Does India have a history of 10000 years?

[TISSOT]

The difference is that Britain united India. If it's not for the British, India would be divided like Africa is today.

Communism united china so its German who created china. lol. Thank you karl marx your hero.

Or did Lenin did that ? so maybe Russia created china. If not for them, china would be divided as africa today.

 

[Alternative]

There are a total of 31 rivers mentioned in the Rg veda. What is so special about the rivers of punjab ? Nothing.


Nothing special about the septa sindhu either. The vedas are not a lesson in history or geography. Its a religious text in which the rivers are mentioned.



The names of the river mentioned in the Rg. veda does not even match the current names of the rivers you claim. The mapping is a total guess work.

Sapta Sindhu was special because to this region the Vedas are attribute to, where the Vedas originated from; after deep meticulous studies, and agree upon; and it represent the area of influence of vedic culture then.

If sapta sindhu, as I claim is not five rivers of Punjab alongwith Indus and Saraswati (also known as Ghagar Hakra) then what is?

The oldest book in south India is the Agattiyam written by Rshi Agastya of the Vedic period. Not 100 BC.

Agattiyam a book from Sangam Period of Tamil literature is not older than first century B.C.

There is nothing modern about the Saptarsi calendar since it was abandoned for the Kali Calendar from 3102 BC. But the details of measurement is provided in several Puran's. The shifting of stars due to precession was observed and forms the basis of this calendar. It even gives a time frame of 27,000 years for one cycle which is incredibly close to the modern day measurement of 25,800 year.s

Precession of Earth was known from ancient times to both astronomers and astrologers; and yet Yugas were defined with monstrous figure of billions, or millions of years:

And what happened at the end of Chatur Yuga?.... Answer is Pralaya: destruction, annihilation, The End.

Your Saptarsi calendar don’t seem to take into account Pralaya…. However, as you claim it to be very old… Please provide a reference from any Purana or other ancient source.

As mentioned earlier, Bharat Varsha referred to the entire Indian subcontinent.

Bharat Varsha was not referred to entire subcontinent in older times, as I demonstrated earlier.

Since there is no such thing as "aryan" race, there is no movement of them either. Neither eastward, nor westward nor to the south or north. I refuse to give legitimacy to this foolish theory.

Refuse as much as you like; Facts are facts.

Existence of horse men hunting a Giraffe and Elk speaks for itself since both could not have survived in India after 6000 BC.

A more appropriate time frame would be 1500 B.C. than before 5000. B.C without elucidating how many millennia before ... ... 10,000BC or 15,000 B.C. ............... and supported by wild claims the ecosystem change and animal, elk and giraffe got extinct...
Drawing of ELK that you posted shows many bovidaes with a pair of horn, and one in center will antlers, which could be Barasingha or Sambar: In Chinese mythology there are creatures resembling giraffes, buts these are considered just mythological creatures.
Why to draw fantastic claims on flimsy references.......

Do you see how absurd the argument is ?

Harapan horse myth has been debunked my main stream Archaeologists, with conclusive studies over many decades, contributed by hundreds from many nationalities
The re-writers of history need a horse in IVC, simply because Vedic Culture depended on Horse and chariots;....
And these re-writers of history are proclaiming that IVC is the Vedic Culture.............. Which is absolutely isn't.

Insignificant amount of migration always takes place in history and happens all over the world, not enough to change the culture of any land. The migrants adapt the culture of the majority, not the other way around.

You are assuming that subcontinent remained almost unchanged over long period of times, despite the invasions of Dravidians, Aryans, Greeks, Scythians, Huns,Turkic nations etc.

Languages, cultures, belief system, customs etc. all changed of affected greatly.

There is no mention of any invasion in any of the purans, or ithias in Hinduism. So this whole thing is a fantasy.

Semi mythical records don't judge the archaeological and lisguistic studies, it is the other way round.

The land of Bharat was identified by the rulers of the land, not by the people. The same way Egypt was the land of the Pharaohs.

Details of the Jathi's were never recorded in ANY Hindu text due to the prevalence of Varna as the predominant factor. So the books talk about the roles and responsibilities of various Varna's not of their jaathis.

I am lost to what you are trying to convey.

So tribal history was never part of Indian tradition, unlike Abhrahamic religion.

The problem arose when people of abrahamic religion tried to interpret Indian history through their own prejudice and colored lens of Tribal history.

History has nothing to do with religion; in ancient India every thing was steeped in religious dictates, result is Puranas; where myth can't be separated from history. A work can either be a religious text or a history book, but it can be both.

Usual practice is to archaeological and linguistic studies are used to discern the history or mythology: It is not other way round are is your modus oprendi.

What part is fake ? the carbon dating process ? or the discover ?

I live in Lahore; and if visit Taxila, get a statue from 2 B.C. and claim that i came from my backyard;
How would Archaelogy would take this discovery?
If someone dig up Colosseum and bones of tiger are found; How the Archaeology would take that discovery?

A piece of wood found on water, tantamount to nothing if not considered in right context, associated historical timeline, anthropological factors etc. etc.

A whole lot of invaluable documents were destroyed during the successive Islamic invasion. It is a testimony to our civilization values and strength that we resisted the deliberate attempt to destroy our culture and history for almost 1,400 years.

Few correction are in order here, as other party @Sanchez is no longer interested;

Invaluable document were destroyed by inherent element of secrecy, that ancients in this part of world exercised, for almost every branch of knowledge: Result was whole warfare, weapons knowledge lost; medical knowledge lost... no one know many plant mentioned in charak or susrita samhita, uncountable numbers of arts and crafts lost; books upon books lost.............
Muslims actually learned and help to spread the knowlege, so did the British.
In south where the effect of Muslim Conquest was minimal, same thing happened with ancient books and Knowledge.

Despite this we have prevailed. Its only the Himalayas and the taklanmaklan desert that saved your civilization from a similar fate.

So why did Chinese build the Great Wall? thousand of miles long:
China was subject to innumerable invasions from time memorable, just like subcontinent.

Our civilization success was its own enemy, drawing the worst of humanity towards us. Yet so deep rooted is our cultural values than even a thousand years is not enough to wipe a fraction of it away from our racial memory.

How long did it take Mao to wipe out your values ?

Your deep rooted cultural values changed a number of times in last millennia:
Just compare cultural values in cities during last 30 years, then and now.

English is associated with Christianity, yet their word for a male human does not come from christianity but from the Hindu first man called "Manu".

Man word don't came from Hindu, but from the common ancestral language of Indo-European family of languages, please.

Similarly Hindi is associated with Hinduism, yet the word for a male commonly used comes from the abrahamic religions first man called "Adam", the word being "Aadmi"

Hindi is a 19th century concoction by British; an amalgamate of Urdu and Hindustani with lots of vocabulary borrowed from Sanskrit. Don't draw fanciful conclusion, please.

 

[Alternative]

Britain divided India into pakistan and Bangladesh. It divided into 600 free kingdoms.

Sardar Vallabhai Patel united India and created it.

I was just imitating you and grabbing stuff from my rear and serving it as the good stuff. Japan and Mongolia created china and Europe created modern china by inventing communism.

British conquered Subcontinent piecemeal; independent states were defeated and made of British empire, some states who acceded were recognized as princely independent states;
Before British subjugation, there was sense of nationhood in Subcontinent, All considered themselves independent till subjugated by other, so continuous wars to win over as mush territory as possible; With some degrees of success to select few:
British Subjugation changed this, when British address all as..............oh you bloody Indians;
All and sundry then started to recognize as themselves as Indians.

When time to go back for British came , then the political scene was fundamentally different; so instead giving governance back from the where they had take, they choose to hand over the governments to elected people, except for the hundreds of independent princely states as it should be clear that these were independent and were not part of package deal.

Sardar Vallabhai Patel and Nehro, thought better of it and grab hold all such states, using military power where necessary, made a part of new Indian state.
Indian nationhood resulted form the British actions in Subcontinent.

 

[TISSOT]

Sapta Sindhu was special because to this region the Vedas are attribute to, where the Vedas originated from; after deep meticulous studies, and agree upon; and it represent the area of influence of vedic culture then.

This is a common misunderstanding due to the ignorance of a western christian who translated the Vedas without any significant knowledge of sanskrit, or the purpose of the Vedas.

All the 31 rivers in the Vedas belong to the region that's defined as Bharat varsh.

Your claims come from the 'Nadi Stuti' of the Rg veda which is a general respect of River. This is the original meaning of the text,

"Some good words on the great waters glory, this poet recites in the Vivasvat hall. They flow, seven each, in each of the three domains, bestrewing the earth with riches, the brilliant rivers.

Our prayer to you oh rivers, as you flow along Varuna’ s path, as you speedily advance your waters. Please overflow the land surface, this year, the earth’s surface is unduly parched.

In the daytime, we bathe in you, when the Sun’s heat has increased all over the earth. During rainy days, you become full bodied with rain water, enough to keep us from crying (for water) for the rest of the year.

From you, o' rivers, mothers go bring flowing water for their children to drink. Kings, before battles, consecrate their metal weapons with you, and the war apparatus they have to carry across mountains.

Through this verse, I salute Ganga, Yamuna, Saraswati, Sutudri and along with them you, Parusni, Askini, Marudvrdha, Vitasta, Arjikya, listen oh Susoma.

Wide spreading Trstma, moreover the energetic Rasa, Svetya you as well. You Sindhu, Kubha, Gomati, Krumu, Mehatnu, easy for chariots to pass, born of the clouds.

Captivating, brilliant, your greatness spreads all over, you fill the coffers. Unbounded rivers, active like untiring horses, you look picturesque and wonderfully beautiful.

Good horses, oh rivers, good chariots, good homes, wealth, you provide, oh carriers of ghee. Wool giving, youth giving, enhancers of crops, bringing good luck to homes, oh enhancers of sweetness.

Happiness and pleasure, you give us both, noble rivers, your water, we sprinkle around our food[3]. Great is your glory
oh waters, unbounded, unstoppable, is the fame that you carry"


SO you see, there nothing special about "sindhu" river. In fact the River Ganga Yamuna is the first one's to be saluted.

Agattiyam a book from Sangam Period of Tamil literature is not older than first century B.C.

Agattiyam is the corrupted form of Agastyam which literally means the "words of Rsi Agastya".

Rsi Agastya is mentioned in the ALL the four Veds, in the Ramayana, Mhabharat, Varaha Purana, Agastya Samhita Skanda Purana, and the Dvaidha-Nirnaya Tantra.

So the only way Agastyam was written in the 100 BC was if the Veda's and all the rest of the purans and ithihas were written in the same time frame.

Precession of Earth was known from ancient times to both astronomers and astrologers; and yet Yugas were defined with monstrous figure of billions, or millions of years:

And what happened at the end of Chatur Yuga?.... Answer is Pralaya: destruction, annihilation, The End.

Your Saptarsi calendar don’t seem to take into account Pralaya…. However, as you claim it to be very old… Please provide a reference from any Purana or other ancient source.

Wrong. Precession of the earth was ONLY known and recorded by Indians. No one else know about it. Even the modern day knowledge comes from attempting to decode the ancient Hindu scriptures.

The Prayalam comes at the end of a Kalpa, not at the end of the chatur yuga. That is 155 Trillion years.

The Saptris calendar splits the 27,000 year cycle into four Yuga as per the understanding of the time. It does not talk about the end of the earth or end of time or life.

Bharat Varsha was not referred to entire subcontinent in older times, as I demonstrated earlier. Refuse as much as you like; Facts are facts.

Bharat Varsha did refer to the entire subcontinent , assinged a random date of 100 BC to the puran does not make it any true

Pruans are older than the 'ithihas' like the Mahabharat or the Ramayana. Which is why they are not called 'ithihas' but 'puran' which means 'ancient'.

The fact is that any date assigned to the puran by western christians is meaningless. At best they can assign a date to the palm leaves on which it was written, not the text itself which was passed on by rote learning since thousands of years.

A more appropriate time frame would be 1500 B.C. than before 5000. B.C without elucidating how many millennia before ... ... 10,000BC or 15,000 B.C. ............... and supported by wild claims the ecosystem change and animal, elk and giraffe got extinct...
Drawing of ELK that you posted shows many bovidaes with a pair of horn, and one in center will antlers, which could be Barasingha or Sambar: In Chinese mythology there are creatures resembling giraffes, buts these are considered just mythological creatures.
Why to draw fantastic claims on flimsy references.......

The distinct "Hump" on the animal shows it as a elk and not a deer. Deers don't have the hump.

The branched antlers shows that it is not a bovine.

These are not mythological creatures drawn by people with imagination, the drawings were a historic record. They evidence what was SEEN by the artist. Not what he dreamed up.

Harapan horse myth has been debunked my main stream Archaeologists, with conclusive studies over many decades, contributed by hundreds from many nationalities
The re-writers of history need a horse in IVC, simply because Vedic Culture depended on Horse and chariots;....
And these re-writers of history are proclaiming that IVC is the Vedic Culture.............. Which is absolutely isn't.

Harapan horse is not my concern. The evidence of horse in the Indian subcontinent is overwhelming. From the Vedas to the cave drawing to the multiple archaeological finds.

IVC is vedic because all the civilization in the sub continent was vedic as recorded by the scriptures.

You are assuming that subcontinent remained almost unchanged over long period of times, despite the invasions of Dravidians, Aryans, Greeks, Scythians, Huns,Turkic nations etc.

Languages, cultures, belief system, customs etc. all changed of affected greatly.

Semi mythical records don't judge the archaeological and lisguistic studies, it is the other way round.

No invasion changes the culture of any land. Unless the entire civilization is wiped out like the Native Americans, due to the huge gap in social evolution. Indian civilization and social evolution was the greatest in the world. There is no way anyone could wipe it away. They failed even when they tried, e.g. Islamic invasion and christian invasion.

I am lost to what you are trying to convey.

Abrahamic religion have history that are tribal in Nature. Hindu history is non tribal in nature. The Rishi's have no tribe. The kings have dynasties, not tribal history.

History has nothing to do with religion; in ancient India every thing was steeped in religious dictates, result is Puranas; where myth can't be separated from history. A work can either be a religious text or a history book, but it can be both.

Usual practice is to archaeological and linguistic studies are used to discern the history or mythology: It is not other way round are is your modus oprendi.

Wrong. The only texts that survived are the religious texts due to the rote learning by the Brahmins. Everything else was lost.

You have readily used the Veda's which is a religious text, as a historical text to talk about 'sindhu'.

I live in Lahore; and if visit Taxila, get a statue from 2 B.C. and claim that i came from my backyard;
How would Archaelogy would take this discovery?
If someone dig up Colosseum and bones of tiger are found; How the Archaeology would take that discovery?

A piece of wood found on water, tantamount to nothing if not considered in right context, associated historical timeline, anthropological factors etc. etc.

A circular wooden structure was discovered in a near shore excavation near the Samudranarayan Temple. The underwater structure was made of stones but its lowermost portion was made of wood with wood joined with dowels and nails.

Few correction are in order here, as other party @Sanchez is no longer interested;

Invaluable document were destroyed by inherent element of secrecy, that ancients in this part of world exercised, for almost every branch of knowledge: Result was whole warfare, weapons knowledge lost; medical knowledge lost... no one know many plant mentioned in charak or susrita samhita, uncountable numbers of arts and crafts lost; books upon books lost.............
Muslims actually learned and help to spread the knowlege, so did the British.
In south where the effect of Muslim Conquest was minimal, same thing happened with ancient books and Knowledge.

The knowledge learnt by the invaders does not compensate for the knowledge lost and texts and temple's destroyed. The loss is incalculable.

So why did Chinese build the Great Wall? thousand of miles long:
China was subject to innumerable invasions from time memorable, just like subcontinent.

The great wall of China was built to keep off the Mongols from the North. It failed to do that job. The desert kept them safe from the west, the Himalayas kept them safe from the south and the Seas kept them safe from the west.

Your deep rooted cultural values changed a number of times in last millennia:
Just compare cultural values in cities during last 30 years, then and now.

Advancement in communication, internet, printing press, ease of transport etc. has made it possible for a revolution. That was impossible in an earlier age, much less in ancient India surrounded by the Himalayas and the 3 oceans.

Man word don't came from Hindu, but from the common ancestral language of Indo-European family of languages, please.

It does come from the Hindu first man "Manu". Same being true for Indo-European family of languages.

Hindi is a 19th century concoction by British; an amalgamate of Urdu and Hindustani with lots of vocabulary borrowed from Sanskrit. Don't draw fanciful conclusion, please.

Both Hindu and Urdu has split from the older 'Hindustani" language. Urdu branched to give more importance to non-Indian languages, Hindi branched to give more importance to sanskrit.

You are free to make up your own stories.

British conquered Subcontinent piecemeal; independent states were defeated and made of British empire, some states who acceded were recognized as princely independent states;
Before British subjugation, there was sense of nationhood in Subcontinent, All considered themselves independent till subjugated by other, so continuous wars to win over as mush territory as possible; With some degrees of success to select few:
British Subjugation changed this, when British address all as..............oh you bloody Indians;
All and sundry then started to recognize as themselves as Indians.

When time to go back for British came , then the political scene was fundamentally different; so instead giving governance back from the where they had take, they choose to hand over the governments to elected people, except for the hundreds of independent princely states as it should be clear that these were independent and were not part of package deal.

Sardar Vallabhai Patel and Nehro, thought better of it and grab hold all such states, using military power where necessary, made a part of new Indian state.
Indian nationhood resulted form the British actions in Subcontinent.

The political identity of the nation of India is different from the Cultural Identity , the Social identity and the Religious identity. Its only the political identity that was reformed, not our core identities.

IT was easy to merge the newly freed kingdoms to Bharat a.k.a India because the kings and the kingdom already know about our core identity and had no qualms or issues with the merger.

They just did what came naturally to them. Sardar Patel just happens to be the man who was at the right place at the right time, that is not to diminish his efforts in anyway.

Finally I will not be posting for a month or more since I am travelling abroad for work and will be far to busy to reply. So even if you reply to my post, don't expect any answers. So you get to have a final say.