Does PA have these weapons/tactics which have been successfully deployed in Ukraine?

[Signalian]

Apologies if this has been discussed elsewhere, but I was watching this video...

https://videos.dailymail.co.uk/video/mol/2023/01/05/8005814337948172437/1024x576_MP4_8005814337948172437.mp4

... about the weapons used in Ukraine that turned the tide of the war for the Ukrainians.

The 3 listed in this video are;

1. Javelin/NLAW
2. HIMARS
3. Artillery coordinated by drones

My question is - does PA have thier own equivalent?

PA has forces available to undertake offensives against enemy forces. These are division, brigade and ad hoc level armored forces which Ukraine doesn't have. Secondly, PA has active aviation arm in the form of manned and un manned weapons delivery systems.

The ATGM system you mentioned is good for defending a location against enemy armor or ambushing enemy armor. MLRS or HIMARs are good against enemy stationary forces, depots or bases. Artillery can help in many ways, even tank plinking with correct ammunition or denying enemy capability to operate in a certain zone. However, since drones can be shot down and satellites are expensive to operate to provide resources for all sectors in a war, so the suitable option comes out as Stratospheric balloons. These are high-altitude balloons useful for surveillance missions. Their low cost and ability to operate for days while staying out of reach of enemy aircrafts and SAMs, makes them invaluable. Probably a missile in terms of ASAT capability is needed to bring them down.

As for tactics, Indian Army is mobile and poised for Corps Level armored operations, if it can manage. Still, Indian Army knows that Pakistan Army will keep throwing in ad hoc/harassing forces to throw its major armored offensive off balance. One Pakistani commander did that twice, each time in 1965 and 1971. In 1965 he led a lone armored regiment to blunt advance of Indian Army's 1st Armored Division, while in 1971 now promoted Brigadier, he formed a force (Changez force) of some ~80 MBTs and 50 APCs and harassed an Infantry Division that it couldn't achieve its objective. Changez force kept losing MBTs during course of war but it done what it was intended to do by the end of war. A smaller mobile force which forms hit and run tactics is manageable and effective.

Basically what Pakistan can put to offset armored offensive by India is shown below:

Use any combination of that wherever required.
1. MLRS
2. MBT
3. C4I
4. SP Arty
5. ATGM carrier
6. Radar (for SP AD)

and then these:

1. NASR ( but there is also HATF-1/2/3 which are short range ballistic missiles with/without nuclear payload)
2. UCAV
3. Gunship with ATGM

Use a combination of above forces. Keep flanking enemy from sides using mobile forces which hit the enemy and then retreat. Send UCAVs to take out enemy supply trucks, support trucks, fuel trucks, ammunition trucks etc. Without proper logistics, armored forces crumble. Deceive the enemy by making them think that they will be expecting a larger defensive force. When the attack starts, take out 1/3 of enemy armored assets (a troop (4 tanks) in a squadron (12-15 tanks), a squadron (12-15 tanks) in a regiment (45-59 tanks) and so on). Enemy is forced to recalculate again and again over continuing the attack, sending in more forces, holding ground or retreating.

Enemy starts an offensive and if UCAV's or Gunships or mobile armored forces takes out 1/3 of its force before it makes contact with defensive force initially assigned to bear the onslaught, the enemy has lost the edge already and now defensive forces will stand a better chance of defensing own region.

Ukrainian-Russian war is different from India-Pakistan scenario.

but imagine the poor infinitary having to carry a TOW around or HJ8.

 

[khansaheeb]

Pakistan needs focus on sophisticated camouflage on all equipment so that it is undiscernible to the eyes in the sky.

 

[Path-Finder]

View attachment 913799

that system is bulky and heavy, you need a few people to carry it. when more infantry friendly systems exist

 

[undercover JIX]

Ukraine is not fighting this war, this is USA and NATO war.

Ukraine has just replaces Afghanistan.

 

[Sayfullah]

PA has forces available to undertake offensives against enemy forces. These are division, brigade and ad hoc level armored forces which Ukraine doesn't have. Secondly, PA has active aviation arm in the form of manned and un manned weapons delivery systems.

The ATGM system you mentioned is good for defending a location against enemy armor or ambushing enemy armor. MLRS or HIMARs are good against enemy stationary forces, depots or bases. Artillery can help in many ways, even tank plinking with correct ammunition or denying enemy capability to operate in a certain zone. However, since drones can be shot down and satellites are expensive to operate to provide resources for all sectors in a war, so the suitable option comes out as Stratospheric balloons. These are high-altitude balloons useful for surveillance missions. Their low cost and ability to operate for days while staying out of reach of enemy aircrafts and SAMs, makes them invaluable. Probably a missile in terms of ASAT capability is needed to bring them down.

As for tactics, Indian Army is mobile and poised for Corps Level armored operations, if it can manage. Still, Indian Army knows that Pakistan Army will keep throwing in ad hoc/harassing forces to throw its major armored offensive off balance. One Pakistani commander did that twice, each time in 1965 and 1971. In 1965 he led a lone armored regiment to blunt advance of Indian Army's 1st Armored Division, while in 1971 now promoted Brigadier, he formed a force (Changez force) of some ~80 MBTs and 50 APCs and harassed an Infantry Division that it couldn't achieve its objective. Changez force kept losing MBTs during course of war but it done what it was intended to do by the end of war. A smaller mobile force which forms hit and run tactics is manageable and effective.

Basically what Pakistan can put to offset armored offensive by India is shown below:

View attachment 913795

Use any combination of that wherever required.
1. MLRS
2. MBT
3. C4I
4. SP Arty
5. ATGM carrier
6. Radar (for SP AD)

and then these:

1. NASR ( but there is also HATF-1/2/3 which are short range ballistic missiles with/without nuclear payload)
2. UCAV
3. Gunship with ATGM

Use a combination of above forces. Keep flanking enemy from sides using mobile forces which hit the enemy and then retreat. Send UCAVs to take out enemy supply trucks, support trucks, fuel trucks, ammunition trucks etc. Without proper logistics, armored forces crumble. Deceive the enemy by making them think that they will be expecting a larger defensive force. When the attack starts, take out 1/3 of enemy armored assets (a troop (4 tanks) in a squadron (12-15 tanks), a squadron (12-15 tanks) in a regiment (45-59 tanks) and so on). Enemy is forced to recalculate again and again over continuing the attack, sending in more forces, holding ground or retreating.

Enemy starts an offensive and if UCAV's or Gunships or mobile armored forces takes out 1/3 of its force before it makes contact with defensive force initially assigned to bear the onslaught, the enemy has lost the edge already and now defensive forces will stand a better chance of defensing own region.

Ukrainian-Russian war is different from India-Pakistan scenario.


View attachment 913799

Would having highly mobile atgm teams on a light vehicle like ATV’s for harassing enemy forces even deep inside enemy territory be worth it? Or does M113 equipped with atgm do it better? During the Ukraine war there have been images of atgm teams mounted on ATV’s. This would make them highly mobile and much more stealthy. But would it be feasible for a Pakistan India war or not?

 

[Sayfullah]

Deceive the enemy by making them think that they will be expecting a larger defensive force. When the attack starts, take out 1/3 of enemy armored assets (a troop (4 tanks) in a squadron (12-15 tanks), a squadron (12-15 tanks) in a regiment (45-59 tanks) and so on). Enemy is forced to recalculate again and again over continuing the attack, sending in more forces, holding ground or retreating.

Hit and Run Tactics combined with tactical retreat and then a surprise major offensive would deceive the enemy into defeat. Sending forces to do Hit and Run attacks until enemy gets annoyed and then give them an opportunity to chase after the harassment force, giving the enemy the illusion that it can finish them off and they have the momentum but bring them to an already planned area where the real force is waiting to ambush. Once enemy is in a designated area obliterate them. Or modify the plan to have 2 forces. 1/3 of the force carries out an attack on the enemy and fights but retreats making it look like it lost. Fight and retreat in such a way that the enemy chases the retreating force to a pre designated area. Then use the remaining 2/3 force for a major ambush that catches the enemy heavily off guard.

 

[PanzerKiel]

Would having highly mobile atgm teams on a light vehicle like ATV’s for harassing enemy forces even deep inside enemy territory be worth it? Or does M113 equipped with atgm do it better? During the Ukraine war there have been images of atgm teams mounted on ATV’s. This would make them highly mobile and much more stealthy. But would it be feasible for a Pakistan India war or not?

ATV mounted ATGMs are already in service with us for more than a decade now.

 

[nahtanbob]

Pakistan has a large number of TOW-2. completely forgot. Problem is mobility, TOW & HJ8 are heavy and not mobile. need a mobile system.

I thought TOW missiles weighed around 50 pounds

 

[Genghis khan1]

Big backers

View attachment 909516

Comedian was put in office by west to use Ukraine as a shield against Russia. I guess Comedian didn’t expected this.

 

[Foinikas]

Comedian was put in office by west to use Ukraine as a shield against Russia. I guess Comedian didn’t expected this.

The people wanted a leader who plays piano with his dick. They got him. Now he asks for nuclear war and they cheer for him.

 

[CLUMSY]

I assume TOWs and other ATGMs are primarily only used by mech infantry because i dont see how you could carry those things on foot.
I guess thats also another reason we need IFVs. They play a vital role within a mech squad providing solid anti tank and anti personnel capability with ATGMs and the autocannon, pretty much eliminating the need for a man portable ATGM in the squad

 

[farooqbhai007]

I assume TOWs and other ATGMs are primarily only used by mech infantry because i dont see how you could carry those things on foot.
I guess thats also another reason we need IFVs. They play a vital role within a mech squad providing solid anti tank and anti personnel capability with ATGMs and the autocannon, pretty much eliminating the need for a man portable ATGM in the squad

What do u mean "I assume" did u even bother to read a single post in the previous pages. TOW & HJ8 are all purely vehicle mounted either on Talha/M113 or Landrovers. For infantry level PA has Kornets and Milans supported by Alcotan.

 

[Path-Finder]

For infantry level PA has Kornets and Milans supported by Alcotan.

Is it confirmed that Kornet are in service? Milan not too sure about other than hearsay. Alcotan has some suspicious circumstances surrounding it.

 

[farooqbhai007]

Is it confirmed that Kornet are in service? Milan not too sure about other than hearsay. Alcotan has some suspicious circumstances surrounding it.

lol. Really dude.

This is from the 2017-18 yearbook. 52 Launchers of Kornet-E , 369 Launchers of VOSEL M2 Sights (for Alcotan Missiles). This is was the first batch for both these systems. Atleast one followup batch appeared for the Kornet in another year book, while 2 more batches have appeared for the Alcotan in year books uptil 2020 i think. Since after that they stopped publishing info. So its safe to presume atleast 1k+ VOSEL (Alcotan) are in service with number of missiles significantly more. And Alcotan have appeared in quite alot of vids if you know where to look.
Secondly source for Milan is Panzerkiel who said Milan had been acquired a few years back in large numbers for infantry units.

 

[Sayfullah]

Pakistan should get ToT for Alcotan and produce them in Pakistan in large numbers