Do you think religion is a personal matter ?

[TheLahoriGuy]

May be the way you ask rights for others is the source of confusion, misunderstanding and fighting ..... instead of your asking rights for them? e.g. if you read an article and straight away assume that whatever is written is true .... and start advocating for rights in a way that is more damaging then helping? I am trying to figure out and suggest only ......

Misunderstandings and fake news would be a problem say if I was out advocating for rights of Muslims in Europe or something. But that's not the case here, simply because I live here. I see the discrimination around me, I can see it when I read their constitutional rights. Let's be honest that as Sunni males we are pretty much on top of the heiarchy and have nothing to gain from this. But how can one claim to be a patriot or a human until he doesn't want that for his neighbour that he has for himself ? These are both human and Islamic values.

 

[I.R.A]

Misunderstandings and fake news would be a problem say if I was out advocating for rights of Muslims in Europe or something. But that's not the case here, simply because I live here. I see the discrimination around me, I can see it when I read their constitutional rights. Let's be honest that as Sunni males we are pretty much on top of the heiarchy and have nothing to gain from this. But how can one claim to be a patriot or a human until he doesn't want that for his neighbour that he has for himself ? These are both human and Islamic values.

Well the intention is noble but how you approach the problem may make others around you uncomfortable. First thing I would suggest is to make others realise that a problem exists, that won't happen if say I make them resist or dislike me. The wisdom is in making others realise that we are unaware of the problem that the problem exists. Second thing is fight for the right causes and cases (by the way this should be the first thing, but anyhow) .... we know how things get exaggerated in our society, even the victims don't shy away from exaggerating, or their cause getting hijacked by malicious people who after extracting there goals and benefits would drop and treat the victims like vermin.

And I am not sunni, neither shia.

 

[LeGenD]

How [you] adhere to Islam is personal. Nobody has the right to [force] you to pray five times a day or keep a beard.

However, Islam is a socio-political phenomenon. A predominantly Muslim society should have an Islamic outlook but receptive to best practices in general.

@Well.wisher

 

[Skies]

Religion is based on believe and speculation.

And it varies from person to person.

So logically it should be personal.

 

[Verve]

If someone goes naked in public how does that bother you?

Ugliness on display is offensive!

What's the difference between a living and a dead organism?

One has water and the other doesn't.

 

[TMA]

Whether it is the Glory of Monarchy or the "tamasha" of Democracy,
If "Deen" is separated from Politics, then all that is left is "Chenghizee".
http://iqbalurdu.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Bal-e-Jibril (با ل جبر یل)

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Religion is based on believe and speculation.

And it varies person to person.

So logically it should be personal.

Over a million British Pakistani's subscribe to the fact that religion is a personel matter in "practice" by electively living in UK. In UK the state provides no support to Islamic values nor does it deter Islamic values. The choice is entirely personel. A million satisfied Pakistani Muslims is proof of success of this policy.

This is living validation of secularism.

 

[M. Sarmad]

[22:41] "They are those who, if we appointed them as rulers on earth, they would establish the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat), and would advocate righteousness and forbid evil. GOD is the ultimate ruler."

Now you can argue modern states and whatever ....... but Quran is not a message for homes (as you accepted), it would be foolish to conclude that message is for the whole humanity but it doesn't require a proper state / authority, it can be practiced within boundary walls of our houses ....... No it cannot.

Well, you have provided an inaccurate translation of a Quranic verse ... !!

http://islamawakened.com/quran/22/41/default.htm

But even this flawed translation doesn't prove your point ... Verse 40 talks about those who have been expelled from their homes, the next verse which you quoted talks about those who have been firmly established on their lands, meaning they are not persecuted, they (the righteous) will establish prayers and pay Zakat ... Nowhere does this verse talk about "State enforcing Qur'an", not to mention "the concept of state" ... Not sure what you are really on about

Zulqarnain, Suleman, Yousaf, Ibrahim, Nooh, Loot, Musa, Essa (the most helpless Messenger according to traditions), Muhammad ... Peace be upon all of them ..... were given authority ........ and authority without a system is useless, and a system without a state is meaningless.

Yes, as I stated earlier, only a few of them were given kingdoms/authority, not all of them ...

 

[I.R.A]

But even this flawed translation doesn't prove your point ... Verse 40 talks about those who have been expelled from their homes, the next verse which you quoted talks about those who have been firmly established on their lands, meaning they are not persecuted, they (the righteous) will establish prayers and pay Zakat ... Nowhere does this verse talk about "State enforcing Qur'an", not to mention "the concept of state" ... Not sure what you are really on about

Power, authority, establish ........ on this Earth ....... whichever way you look at it, it is not hard to understand that all these words point towards ruling the Earth.

If you are taking meaning of word Salat Salah ....... as a 5 time ritual ...... then you are limiting the scope, this also means to establish and implement the system. That is why Salat and Zakat have been mentioned together multiple times.

I am not on about anything ..... you already know what I am really on about. Rule, governance, state, system, tax, and daily life ..... everything is mentioned in Quran ...... if you have better system than Quran that you wish to implement please do let me know .... for my knowledge. Otherwise I don't understand the resistance to a very simple concept.

Yes, as I stated earlier, only a few of them were given kingdoms/authority, not all of them ...

Okay ........ suppose even if I accept your point that not all of them were given authority ..... but does that negate the fact that ruling the Earth, establishing Islamic system, Islamic state is nothing new and has been mentioned in Quran?

 

[M. Sarmad]

Power, authority, establish ........ on this Earth ....... whichever way you look at it, it is not hard to understand that all these words point towards ruling the Earth.

If you are taking meaning of word Salat Salah ....... as a 5 time ritual ...... then you are limiting the scope, this also means to establish and implement the system. That is why Salat and Zakat have been mentioned together multiple times.

You claimed that the Qur'an "clearly" mentions the concept of state ... And now you are saying that establishing Salat/prayer means establishing Islamic system/state !! .. Clearly, word "clearly" is understood by us quite differently ....

Okay ........ suppose even if I accept your point that not all of them were given authority ..... but does that negate the fact that ruling the Earth, establishing Islamic system, Islamic state is nothing new and has been mentioned in Quran?

Establishing Islamic state has not been mentioned in the Holy Qur'an ... It's just your interpretation .... ISIS has their own interpretation ... They agree with you that Allah has ordered to establish Islamic state, but then they have a different understanding of what an Islamic state is (or should be) based on their own understanding of Qur'an and Hadith ..... It's a slippery slope

I am not on about anything ..... you already know what I am really on about. Rule, governance, state, system, tax, and daily life ..... everything is mentioned in Quran ...... if you have better system than Quran that you wish to implement please do let me know .... for my knowledge. Otherwise I don't understand the resistance to a very simple concept.

I believe “Surely Allah's guidance, that is the (true) guidance”. And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, you shall have no guardian from Allah, nor any helper ... " (2:120) .... We disagree on "implementation" part, and that whether or not an Islamic State is required to benefit from the Book of Guidance

 

[Verve]

This is living validation of secularism.

Secularism Ka pujaari.

UK govs have murdered millions of Muslims around the globe. That's the reality of this secularism.

 

[Godman]

Secularism Ka pujaari.

UK govs have murdered millions of Muslims around the globe. That's the reality of this secularism.

Way to go. Lets drag completely unrelated thing as a proof against secularism.
What does British Imperialism has to do with secularism again?

Muslim countries have murdered millions of Muslims as well, what about that?

The "reality" of secularism is people are free to believe what they want and are not chained by centuries old laws that can't be changed because a bunch of bigots can't think for themselves and another bunch wants to use such laws to their advantage to commit acts like Pedophillia and child abuse legally.

 

[TheLahoriGuy]

Secularism Ka pujaari.

UK govs have murdered millions of Muslims around the globe. That's the reality of this secularism.

They murdered them in the name of secularism ? Muslims have murdered millions of Muslims around the globe. So do you even have a point or do you run your mouth without thinking ?

 

[Indus Pakistan]

UK govs have murdered millions of Muslims around the globe. That's the reality of this secularism.

The other reality is you, yes you are vicariously responsible for that murder of Muslims that you cry for after you have got treated in the local NHS hospital and over a feast of meat pizza with extra toppings of jalapeno.

How so? Unless you don't breath, piss or eat you must be paying taxes to the UK government - directly if your a*ss is employed or even indirectly if your a*ss is unemployed or self-employed by such things as VAT etc. Your tax money payed for those bullets that tore up some poor Syrian's childs head.

So what you gonna do about? Make your disgust known by hauling your a*ss out of this secularist hell that murders Muslims and stop paying taxes to the murderous UK government? Na ... yeh need your money with the Queens head stamped on it. Yippee yee the sterling pound is more mightier then Muslims.

Now fill in your excuse here [ >looking after some near/dear one or a student/something else<]

On general referance of British murder of peoples, the biggest victims have arguably been Indian [Bengali/Bihari] in 1943 when over 3 million were starved to death. I won't go into the mass genocide of African slaves. But the fact is all empire/countries have blood on their hand. Left leaning communists, right leaning facists, middle of the road liberals, religious or areligious all or most countries that had the means have done something horrid at some time.

Lest I forget. Pakistan. 1971. Ask the Bangaaas here ...

 

[TheLahoriGuy]

The other reality is you, yes you are vicariously responsible for that murder of Muslims that you cry for after you have got treated in the local NHS hospital and over a feast of meat pizza with extra toppings of jalapeno.

How so? Unless you don't breath, piss or eat you must be paying taxes to the UK government - directly if your a*ss is employed or even indirectly if your a*ss is unemployed or self-employed by such things as VAT etc. Your tax money payed for those bullets that tore up some poor Syrian's childs head.

So what you gonna do about? Make your disgust known by hauling your a*ss out of this secularist hell that murders Muslims and stop paying taxes to the murderous UK government? Na ... yeh need your money with the Queens head stamped on it. Yippee yee the sterling pound is more mightier then Muslims.

Now fill in your excuse here [ >looking after some near/dear one or a student/something else<]

On general referance of British murder of peoples, the biggest victims have arguably been Indian [Bengali/Bihari] in 1943 when over 3 million were starved to death. I won't go into the mass genocide of African slaves. But the fact is all empire/countries have blood on their hand. Left leaning communists, right leaning facists, middle of the road liberals, religious or areligious all or most countries that had the means have done something horrid at some time.

Lest I forget. Pakistan. 1971. Ask the Bangaaas here ...

Lol so much this.
Ironically whenever secularism is in question the biggest haters of the idea are the ones enjoying the fruits of secularism in the first place. Coincidentally they are also the same people advocating for shariah law in Pakistan. Its simple, if you don't like being treated as an equal then leave the country and if you want to live under the shariah then migrate to Muslim lands.