What's new

Does a fifth gen fighter change the dynamics of aerial warfare in S. Asia?

CriticalThought

SENIOR MEMBER
Joined
Oct 10, 2016
Messages
7,094
Reaction score
13
Country
Pakistan
Location
Australia
In recent years, PAF too brass has shared views on jumping the technology curve to obtain aie superiority. Here we point out the fallacy in this line of thinking.

The concept of stealth as game changer dates back to the 80s and 90s where stealth was designed to specifically fool the radars of that era. Air defence systems have now caught up, utilizing multi-channdl information, including IR signature, to obtain lock. Russian AEWACS are reporting ranges of 600+ km. This means they are able to paint the target using higher energy and discern extremely low return amplitudes. AEWACS also counter NoE tactics that would give a further semblance of stealth. Finally, radars in the VHF/UHF frequencies have been perfected, which negates the stealth of planes like F-22 and F-35.

Information fusion has been claimed as the hallmark of next gen aerial warfare. Yet, information fusion has limits. The sensors on the F-35 can only gather information to a few hundred kilometres. But with AEWACS ranges in the 600+ km range, the fifth gen fighter would be literally blind to the enemy at long range. Combined with VLRAAMs, even the humble Mig-27 would pose a significant danger, harassing the plane while remaining at stand-off distance. A plane such as Su-35 would harrass and close the distance, where the fifth gen aircraft would be no match for its super-maneuversbility.

The true measure of a fifth gen platform is assured kill ratio in the presence of severe electronic jamming. But this requires innovation in missile technology, and electronic warfare.

Lastly, so far, there is no news of an appropriate engine for the J-31. Such an engine would need to exhibit heat distribution that minimizes the heat signature, possibly divert the exhaust plume or cool it down to avoid lock on by IR missiles, and feature stealthy external surfaces.

The fifth gen gambit is a bad decision on the part of PAF, and does not provide any air superiority advantage in its current form.
 
.
Continuous improvement is the name of the game and a generation is only as good as the discrete step taken forward to create a gap between the present and the next plane relative to what technology the enemy possesses.
 
.
Continuous improvement is the name of the game and a generation is only as good as the discrete step taken forward to create a gap between the present and the next plane relative to what technology the enemy possesses.

But there is also such a thing as step in the wrong direction. Such missteps can be disastrous.
 
.
But there is also such a thing as step in the wrong direction. Such missteps can be disastrous.

If the radars have improved, so has the stealthy material and characteristics of the aerial platforms.
Is F-22 still not the best air superiority fighter out there?

And what will you put your bets on?
A jet that is easily detected and taken care of given the amount of sensors in both countries.
Or a jet that is harder to detect and harder to maintain a lock on and which can use various maneuvers and tactics to evade radars, specially when you can remove those advanced radars and make the enemy vulnerable to the stealth?

And what exactly is more dangerous against those advanced radars in the first place? Going in with 5 decades old tech that they will beat in no time or testing them with latest tech that they "might" beat?
 
. .
If the radars have improved, so has the stealthy material and characteristics of the aerial platforms.
Is F-22 still not the best air superiority fighter out there?

Kindly provide a reference for your claim that stealth materials have also become better. Which stealth material can absorb UHF/VHF waves? And FYI, majority of stealth comes from geometry not materials.

And what will you put your bets on?
A jet that is easily detected and taken care of given the amount of sensors in both countries.
Or a jet that is harder to detect and harder to maintain a lock on and which can use various maneuvers and tactics to evade radars, specially when you can remove those advanced radars and make the enemy vulnerable to the stealth?

Which 'old' jet are you talking about?

And OP shows in detail how stealth is obsolete on the modern battlefield.

And what exactly is more dangerous against those advanced radars in the first place? Going in with 5 decades old tech that they will beat in no time or testing them with latest tech that they "might" beat?

Which 5 decades old tech are you talking about? And against a carefully orchestrated Indian AD, your stealth fighter will give you no advantage.
 
.
In recent years, PAF too brass has shared views on jumping the technology curve to obtain aie superiority. Here we point out the fallacy in this line of thinking.

The concept of stealth as game changer dates back to the 80s and 90s where stealth was designed to specifically fool the radars of that era. Air defence systems have now caught up, utilizing multi-channdl information, including IR signature, to obtain lock. Russian AEWACS are reporting ranges of 600+ km. This means they are able to paint the target using higher energy and discern extremely low return amplitudes. AEWACS also counter NoE tactics that would give a further semblance of stealth. Finally, radars in the VHF/UHF frequencies have been perfected, which negates the stealth of planes like F-22 and F-35.

Information fusion has been claimed as the hallmark of next gen aerial warfare. Yet, information fusion has limits. The sensors on the F-35 can only gather information to a few hundred kilometres. But with AEWACS ranges in the 600+ km range, the fifth gen fighter would be literally blind to the enemy at long range. Combined with VLRAAMs, even the humble Mig-27 would pose a significant danger, harassing the plane while remaining at stand-off distance. A plane such as Su-35 would harrass and close the distance, where the fifth gen aircraft would be no match for its super-maneuversbility.

The true measure of a fifth gen platform is assured kill ratio in the presence of severe electronic jamming. But this requires innovation in missile technology, and electronic warfare.

Lastly, so far, there is no news of an appropriate engine for the J-31. Such an engine would need to exhibit heat distribution that minimizes the heat signature, possibly divert the exhaust plume or cool it down to avoid lock on by IR missiles, and feature stealthy external surfaces.

The fifth gen gambit is a bad decision on the part of PAF, and does not provide any air superiority advantage in its current form.

if Russians were successful in PAK-FA and India acquires it what chocie does Pakistan have ?
 
. . . .
if Russians were successful in PAK-FA and India acquires it what chocie does Pakistan have ?
When India attacked Chawinda with 600 tanks we only needed a few good men to tackle it. Similarly if our backs were to be against the wall, we would again need a few more good men and blessings of Allah to come out of it Insha Allah!
 
.
When India attacked Chawinda with 600 tanks we only needed a few good men to tackle it. Similarly if our backs were to be against the wall, we would again need a few more good men and blessings of Allah to come out of it Insha Allah!

*AHEM* Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'aala has also given us guidance that we should prepare ourselves.
 
.
*AHEM* Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'aala has also given us guidance that we should prepare ourselves.
And I hope we are as so should we..

But in the worst scenario ( A hypothetical answer to a hypothetical question) a few good men may ensure that those stealthy planes never fly; it could be a possibility which I am just sayin..
 
.
When India attacked Chawinda with 600 tanks we only needed a few good men to tackle it. Similarly if our backs were to be against the wall, we would again need a few more good men and blessings of Allah to come out of it Insha Allah!
that is a recipe for getting routed
you do not take knives into a gunfight

The Su-35 has recently been added to Indian MMRCA. The 57 is many years away, we need to be buying 35 like NOW.

su-35 is off limits to the PAF. that is a different thread
 
.
that is a recipe for getting routed
you do not take knives into a gunfight
As the good men would say: 'Sarfroshi Ki Tamana Ab Hamare Dil mein hai' (Google for translation should you need to)
 
.

Latest posts

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom