, Justice (retd) Javid Iqbal was interviewed on a TV channel on the nature of the Pakistani state. He held that Pakistan, as envisaged by Jinnah, was to be a secular state. This is the package he has always accepted as the ‘modern Islamic state’ imagined by his father, Allama Iqbal, too.

Was Jinnah secular? – The Express Tribune

 

[desioptimist]

Islam does not say to avoid adopting anything that comes from other non-Muslim countries. . As far as the situation of other countries is concerned; that is what we are debating about. There is no proper Islamic State. And that is what we (at least I) want Pakistan to be. .

Oh no proper islamic state. No true muslim. No true scotsman.
We are not arguing about what islam says or not, for once remove your islamic glass ant debate what is right or wrong.
We are debating whether pakistan is a secular state is better than pakistan which has a state promoted religion.

Even after watching video and reading comments here, if you think being secular means everybody has to be atheist, I cant help you.
The panel members are arguing separation of religion from govt, if you want some urdu or arabic name(because secular word is confusing for you) some pakistani member can help in that.

 

[T-Faz]

To be frank, Jinnah's Pakistan looks more like the present day india to me.

Yes, when the Indian assembly was debating the development of their constitution, Jinnah was mentioned and so were his secular credentials.

Therefore it is up to to us to create a secular State. It would not be wrong for me to quote Mr. Jinnah in this connection, whatever, he might have said before Partition. He said: My idea is to have a secular State here.

Somebody asked : Religious or secular ?

He said: Hindus and Muslim are alike to me. They must have equal opportunities. I am trying to make a common nation for both of us. Why should our Muslim friends who owe allegiance to Mr. Jinnah and whom they revere as I do, think differently in this matter ? I am not prepared to call a single individual a minority. I do not like the word minority at all. Therefore I am saying that I am opposed to this amendment.

All individuals are at par. We cannot recognised religion as far as the State is concerned. I wonder if my friends who have suggested separate electorate for minorities would appreciate theremarks of a great leader of India. It is Mr. Jinnah who in his address to the Pakistan Assembly says:–

We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and ,equal citizens of one State. We would keep that in front of us as our ideal and in course of time you will find that in the political sense the Hindus will cease to be Hindus and Muslims will cease to be Muslims because religion in the personal faith of each individual. That is what the Governor-General of one of the parts of India says, Sir, he was known here to be the worst communalist, as it were,-but even he, when he takes, over the charge of a State, even he, when he takes up the reins of a communal State and the administration of a big country composed of Hindus and Muslims, he ways so. It is very well known that his State is a Muhammadan State and they are proud of its being Muhammadan and they proudly call it Pakistan; even in that State he says, religious will not be taken notice of by the State.

Every individual will be an individual and Hindus will lose their Hinduship as far as their political rights and privileges are concerned. I submit Sir, that even they are believers of oneness of their people. Why should we introduce this separatist tendency into our politics ? Sir, at another place the same very great leader says you are free to go to your temples and places of worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to one religion or caste or creed, that has nothing to do with the business of the State. I submit Sir. Constitution making is the business of the State Muhammadans as such have nothing to do with it They are here because they are citizens of India. We are one nation which stands for justice. We will legislate in a manner that will be a guarantee against all injustice. and we shall not recognise any sections. Sir, this amendment is not in keeping with the high principles we last adopted and which we have passed as resolutions in the past.”

Constituent Assembly Debate On 27 August, 1947

 

[LEGENDARY WARRIOR]

No man, Secular in regards to nations means that they do not interfere in religious matters, they remain neutral, they keep religion away from the state because if they favor one religion, sect or group, they could potentially undermine other citizens of the state.

On a personal level, you can follow or lead your life according to religious teachings in a secular state. Its up to you in such a state to either be religious or be an atheist and work towards worldly gains.

Secular means neutrality of the state in regards to religious matters, it does not interfere in religious matters and only does what is in the best interest of all their citizens, not just one group even if they are in the majority.

You can follow Islam to the fullest extent in a secular state because it will allow the freedom for you to do so but it will also allow members of other sects and religions to follow their ideology.

However none of them will have a bearing on the state.

But Pakistan can go for the England model, its a Christian country which practices secular ideals in the matter of governing a state.

Okay now that I know what you take Secular as:

- - The most important thing about Islam is that it is not just a religion. It is DEEN. And Deen is a combination of Religion, Moral Ethics, Politics, Law and Order, War, Foreign Affairs, Internal Affairs, Social System etc etc. .

To follow Islam you have to make an Islamic State (like Madina in times of Prophet Mohammad (S.A.W)). .

Religion is only one part. .

 

[desioptimist]

Why everything has to be sharia compliant and jinnah compliant to be adopted in pakistan.
Even if for arguments sake, jinnah wanted a theocratic state, the present situation does not stop pakistanis from doing what they think is right.

As a country, when situation changes, you should adopt to that change.
Many debate gets struck with such false arguments and all you end up is a bunch of quotes from quran and jinnah, each side using it to support their claim.

 

[LEGENDARY WARRIOR]

Oh no proper islamic state. No true muslim. No true scotsman.
We are not arguing about what islam says or not, for once remove your islamic glass ant debate what is right or wrong.
We are debating whether pakistan is a secular state is better than pakistan which has a state promoted religion.

Even after watching video and reading comments here, if you think being secular means everybody has to be atheist, I cant help you.
The panel members are arguing separation of religion from govt, if you want some urdu or arabic name(because secular word is confusing for you) some pakistani member can help in that.

I suggest you telly to post 132 too. . Islam cannot be seperated from state affairs. .

 

[desioptimist]

I suggest you telly to post 132 too. . Islam cannot be seperated from state affairs. .

You want an islamic secularism then.(whatever that means)
And all the debate henceforth will be based on quotes.