Does Pakistan Need Secularism?

[Kompromat]

I refuse to believe that Jinnah was so incompetent as to not have seen the inherent contradiction in this interpretation.

How can you be Islamic and secular at the same time?

Quaid wasn't secular.

Islam is About Life: Jinnah | PKKH.tv

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

Peoples don't realize that Pakistan is already secular with few exceptions.. for examples interests is forbidden in Islam and Pakistan is taking loans from world bank on interets and Pakistani banking system also based on interests. Again sharia laws is not fully implemented in Pakistan

 

[Ahmad Abdullah Ravian]

You get mixed signals if you read the different speeches of our Quaid. Its all depend on our interpretation of his speeches. secular peoples read his speeches and claim that he wanted Pakistani as secular state while religious peoples quote his some speech and claim that he wanted Pakistan to be based on Islamic principles with freedom, security and equal right for peoples of different faiths

o bhi Muslim you are and Pakistani
Please first clear your mind about ISLAM QUAID and Pakistan then comment

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

I refuse to believe that Jinnah was so incompetent as to not have seen the inherent contradiction in this interpretation.

How can you be Islamic and secular at the same time?

can you tell me Pakistan is secular or Islamic state right now? How you define "Secularism"?

---------- Post added at 08:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:15 AM ----------

o bhi Muslim you are and Pakistani
Please first clear your mind about ISLAM QUAID and Pakistan then comment

I am very much clear dude

 

[The HBS Guy]

Quaid wasn't secular.

Islam is About Life: Jinnah | PKKH.tv

The debate is not whether Jinnah was secular or not. There are some who say he was and some who say he wasn't. One interprets him according to one's intentions.

The debate is if Pakistan should be secular or not.

 

[Kompromat]

The debate is not whether Jinnah was secular or not. There are some who say he was and some who say he wasn't. One interprets him according to one's intentions.

The debate is if Pakistan should be secular or not.

Now you are contradicting yourself , Jinnah was a leader who lead a campaign to our independence , you said yourself that one can't be Islamic and Secular at the same time - i couldn't agree more !

Now stop fooling yourself.

 

[The HBS Guy]

can you tell me Pakistan is secular or Islamic state right now? How you define "Secularism"?

Pakistan is not a secular country at all.

Pakistan's constitution forbids a non-Muslim from becoming the PM/President and thereby leading the country, hence, relegating them to second-class-citizen status. The constitution implies that a non-Muslim is unfit to lead a country dominated by Muslims. This is not secularism.

Laws such as those on blasphemy which are regularly misused against non-Muslims also corroborate the view that Pakistan is neither a secular state nor a secular society.

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

A controversy has raged in Pakistan about whether Jinnah wanted Pakistan to be a secular state or an Islamic state. His views as expressed in his policy speech on August 11, 1947 said:

There is no other solution. Now what shall we do? Now, if we want to make this great State of Pakistan happy and prosperous, we should wholly and solely concentrate on the well-being of the people, and especially of the masses and the poor. If you will work in co-operation, forgetting the past, burying the hatchet, you are bound to succeed. If you change your past and work together in a spirit that everyone of you, no matter to what community he belongs, no matter what relations he had with you in the past, no matter what is his colour, caste or creed, is first, second and last a citizen of this State with equal rights, privileges, and obligations, there will be no end to the progress you will make. I cannot emphasize it too much. We should begin to work in that spirit and in course of time all these angularities of the majority and minority communities, the Hindu community and the Muslim community, because even as regards Muslims you have Pathans, Punjabis, Shias, Sunnis and so on, and among the Hindus you have Brahmins, Vashnavas, Khatris, also Bengalis, Madrasis and so on, will vanish. Indeed if you ask me, this has been the biggest hindrance in the way of India to attain the freedom and independence and but for this we would have been free people long long ago. No power can hold another nation, and specially a nation of 400 million souls in subjection; nobody could have conquered you, and even if it had happened, nobody could have continued its hold on you for any length of time, but for this. Therefore, we must learn a lesson from this. You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place or worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the State. As you know, history shows that in England, conditions, some time ago, were much worse than those prevailing in India today. The Roman Catholics and the Protestants persecuted each other. Even now there are some States in existence where there are discriminations made and bars imposed against a particular class. Thank God, we are not starting in those days. We are starting in the days where there is no discrimination, no distinction between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste or creed and another. We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State. The people of England in course of time had to face the realities of the situation and had to discharge the responsibilities and burdens placed upon them by the government of their country and they went through that fire step by step. Today, you might say with justice that Roman Catholics and Protestants do not exist; what exists now is that every man is a citizen, an equal citizen of Great Britain and they are all members of the Nation. Now I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State. Jinnah, August 11, 1947 – presiding over the constituent assembly.

While this may seem to be an indication that Jinnah wanted a secular state, he also referred to Islam and Islamic principles:

The constitution of Pakistan has yet to be framed by the Pakistan Constituent Assembly. I do not know what the ultimate shape of this constitution is going to be, but I am sure that it will be of a democratic type, embodying the essential principle of Islam. Today, they are as applicable in actual life as they were 1,300 years ago. Islam and its idealism have taught us democracy. It has taught equality of man, justice and fairplay to everybody. We are the inheritors of these glorious traditions and are fully alive to our responsibilities and obligations as framers of the future constitution of Pakistan. In any case Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic State to be ruled by priests with a divine mission. We have many non-Muslims — Hindus, Christians, and Parsis — but they are all Pakistanis. They will enjoy the same rights and privileges as any other citizens and will play their rightful part in the affairs of Pakistan. Broadcast talk to the people of the United States of America on Pakistan recorded February, 1948.

 

[The HBS Guy]

Now you are contradicting yourself , Jinnah was a leader who lead a campaign to our independence , you said yourself that one can't be Islamic and Secular at the same time - i couldn't agree more !.

You don't understand the point, do you?

We are not discussing whether Pakistan is Secular or not, we both know that it is not.

We are discussing whether Pakistan SHOULD BE secular or not.

 

[Kompromat]

@HBS Guy: Pakistan is Islamic or Secular is none of your business , you better worry about your Bharat mata and let us worry about our country.

 

[Kompromat]

You don't understand the point, do you?

We are not discussing whether Pakistan is Secular or not, we both know that it is not.

We are discussing whether Pakistan SHOULD BE secular or not.

Why is it your business anyway ? --- for the recored , we never made Pakistan to be secular and it never will be a secular country.

 

[The HBS Guy]

@HBS Guy: Pakistan is Islamic or Secular is none of your business

Your business is our business.

---------- Post added at 08:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:54 AM ----------

Why is it your business anyway ? --- for the recored , we never made Pakistan to be secular and it never will be a secular country.

That's your opinion which you have total right to possess.

 

[nForce]

Present Pakistan is neither Islamic nor secular. What Pakistan need actually depend on the needs of majority of its peoples. If i assume that Pakistan need secularism then there was no need for Muslims to ask for separate land Pakistan on basis of two nation theory because they could have share common secular state with India.

I personally don't mind living in either truly Islamic or truly secular state. The only disadvantage for secular state is that you get your religion limited to your personal life. I guess secularism is best option for multicultural society where there is not domination of one particular belief

You have raised a good question indeed.If Pakistan has to become a secular state,then what was the need for the Muslims to ask for a separate state.
Now many people may debate on the question whether the Muslims actually needed a separate state or not.Let us go beyond that question.Let us,accept,even if for the sake of argument that a separate state was necessary.
Now,where does secularism come in to play? See,secularism means ,equality for every religion from the point of view of the state.That means,if the Muslims as a religious sect are endangered or threatened,then it is very well justified to take necessary actions to safe guard the interest of the Muslims.Secularism does not mean that you will ignore the necessities of the people.It means equality.
Now,think about this.food for thought-A separate state is created for the Muslims,which is going to safeguard Muslim and Muslim interest only.But then,still there are other religious sects present in Pakistan.So,going by this very same theory of separatism,would not it be right and justified if all of a sudden the Christian,Hindu and Sikh minorities inside Pakistan stand up and ask for a separate state??then come the Ahmadi,Hazara,there are even various sects within Islam itself.Now,if the claim for separatism on the basis of religious differences is valid once,then it is valid for any other case as well.

If it goes on in this way,then at one point of time,people will find themselves totally divided,and bonded to a narrow minded mentality.People have to grow up beyond this.After all ,everybody is a human being.

 

[Ahmad Abdullah Ravian]

Peoples don't realize that Pakistan is already secular with few exceptions.. for examples interests in forbidden in Islam and Pakistan is taking loans from world bank on interets and Pakistani banking system also based on interests. Again sharia laws is not fully implemented in Pakistan

pakistan is both Secular and Islamic
na DEEN ke rahe na Dunya ke
Sir history Parhen
when Tereek-e-Pakistan was going on Secular-Islamic Ulama joined Congress and Full-Islamic joined Quiad and Muslim League
in our first Assembly ,there was a good number of Ulamas in there and with there hard work and involvement our first CONSTITUTION is totally Islamic ,this is the Paper we are Proud of, it is compulsory for Govt as said by that Paper to Follow that "KIRARDD-e-MAQASID" in every future constitution!
now all the remaining history of Pakistan shows that Govt and Political Parties changed constitutions for their own purposes and Ease
but still now they are not able to totally change the Pakistanis minds They knew their true Identity ,their ultimate Path they knew that our country is

ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF PAKISTAN​

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

Pakistan is not a secular country at all.

Pakistan's constitution forbids a non-Muslim from becoming the PM/President and thereby leading the country, hence, relegating them to second-class-citizen status.

Do you know the total population of Muslims Pakistan? So if a non muslim don't become the prime minister of pakistan that mean non Muslim will be treated as second class citizen. You mean Muslims and Hindus living in Britain are second class citizens

The constitution implies that a non-Muslim is unfit to lead a country dominated by Muslims. This is not secularism.

Its because 97 % population of Pakistan is Muslims....rule of majority(democracy)

Laws such as those on blasphemy which are regularly misused against non-Muslims also corroborate the view that Pakistan is neither a secular state nor a secular society.

So you say that secular countries should not have blasphemy laws and peoples should have freedom to mock and insult the religion of each others