Do you think religion is a personal matter ?

[Indus Pakistan]

The biggest haters of the idea are the ones enjoying the fruits of secularism in the first place.

 

[araz]

Hi ,
Do u think religion should be a personal matter or not ?

I believe on it in a sense that while meeting people, going out , working etc ... religion should be kept personal .
We should not judge anyone's act on religious bases while we should be broad minded .
And that we should not judge anyone's deeds , good or bad based on religion . Whether we follow religion or do ibadat, we should not go on boasting about it .

However , discussing with friends or good positive preaching is a good thing .


What do u think ?

I think the answer is some where in between. I know of No one who is a good muslim who will advertize his deen by boasting about it. So someone who boasts about his religion is showing off and his deeds will be judged accordingly. The problem arises in our day to day living. For instance, I live in UK and my mates often go oht in the evening for a drink. From there they go for a meal. Now I tell them I am not allowed in a pub but will join them for a meal provided they do not order Alcohol. Is that showing off or what should I do? I take the view that those who are my friends will accept me for who I am and oblige me if they want my company. They will finish off the meal and then go to the pub again but I will say my goodbye to them. Is this wrong?
Similarly if it is time for prayers I will excuse myself and go to the back of the restaurant and say my prayers. I call it as my metting time with my maker. They can order and I will do my faraidh and join them. If they are going movies and I like the movie I will go otherwise excuse myself. This is a matter of choice. They now know better to ask me to go to a Night club or Cabaret. I will just politely say no. If anyone asks me why, I just say I dont want to.
There are times when my beliefs are called into question. I politely listen to other people's point of view and then express mine. The response is invatiably in the range of"Oh! I never thought of it this way--- to Oh you know I am not very religious!" The point is one can exist in a western society and still interact with the local people but still hold on to one's deen firmly. Just have a broad s.ile on your face and be nice to everyone. People in the West especially the UK are very understanding. However if you come across a bigot either change the topic or if pressed express your view point without any hesitation. The favourite ones that come out are"your Prophet was a paedophile" or "how many wives do you have? Arent muslims supposed to have 4" . The response is just one and not everyone has 4 wives. Can you imagine the headache!!" That invariably diffuses tension. The point I make is you need to have confidence in what you are doing. If you are convinced that it is right and satisfied with it why change? A muslim is a walking talking and living example of Islam if you follow the deen correctly. A great majority of people actually envy that.
I hope I have explained myself well.
A

 

[ddlee96969]

10% education 10%culture 10%country 10%race 10%family 10%friend 10%history 10%economy 10%politics 10%other
i am sure my answer is not prefect. .i need a golden ratio .who can tell my a better ratio.
so i do not think religion is a personal matter
by the way i am an atheist.

 

[Well.wisher]

I think the answer is some where in between. I know of No one who is a good muslim who will advertize his deen by boasting about it. So someone who boasts about his religion is showing off and his deeds will be judged accordingly. The problem arises in our day to day living. For instance, I live in UK and my mates often go oht in the evening for a drink. From there they go for a meal. Now I tell them I am not allowed in a pub but will join them for a meal provided they do not order Alcohol. Is that showing off or what should I do? I take the view that those who are my friends will accept me for who I am and oblige me if they want my company. They will finish off the meal and then go to the pub again but I will say my goodbye to them. Is this wrong?
Similarly if it is time for prayers I will excuse myself and go to the back of the restaurant and say my prayers. I call it as my metting time with my maker. They can order and I will do my faraidh and join them. If they are going movies and I like the movie I will go otherwise excuse myself. This is a matter of choice. They now know better to ask me to go to a Night club or Cabaret. I will just politely say no. If anyone asks me why, I just say I dont want to.
There are times when my beliefs are called into question. I politely listen to other people's point of view and then express mine. The response is invatiably in the range of"Oh! I never thought of it this way--- to Oh you know I am not very religious!" The point is one can exist in a western society and still interact with the local people but still hold on to one's deen firmly. Just have a broad s.ile on your face and be nice to everyone. People in the West especially the UK are very understanding. However if you come across a bigot either change the topic or if pressed express your view point without any hesitation. The favourite ones that come out are"your Prophet was a paedophile" or "how many wives do you have? Arent muslims supposed to have 4" . The response is just one and not everyone has 4 wives. Can you imagine the headache!!" That invariably diffuses tension. The point I make is you need to have confidence in what you are doing. If you are convinced that it is right and satisfied with it why change? A muslim is a walking talking and living example of Islam if you follow the deen correctly. A great majority of people actually envy that.
I hope I have explained myself well.
A

No disagreement with what u said .

What I like most aboit u is that u don't judge your friends drinking nd imposing fatwas on them . This is what I want this soceity as . Many people in our soceity are not that broad minded and will resort to attack or declare the person as kafir they see doing such in public.
Whether u do sin or u do good deed , it's your own business nd no one' should b allowed to point at u and declare u kafir or judge u and insult u . This is wrong .


God's way is peaceful and if u wish someone to be in God's way then you must be also merciful and non judgemental like Your Lord Allah swt.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

10% education 10%culture 10%country 10%race 10%family 10%friend 10%history 10%economy 10%politics 10%other
i am sure my answer is not prefect. .i need a golden ratio .who can tell my a better ratio.
so i do not think religion is a personal matter
by the way i am an atheist.

Hello my athiest friend. I hope you don't mind but I am struggling to understand what your trying to say. And salute to the athiest CCP. The CCP need's to be reified as a god of the athiest world for having done more good to more humanity then any other political group in our times. Don't believe it? Check out what our Islamic Republic delivered us. Poverty, corruption, lawlessness, terrorism, bigotry and more corruption in Pakistan.

 

[araz]

No disagreement with what u said .

What I like most aboit u is that u don't judge your friends drinking nd imposing fatwas on them . This is what I want this soceity as . Many people in our soceity are not that broad minded and will resort to attack or declare the person as kafir they see doing such in public.
Whether u do sin or u do good deed , it's your own business nd no one' should b allowed to point at u and declare u kafir or judge u and insult u . This is wrong .


God's way is peaceful and if u wish someone to be in God's way then you must be also merciful and non judgemental like Your Lord Allah swt.

I would be harsher on a muslim if he drank in front of me. What I refer to is my interaction with my non muslim friends. There are various problems when dealing with a Muslim friend. Allah tells us in the Quran to talk to them softly and wisely. Hlwever if they do not desist I will leave their company permanently explaining to them thatMy Prophet taught me that "you will be counted like the friends that you have". I may like them but not enough to spoil my Aaqibah for them. So no I will not shout and rave and pass judgement on them for the simple reason that they are not going to be judged by me. Who knows Allah may give them hidayyah and show them the way. However if they do not listen then part company with them.
The problem in our society is a lot of people live double lives in that they may stay with you and not drink andd be very sociable, pleasant and loving but have another group where they drink and do other things which I dislike. This is a much more complex situation as their habits do not affect what you do with them.
A

 

[ddlee96969]

Hello my athiest friend. I hope you don't mind but I am struggling to understand what your trying to say. And salute to the athiest CCP. The CCP need's to be reified as a god of the athiest world for having done more good to more humanity then any other political group in our times. Don't believe it? Check out what our Islamic Republic delivered us. Poverty, corruption, lawlessness, terrorism, bigotry and more corruption in Pakistan.

sorry for my poor english. i am practising my english
i would be a muslin if i was born in pakistan. i would be a buddhist if i was born in nepal
i mean a presonal matter is influenced by a lot of factors.
i do not think islamic is the root of pakistani problem. turkey is a good exampl.
terrorism is not the fault of pakistan. we knew what did usa do in middle east and Afghanistan.
Poverty, corruption and lawlessness are not an unique problem of pakistan. china russia and indian face the same problems .
please forget the propaganda of westen. islamic is not the root of all faults. democracy can not solve every problem.
deng xiao ping said "No matter if it is a white cat or a black cat, a cat that can catch rats is a good cat!"
i hope pakistani can find islamic economic modle in future.

 

[Verve]

Way to go. Lets drag completely unrelated thing as a proof against secularism.
What does British Imperialism has to do with secularism again?

Muslim countries have murdered millions of Muslims as well, what about that?

The "reality" of secularism is people are free to believe what they want and are not chained by centuries old laws that can't be changed because a bunch of bigots can't think for themselves and another bunch wants to use such laws to their advantage to commit acts like Pedophillia and child abuse legally.

They murdered them in the name of secularism ? Muslims have murdered millions of Muslims around the globe. So do you even have a point or do you run your mouth without thinking ?

The other reality is you, yes you are vicariously responsible for that murder of Muslims that you cry for after you have got treated in the local NHS hospital and over a feast of meat pizza with extra toppings of jalapeno.

How so? Unless you don't breath, piss or eat you must be paying taxes to the UK government - directly if your a*ss is employed or even indirectly if your a*ss is unemployed or self-employed by such things as VAT etc. Your tax money payed for those bullets that tore up some poor Syrian's childs head.

So what you gonna do about? Make your disgust known by hauling your a*ss out of this secularist hell that murders Muslims and stop paying taxes to the murderous UK government? Na ... yeh need your money with the Queens head stamped on it. Yippee yee the sterling pound is more mightier then Muslims.

Now fill in your excuse here [ >looking after some near/dear one or a student/something else<]

On general referance of British murder of peoples, the biggest victims have arguably been Indian [Bengali/Bihari] in 1943 when over 3 million were starved to death. I won't go into the mass genocide of African slaves. But the fact is all empire/countries have blood on their hand. Left leaning communists, right leaning facists, middle of the road liberals, religious or areligious all or most countries that had the means have done something horrid at some time.

Lest I forget. Pakistan. 1971. Ask the Bangaaas here ...

... Gosh, I must have stepped on your secular nuts really hard there to get these replies!

Pakistani system and Islamic foundations (that you all love to curse) have never been responsible for mass murders that secularist UK governments have been. Until such happens, keep "pleasing" yourself with your secularism shoved deep ...

 

[Hold up]

For Muslims it's based on Islam because for Muslims Islam is the first and last thing they stand with and always will stand with. We give a dam about other criteria of judging. For me what is assuming is those people who believe in GOD being creator and still think they know better than GOD

 

[Godman]

... Gosh, I must have stepped on your secular nuts really hard there to get these replies!

Pakistani system and Islamic foundations (that you all love to curse) have never been responsible for mass murders that secularist UK governments have been. Until such happens, keep "pleasing" yourself with your secularism shoved deep ...

What does British Imperialism has to do with Secularism?
Repeating the same thing is't going to push your argument.

What benefit has the great Paksitani Islamic system done to either Pakistan or Islam? Secular and Atheist nations are prospering and so is religion in them. Islam does far better in secular countries than in actual Islamic countries.
Both Islam and Politics have become corrupt in many Islamic nations.
Many European nations divided the Church and the State for a very good reason
Putting religion in governance and law doesn't result in god coming down to rule the nation into a paradise. Its Humans that rule the country regardless of the situation.

i do not think islamic is the root of pakistani problem. turkey is a good exampl.

Turkey is a poor example considering Turkey accepted secularism

 

[I.R.A]

You claimed that the Qur'an "clearly" mentions the concept of state ... And now you are saying that establishing Salat/prayer means establishing Islamic system/state !! .. Clearly, word "clearly" is understood by us quite differently ....

Salat is not prayer only ..... you are trying to take benefit of the traditional meaning and understanding of this word and reducing its scope. When you say this I don't see a difference between you and a traditional conservative Mullah.

Clearly is clear enough when you look at the message of Quran and link different instructions, advice, guidance, narrations ....... and understand it as a whole (Tasreef ul ayat). Reducing Quran to be understood and implemented within one's own house is honestly a grave undermining of and restriction put on a great source of guidance. Quran is not an ordinary book which can be divided into chapters and each chapter and verse can be understood in isolation. I provided you with reference of a verse that gave guarantee of the rule on Earth, but it won't happen just because we want it, it would happen only when we struggle and strive to implement the Quranic system. I informed you of the Messengers that they were given authority, rule and kingdoms, to support my point that Islam in whatever period it was, it was never for life hereafter (to be practiced in corners of our houses) but for prosperity, development, happiness in this world too (now how that is possible without a system?). You do understand that there are prerequisites before a true Islamic state can be established? Sort of say chosen people based on their struggle .....

Establishing Islamic state has not been mentioned in the Holy Qur'an ... It's just your interpretation .... ISIS has their own interpretation ... They agree with you that Allah has ordered to establish Islamic state, but then they have a different understanding of what an Islamic state is (or should be) based on their own understanding of Qur'an and Hadith ..... It's a slippery slope

ISIS, Mullah, Shia, Sunni, Deobandi, Barailwee, Qadiyani, Hezbullah etc are all followers of their own religions and not Deen. If they were they won't be fighting each other and calling each other Kafir .... don't worry as long as sectarianism is alive the kind of Islamic state I support is never going to happen. I am not supportive of slavery, sex slavery, four virgin wives, owning women as a property, killing of apostates, infidels, pagans and minorities ...... see if you find a similarity between me and ISIS.

I hope you are aware of the verses where authority being delegated to humans has been mentioned. In presence of so many verses to back a Quranic system, you are asking for a certificate ...... Muslims have been guaranteed rule on Earth, but which Muslims? The ones who would practice their own religion in their houses, thinking their neighbor is a kafir because he / she follows a different sect? ...... or the Muslims who would be willing to fight for any oppressed human irrespective of their class, creed, color .... ? The answer is there in Quran.

The reason Mullahs of all the sects failed to come up with a definition of Muslim .... when asked.

I believe “Surely Allah's guidance, that is the (true) guidance”. And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, you shall have no guardian from Allah, nor any helper ... " (2:120) .... We disagree on "implementation" part, and that whether or not an Islamic State is required to benefit from the Book of Guidance

The same book of Divine guidance, I believe says something like .... if you are that capable bring a verse like Quran's verse, to the humans.

 

[Verve]

Secular and Atheist nations are prospering and so is religion in them

Islam is the reason behind Europe's rise out of dark ages and moving away from Church, not secularism. Go study history.

Did Europe become all Muslim despite Muslim lands being well ahead in every field for hundreds of years?

Almost all of the developed nations of West have looted and plundered Africa and Asia. Had they not, they wouldn't have got to where they are now! And there is absolutely no doubt in that!

The Crusaders have become secular and atheists, and the bloodshed continues.

 

[Godman]

Islam is the reason behind Europe's rise out of dark ages and moving away from Church, not secularism. Go study history.

Did Europe become all Muslim despite Muslim lands being well ahead in every field for hundreds of years?

Almost all of the developed nations of West have looted and plundered Africa and Asia. Had they not, they wouldn't have got to where they are now! And there is absolutely no doubt in that!

The Crusaders have become secular and atheists, and the bloodshed continues.

What did China loot? What did Singapore loot? Instead of ranting nonsense about the evils of secularism and greatness of a "Islamic System" that results in corrupt Mullahs using religion for personal benefit while politicians use religion as a political tool to take power and fill their pockets and bank accounts. And lets not forget legalized pedophilia and child abuse all because a bunch of brain dead idiots can't think for themselves

The wealth taken from looting by the Europeans went away pretty quickly and after the end of WW2 there wasn't much left of that.
Not sure what your radical Mullahs brainwashed you with but the only thing Islam did to boost the arrival of Enlightenment was the Ottomans taking over Constantipole.
Do you even know who the crusaders are? It looks like you are using the ISIS propaganda calling the western nations "crusaders". Its rather obvious you are influenced by radical Islamists . The Crusades are long over, the fantasies of fighting the new crusaders spread by organizations like ISIS are nothing more than a fantasy. The Medival age ended centuries ago

 

[HeinzG]

Islam is the reason behind Europe's rise out of dark ages and moving away from Church, not secularism. Go study history.

Did Europe become all Muslim despite Muslim lands being well ahead in every field for hundreds of years?

Almost all of the developed nations of West have looted and plundered Africa and Asia. Had they not, they wouldn't have got to where they are now! And there is absolutely no doubt in that!

The Crusaders have become secular and atheists, and the bloodshed continues.

Yes. But you are moving away from the point here. Europe rose out of the dark ages thanks to the intellectual wealth of the Byzantine empire which was transferred to Italy after the fall of the Constantinople. Those are just indirect result of Islam not the direct ones.

Muslims were never ahead of every field. This is also a misconception. Muslims were better in some fields like light cavalry tactics. But they failed or equaled the Europeans in other fields. Moreover, many intellectual achievement marketed by the Muslims were actually came from India such as astronomy, numeral system etc.,

Not every European Nation plundered Africa or Asia. Germany and France rose almost entirely through their own achievements. Besides, Muslims were also looted and plundered many lands they seemed fit. So I don't think it is fair to point your finger at Europeans for that matter.

Why are you blaming Crusaders? They were just asserting their rights for their holy land. It was Muslims that had desecrated it. If there were no Muslim conquest there should not have been any Crusaders.

An interesting topic. There is a widespread belief that Indians have a propensity to colour-based and even genetic racism; some of Gandhi's most loopy remarks are quoted as evidence.

I think, as I said, that it's rather complex.

Open a thread; let's talk about it, I'd like to get some other Indian opinions on this too, but give it till tomorrow.

Count me in Please.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Yes. But you are moving away from the point here. Europe rose out of the dark ages thanks to the intellectual wealth of the Byzantine empire which was transferred to Italy after the fall of the Constantinople. Those are just indirect result of Islam not the direct ones.

Muslims were never ahead of every field. This is also a misconception. Muslims were better in some fields like light cavalry tactics. But they failed or equaled the Europeans in other fields. Moreover, many intellectual achievement marketed by the Muslims were actually came from India such as astronomy, numeral system etc.,

Not every European Nation plundered Africa or Asia. Germany and France rose almost entirely through their own achievements. Besides, Muslims were also looted and plundered many lands they seemed fit. So I don't think it is fair to point your finger at Europeans for that matter.

Why are you blaming Crusaders? They were just asserting their rights for their holy land. It was Muslims that had desecrated it. If there were no Muslim conquest there should not have been any Crusaders.



Count me in Please.

Gladly. Let's get the group together. I'd be very happy to take an active part in the discussion, but one of you younger people needs to do the shepherding of the flock (even three would be good enough).