Does Pakistan Need Secularism?

[Ahmad Abdullah Ravian]

There are many Islamic principles which we see in practical shape in most western countries if we exclude wine and free sex..for example justice, less corruption, dedication, free health,better education etc

Are you sure, do you never read news some times of westerns not permitting Azans , sometimes not permitting constructing Masjid in an Area without any solid reason.
how can a muslim Family can live entirely in an Islamic way there ,will the outside Vulgar culture never disturb them ,their friends ,co-leagues, their parties, schools,colleges will upset their Islamic system
the Truth is that a specific area or Location always have an effect on your mind and Soul And Perhaps on your whole life
when you are in MACCAH (KA-ABA Shreef) your mind is different
and when you are in a N Club your views are Different
the same is the case for Pakistan and India
in India even there are large number of muslims but the major area of India is inappropriate for Muslims to live

 

[Kompromat]

Now its you who is mistaken.... "Shura" means "consultation" and not "parliament".

Wrong: Shura is a counsel of elected members which is also a "consultation and decision making body".

There was no concept of Parliament at that time.

Yes there was a concept of Parliament which had "elected" members through a process of election. In those days the way to do it was to have tribal leaders because of the tribal culture in Arabia . Whole tribe used to sworn allegiance to the leader which means that the tribe was content with his decisions and trusted his leadership.

Those leaders when converted to Islam along with their tribes became part of the islamic council and they did reflect the will of their people as the tribesmen were content with what their leaders decided after consulting those matters with the tribesmen before making decisions.

In those days the leaders were elected from both "ansaar" & "Muhajereen" reflecting both segments of the islamic society at that time and it also kept it strong and united.

Furthermore,the members of a Shura are 'selected' and not 'elected',totally defeating the basic foundation layer of democracy.

I have explained it above.

Also "Amir" does not mean a "Prime minister".Instead,"Wazir" means a minister while "Wazir-e-Azam" means a "grand minister" synonymous to "Prime minister".

Amir is the short of "Amir ul Momineen" also known as a "Caliph" -- Wazir isn't the word of arabic but its Persian. Amir or Caliph is the spiritual , Political leader of the country as well as the commander in chief.

Now tell me,who is the "Wazir-e-Azam" of Pakistan??? Do I have an answer??

Wazir - e - Azam in today's sense doesn't by any means equal an "Amir" or "Khalifa" as the current PM is not the spiritual head of the state.

 

[nForce]

Broad mindedness is not needed for secularism , it was a product of thousands of years of brutal church rule over christians who were made to pay taxes for pretty much everything including building churches.

Secularism was west's answer to the Church rule which wont work for muslims.

hey,there was no rule of chruch in India,and India is secular,and so is Pakistan's long time friend China,or Turkey or USA.The rule of church was mainly confined to europe only.
Secularism is perceived to be the best way forward for any modern state ,as it does not differentiate people on the basis of their religion and every body has equal rights.
In a state like Pakistan,this isnt the reality.Can a non-Muslim be President or Prime minister of Pakistan?? The answer is no??why not?? Is a non-muslim a second grade citizen in Pakistan??

 

[Kompromat]

Yaar... what are you guys discussing here....

Pakistan at present is not Secular.Period. ( Where people hail a murderer of a governor as a hero , because he defended the so-called Islam is laughable.)

In my opinion Pakistan should be secular. At the end of the day religion is very personal. As many people say , its between my God and me. I am a Hindu by birth , but don't really believe in orthodox kind of God. I have my own God and he has laid down various rules for me to follow. These have been borrowed from any source or religion that I have procured since my existence. I don't care if someone says that your God is false.Because my God is personal, I don't need to be upset if someone tries to belittle God.

The world and its citizens are gradually moving towards secular set of mind. Those who are not and are stuck is fundamentalism are not at peace. ( Look at most Islamic nations). Its better to treat everyone equally and please take some lines out of your religion that God is one and that one God is my God. There can be a trillion Gods , who cares , as long as people are at peace.

I dont understand a lot of Pakistani's . They are not enlightened and seem to have a gap which is filled by Conspiracy theories and Diversions. I suggest that an open minded approach will help Pakistan a lot. The citizens will truly feel liberated when they are growing economy and have compassion for every citizen of Pakistan ( & not just Islamic citizens of Pakistan).

No one asked for "your" opinion , you have no business about what we do in this country so you might wanna put a sock on it !

We have established a POV already about amending some laws where necessary to provide more protection to our 5% or less minority groups.

 

[Kompromat]

hey,there was no rule of chruch in India,and India is secular,and so is Pakistan's long time friend China,or Turkey or USA.The rule of church was mainly confined to europe only.
Secularism is perceived to be the best way forward for any modern state ,as it does not differentiate people on the basis of their religion and every body has equal rights.
In a state like Pakistan,this isnt the reality.Can a non-Muslim be President or Prime minister of Pakistan?? The answer is no??why not?? Is a non-muslim a second grade citizen in Pakistan??

A Non muslim doesn't reflect the 95% majority Muslim population & on top of that a non muslim cannot be the spiritual leader of an Islamic state thats why he/she cannot be a PM - period.

 

[nForce]

Wrong: Shura is a counsel of elected members which is also a "consultation and decision making body".


Yes there was a concept of Parliament which had "elected" members through a process of election. In those days the way to do it was to have tribal leaders because of the tribal culture in Arabia . Whole tribe used to sworn allegiance to the leader which means that the tribe was content with his decisions and trusted his leadership.

Those leaders when converted to Islam along with their tribes became part of the islamic council and they did reflect the will of their people as the tribesmen were content with what their leaders decided after consulting those matters with the tribesmen before making decisions.

I will agree with you,though partially.The "Shura" is indeed a body for Consultation,where the tribal leaders unite and consult each other.But the leaders of the tribes themselves are not elected representatives of the people.There has been no such incident of election of the tribal leader in the history of early days of Islam.democracy is an entirely new concept,which gradually started to take its present form only in the later part of 18th century.It is so,because,democracy also asks for clearly defined borders,a census of the people,and state welfare.

However some early forms of republic were present in ancient India.
You can take a look at the link if interested :REPUBLIC IN ANCIENT INDIA

 

[nForce]

A Non muslim doesn't reflect the 95% majority Muslim population & on top of that a non muslim cannot be the spiritual leader of an Islamic state thats why he/she cannot be a PM - period.

Now you are confusing between a religious leader and a political leader.On what basis the Prime Minister of the country is chosen,in Pakistan?How much pious he is??If that is the case,then each and every PM of Pakistan so far is a big failure.

 

[Kompromat]

Now you are confusing between a religious leader and a political leader.On what basis the Prime Minister of the country is chosen,in Pakistan?How much pious he is??If that is the case,then each and every PM of Pakistan so far is a big failure.

I am not confusing as i already have made my point and differentiated both concepts , its you suffering from short term memory loss.

 

[nForce]

I am not confusing as i already have made my point and differentiated both concepts , its you suffering from short term memory loss.

Please do enlighten this poor soul,in the context of how it is an absolute necessity for a person to be a muslim to be the head of the state.since when bureaucracy,politics and religion became the same thing?? Is the PM in Pakistan considered to be the "Caliph"??

It is a different story altogether that most of the Prime ministers of Islamic republic of Pakistan were not among the most pious followers of Islam.But then,we will talk about that later...

 

[Kompromat]

I will agree with you,though partially.The "Shura" is indeed a body for Consultation,where the tribal leaders unite and consult each other.

That is called Jirga !

But the leaders of the tribes themselves are not elected representatives of the people.

I think i have explained it before - the election process now would be carried out through electoral polls.

There has been no such incident of election of the tribal leader in the history of early days of Islam.democracy is an entirely new concept,which gradually started to take its present form only in the later part of 18th century.

How much do you know about Islam anyway , you are just wasting my time . Quraish Hashim are two prominent examples of those converts with some exceptions of clan leaders moving away.

It is so,because,democracy also asks for clearly defined borders,a census of the people,and state welfare.

Thats a modern concept - nothing against it in Islam.

However some early forms of republic were present in ancient India.
You can take a look at the link if interested :REPUBLIC IN ANCIENT INDIA

India is not relevant.

 

[Kompromat]

Please do enlighten this poor soul,in the context of how it is an absolute necessity for a person to be a muslim to be the head of the state.

How many times i would have to repeat that in a Muslim country run under Islamic law the Amir would also be a spiritual leader of the nation , how can a Hindu be the spiritual leader of Muslims ??

Can a Hindu or sikh become a pope ?

since when bureaucracy,politics and religion became the same thing?? Is the PM in Pakistan considered to be the "Caliph"??

Under current system NO !

It is a different story altogether that most of the Prime ministers of Islamic republic of Pakistan were not among the most pious followers of Islam.But then,we will talk about that later...

Agree with you.

 

[Karachiite]

Yes we do need secularism. Religion hasn't done anything for Pakistan in the last 63 years other then cause more bloodshed. But hey Im just a kaafir and follower of Quaid e Azam's vision what do I know. Better ask some fan of Jamat e Islami or Taliban.

 

[nForce]

That is called Jirga !



I think i have explained it before - the election process now would be carried out through electoral polls.



How much do you know about Islam anyway , you are just wasting my time . Quraish Hashim are two prominent examples of those converts with some exceptions of clan leaders moving away.

The jirga is an assembly of village elders and reflects the rituals of the Pashtun traditional assembly in which village and valley notables gather to discuss and resolve disputes and make collective decisions about important social issues.
Where as "shura" is a council and is limited to advisory activities only.The ruler can consult them,and the state is not ruled by them.anyways,neither in a "shura",nor in a "jirgah",the concept of election from grassroot level is present.
The two tribes that you mention were dominant tribes in and around Mecca at the time of advent of Islam.They did not have democratic elections to choose their own leaders.

Thats a modern concept - nothing against it in Islam.


India is not relevant.

Okay,no more side reading....

 

[nForce]

How many times i would have to repeat that in a Muslim country run under Islamic law the Amir would also be a spiritual leader of the nation , how can a Hindu be the spiritual leader of Muslims ??

Can a Hindu or sikh become a pope ?

since when bureaucracy,politics and religion became the same thing?? Is the PM in Pakistan considered to be the "Caliph"??

Under current system NO !

Amir is the short of "Amir ul Momineen" also known as a "Caliph" -- Wazir isn't the word of arabic but its Persian. Amir or Caliph is the spiritual , Political leader of the country as well as the commander in chief.
Wazir - e - Azam in today's sense doesn't by any means equal an "Amir" or "Khalifa" as the current PM is not the spiritual head of the state.

Now I am totally confused....I guess so are you....
If PM is NOT the spiritual head of the state then what is the absolute necessity of him being a Muslim??

I am not trying to undermine anybody here.I am merely pointing out that there is a lot of gap in the logic,which needs to be filled up,by someone...

 

[Kompromat]

Now I am totally confused....I guess so are you....
If PM is NOT the spiritual head of the state then what is the absolute necessity of him being a Muslim??

I am not trying to undermine anybody here.I am merely pointing out that there is a lot of gap in the logic,which needs to be filled up,by someone...

There is -- as per our constitution the head of the state has to be a Muslim but he wont be a spiritual leader in current state.